Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Astarion and Sebille

I've always seen Lawful Evil as the one with the 'higher calling', if you will, while Neutral Evil as kind of like the out-for-themselves chaotic neutral but willing to go the extra step

I think what makes him chaotic is that his current goal is quite crazy, wanting to control the tadpoles straight out of the bat despite knowing jack about them, and he also wants to kill as much people as he can while pursuing it. A lawful evil, like Lae'zel, or a neutral evil, like SH, would be way more practical, which they are.

I think Gale has the potential for an arc, but not so much focused around redemption as dealing with hubris. Lae'zel also doesn't seem to be headed for redemption, exactly, just realizing that her ideals and reality don't measure up, and deciding what to do about it.

I really don't think so. He said he just wants to kill his master and be free. I know he can lie but his dialogues are quite consistent in this matter.

Also, there is this moment in the game

I think his greatest dream is just to be free (obviously). Maybe later he'd like to become an important person in the city once again or something, but to be honest I didn't find any evidence in the game for him wanting to be a vampire lord. On the contrary even. I think it's natural to assume he wants to be an evil powerful vampire because he is an evil character and a vampire slave, but his plot doesn't seem to go there, at least for now. Who knows, maybe he can change his mind in Act 2 - or maybe PC can change his mind - but for now I'm pretty sure he doesn't want it.

Of course he could do it if it were the only way to break free from Cazador.

She's lawful neutral. She has none of the characteristics which would indicate that she is neutral evil - people just seem blinded by the alignment of her goddess.

Still think my alignment allocations, such as they are hold weight

Astarion: Neutral Evil (chaotic leaning)
Lae'zel: Neutral Evil (Lawful leaning)
Shadowheart: Lawful Neutral (Evil leaning)
Gale: Neutral Evil
Wyll: Chaotic Neutral (Good leaning)

No, he first says that he can become a coven leader, and then he says, "well, or we can just kill him." And he wants to control the worm, but why? He likes the power.

Pretty sure she'd have no powers if she didn't belive/follow the teachings of her neutral evil goddess. Not 100% about it, guessing it works like for paladins, but i'd disagree even if it wasn't so based on what we're shown in the game. She very clearly puts her needs above those of others, and is also very much willing to commit evil acts if they benefit her.

I would say she's a special flair of neutral evil, though. She's obviously got an instinctual sense of what's good and what's evil, it's just that she was brought up by the latter. Reminds me of Morrigan from DA:O actually.

I think freedom in this context is usually a euphemism for any hierarchical system that subsumes the individual will, Lawful alignments believe in a reciprocity of actions regulated by a third-party, in a society these are Laws, personally it's some kind of personal ethic that regulates your interactions with others and which you expect to see reciprocated. Chaotic alignments see this as a pretense towards tyranny, and believe there can be no law, third-party, or ethic that can be expected to replicate such reciprocity. So Astarion can have a personal code that totally self-interested and it doesn't make him Lawful, because he doesn't see himself as being subject to a external hierarchy. The difference for a Neutral character is that they don't believe in hierarchies per se but in unstructured principals that dictate actions without subsuming an individual's will, but also don't view the gratification of your own will as an ends unto themselves.

Did I mention how murky this is?

Does that mean there can be no organized religion for chaotic/neutral gods?

It was my understanding that Astarion wants to control the worm, because it's the only thing preventing him from falling under his master's compulsion (don't D&D vampires have some mind controlling powers?).

That would only be an issue if they force you to redeem Astarion, I'm with you %100 on gating characterization behind a romance plot.
The most interesting character quests in BG:2 were the ones where you had an influence on the alignment of your companion, if they didn't continue this in BG:3 I think it would be a huge missed opportunity

We don't know for sure. We can only guess at his true causes. But when you talk to him, he first says that he can drink the master's blood, and only then adds that we can also just kill him. Doesn't that indicate his priorities? By the way, I strongly regret that I looked at the spoiler... I mean, you're talking about something that's not officially available.

Could you please ... not answer me with that information?.. Thanks.

Exactly. He is interested in powerful objects and the tadpole because he knows only something powerful can truly free him from Cazador.
I mean, he is quite low in Maslov's hierarchy of needs right now.

EDIT:
I can't find the dialogue right now, but I think I remember that he says he could become a full vampire, but it's enough for him to just kill Cazador. That's why I think he just wants to be free at any cost and becoming a full vampire is simply one of ways to achieve this goal.

I think neutral evil characters believe in a hierarchy but they are (supposed to be) on top. After all they put themselves first. If you put something first that's already a hierarchy.
I firmly believe Astarion to be Neutral Evil, the reason why I mention lawful a lot because he has some lawful and some chaotic tendencies, but he is not really on either extreme.

Its an interesting point, but I would draw on the notion of a neutral evil deity and their relation to their clerics as opposed to their worshipers. i think it is perfectly possible for neutral deities to have hierarchies, but anyone in their hierarchy is always going to be towards the lawful end of the spectrum regardless of the alignment of the god because they are subsumed/submitted to said hierarchy which they in some way have to believe in: they believe the gods clerical hierarchy is as things should be, which is lawful. Chaotic gods are a whole other thing, but I guess an actual chaotic evil cleric, when encountering another cleric of the same god would be just as likely to kill them to prove their superiority in the eyes of their deity with the hope of further blessings than work together.

Edit; I think I would draw on the example of lolth who is a chaotic evil deity but the drow in general are neutral evil, and the church of lolth structure leans towards lawful evil

I'm not sure what you mean by not officially available, it's in one of his dialogues?

Very interesting. We'll see how this turns out -- I think you are on to something in him wanting to be free but I also think there is another part of Astarian that doesn't really know what to do with the freedom he already has. So he's caught between wanting even more freedom and trying to get rid of the freedom. Under Cazador's yoke his life had a purpose and the desire to control the tadpole is filling that void but what after that? Killing Cazador but then? What to do with the next 200 years? He's a like a sulky version of Dr Who after a regeneration. Who am I now? What do I like? Clearly not saving tieflings . . . perhaps I'll find the answer in sex?

Pretty close to my guesses but I have Lae-zel pegged at Lawful Evil and Shadowheart at Neutral Evil (good leaning)

Long ago there a dragon magazine that had recommendations for how to role play alignment taking into account the character's wisdom and intelligence. Some evil characters would just be selfish and not be interested in philosophical discussions of the nature of good and evil. Someone like Korgan for example "I hate to be bastard here . . . " (no you don't Korgan, no you don't) Others would have a highly developed philosophy to justify their actions -- some realms equivalent of social darwinism. "Of course I dominate others, domination is part of the fabric of this world. The strong will always prey on the weak. Judge me if you like but I see the world for what it is and act accordingly. I watch you stumbling around blinded by pretty illusions like justice and the sight fills me with contempt"

I always saw neutral evil as "evil, by any means that are effective" Shar is like the others in game of thrones, Shar wants to bring about the long night. If propping up a tyranny gets the clergy closer to that goal, great. If persuading the peasants to overthrow King McGoody that's what they will do. For the Sharran it doesn't matter if the means involve propping up evil institutions or tearing down good ones what matters is that darkness prevails.

In the code, daisy dress is the name of the clothing of the "Who do you dream of" character wears.