Originally Posted by spectralhunter
Originally Posted by Aishaddai
Hmmm ok. So basically literal self insert. So what bothers people is that the self insert character does not lose? I mean you can't create something without putting a piece of yourself in it, but a Mary sue is an extreme case? Has Elminister ever lost? Just curious. Technically all upper ranked gods past shar and Overgods like Ao are Mary sue's. Lmao. Crazy.

I don't know. Seems like a very dark outlook. If someone does not lose something they are hated. Very philosophical actually. Interesting.

I've never payed attention to the term so it was nice learning the clarification. Thanks.

Well the hero of the story should win. It’s more nuisanced than that. The hero has to earn the victory. If all his powers and gifts are inherent and free, the victory is shallow. But if they were earned through hard work, struggle or dedication then the audience can appreciate the win.

It’s the same reason people like to cheer the underdog. We want to see hard work pay off even if the odds are against you.

Training is good and all but I don't have a bias toward weakness. It sounds like the argument is essentially prodigy bad, masochism good. Thats a popular pit fall that i'm not a fan of. I greatly prefer a middle ground that focuses more on giving the target audience a good time. A flexible approach. Mary sue's, stuggles, losing cause weakness's, etc seem to be deviations and digressions that might get a little too much focus and get people lost on the point. Lol

I understand what you are saying though. I'm just not that rigid when it comes to stories personally. I think differently and focus on different things.