Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General BG3, DOS and the D&D rule-set

I still found PoE2 combat tiresome until the they came out with the turn based system. And while PoE did somethings better -- the freedom to ignore the main plot and just explore -- the story suffered some.

Don't get me wrong, I want the PoE engine to be used for a future BG game! I just don't think they will do it by going further away from the rules. 5th ed is just better than the 3.5 / 4th hybrid that Obsidian designed.

(OT but: I have no way to prove this but I question those sales numbers -- sales numbers are now based on steam sales but the classic RtwP games were sold on platforms / mediums that didn't track numbers as well. No way to prove this really but I don't think we really know how many copies of the IE games sold)

I'd find it interesting if that was their reasoning, that is, 5e combat is not fun.
Because Solasta is implementing 5e combat almost to a fault, and people are praising it as the best thing in the game.

I compared it with other RTwP games that came out shortly after PoE / PoE2, hence classic in "".
As for them, we can easily compare sales.

That is only one interpretation, though. I daresay that the market and the audience for CRPGs was never that great to begin with. Obsidian was the first, delivered and it was well-received. And that sparked a sort-of revival of the genre that the players could not fill. Tyranny, for example, is an even better game than PoE, it is simpler, more accessible, threw away a lot of the ballast of PoE (like it's successor) and also told a very fresh story with very high replay value, yet was not hugely popular. I daresay the biggest issue of PoE 2 is the setting. It simply came four years after the pirate hype in the media was over and everyone was saturated. Gameplay-wise it was what BG2 was to BG1, but it did lack a fitting arch-enemy, Irenicus is just an unavoidable villain.

So I would put the "failure" of PoE2 down to the setting and to a lesser extent, the story, with an audience that is smaller and more unforgiving than expected.

There is no point in comparing these games. Solasta doesn't even have 2k reviews on Steam where BG is over 25k.
In addition, both games have a different target audience as well as different budgets.
Solasta as it's a small niche game whose creators can afford to please only D&D fans, which is not possible in the case of BG.

Yes, that's why inviting fans of BG to what they wanted to do seems...strange. Larian had to know this kind of threads will pop up ^^ I think it would have been "safer" to start of with a D&D game not related to BG and then move in into BG3 eventually?

Like i have to admit simply poiting at BG while being clearly focused on dos when it comes to the gameplay they want ultimately works as a formula. I think those who whine the most expected more " patting on the back". More things showing that you're back in BG series. Hard to blame them really, BG still sells 20 years after it's success ^^ Not many games which achieved this.

There are always people who will say " it's not the same". Every series be it games , films or anything else have this problem.

I totally think BG3 put aside some of the features from BG2 it didn't need to though. More " winks" towards the old bastards known more commonly as BG fans wouldn't hurt. Which exactly we discuss daily on this forum in other threads. This thread is clearly a " my butt hurts" one.

Makes a lot of sense comparing these games because they are both party isometric RPGS based on the same system. Having 2k reviews on Steam doesn't change that.
They have the same audience as well, which is fans of isometric RPGs.

And if Larian wants the game to sell more they SHOULD follow the rules closely since tabletop D&D fanbase is far bigger than DoS. Have you seem how (more) massive D&D has become in the last 5 years?

Do you really think most D&D fans will buy this game even if it's 100% RAW D&D? I sincerely doubt.
As for those who buy it, I doubt most would care about the modified rules if the game is good.
Of course, there will be those who will not buy for this reason, but it will be a definite minority.
In addition, the computer game is governed by different rules than PnP.
A large part of the players will be people who do not have contact with D&D on a daily basis, or those who don't play regularly.

+1

Yes, I think that following 5e more closely will bring in more D&D players. Speaking for myself, being able to see your tabletop character in action is a huge selling point.

The whole point of comparing BG3 to Solasta is that Solasta is implementing 5e rules almost literally, and it works effectively. Solasta addresses most common complaints regarding BG3's combat, which are related to things that players should be able to do according to 5e rules but can't.

On the subject of PoE2 (Pillars of eternity 2 , deadfire) I really think the game is criminally under-rated.
The modding community is very active (this is a super easy game to mod for apparently) Particularly with all the current mods the game feels great (community patch, deadfire tweaks, enhanced user interface, more AI conditions, wizard revisions, The funnening improved classes etc... ) Please give it a chance. Most little nit-pick has basically been addressed. I adore the setting and atmosphere. Only played it in realtime/pause not that clanky <takes forever> turn based mode.
I prefer the music to BG3.
I prefer the atmosphere (realtime day/night cycles, overworld map travel, NPCs reacting to you AND weather and other stuff...etc...)
I prefer the UI and dialogues.
And basically lots and lots of cool little details.

So like they said right there, they started with a strict port of the rules, then had to start adjusting things to make a more enjoyable video game. That's not "deceptive", it's having a different opinion than you about how much house ruling is acceptable in making a D&D video game. They aren't sitting around in their board room cackling and twirling moustaches, saying, "We will make those suckers BELIEVE that this is based on D&D, but we always intended it to be completely NOT D&D, hahahahahaha!" You can disagree with their specific rules changes and design philosophies all you want, say that Solasta does it better or whatever, but you don't have any grounds to say that they are deliberately being "deceptive". They're trying to make the best D&D game they can, for the largest audience.

So did you actually enjoy how Kingmaker made your party both encumbered and exhausted practically all the time? Because that was not an element that I liked at all.

Limit on weight isn't a enjoyable feature for sure, but necessary or you'll be carrying around 90 potatoes that weigh 8 pounds lol

I have imagined PC with a large sack of potatoes on his back.
Agony suits you, suffering less so
Now I know what she meant to.

Yeah but -- as you know -- precisely nobody is asking for that. Or to make us find diamonds to raise people from the dead. Or to have people remove armor at night before they sleep. But there have been some fun, faithful ports of D&D combat rules -- ToEE, BG1 & 2, IWD were more faithful ports of the rulesets of their respective editions than is BG3 to 5th ed. and combat was very fun.

Sure, once I started understanding the system I GREATLY enjoyed that it forced me to be wary of that aspect and it gave me genuine benefits for paying attention to it.

What's best, at the same time between "bags of holdings" and a generic understanding of what was valuable and what not it made it fairly easy to manage. Far less busywork than the current management of the bags in BG3 involves.

I always traveled trying to stay "light" or at worst medium at the beginning (when I was packing rations) and as a result I could travel in a single day 4-5 times the distance of when the party was heavily encumbered.
That's precisely what allowed me to complete the first major goal in under a month and get that sweet +2 dueling sword as a bonus reward, for instance (and even later in the game, to hardly ever suffer from the restriction of "time limits" to complete questlines).

That's per person for sure, not enjoying BG1 combat at all atm. I could walk down stairs, get some coffee, and these dorks would still be swinging away.

Yep. I've never understood why so many people say the combat in the original BG games was so great. I mean, it was fun at the time, but at the time I didn't know any better. And then they say the combat in Planescape: Torment is so much "worse" than BG, but that boggles my mind as well, since it's the same damn combat.

Did you know that the original creators of BG1 and BG2, had begun creating a BG3 that had *nothing* to do with the previous stories, with NONE of the previous characters and was going to be turn-based. LOL

I wonder how some here would have reacted to "Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound (2003)" from Black Isle Studios (dev) and to Interplay (planned publisher).

nb : I am not saying it was necessary to use the term Baldur's Gate 3, but Black Isle Studios had some rights for that term/IP, but not of other names, so they had planned on using it. Of course, Larian is not the original creators of BG1 and BG2, so it is not the same decision/choice and is of course about marketing. Still ironic to see the original BG3 was going to be a whole different story with turn-base combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_III:_The_Black_Hound

( sorry if it was stated before in this thread, but it is 54 pages long )