Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Getting with the times.

People are getting really insane. Cooldowns are the complete opposite of D&D.

They need to develop a proper resting strategy, especially in dungeons.

And a CRPG like this NEEDS d/n cycle. It is the standard of the genre.

It'd be nice to have, but I disagree that it's vital.

The little "II" icon next to my name is there because I backed the Kickstarter for DOS2, when Larian promised a day/night cycle for DOS2. They later broke this promise because they hadn't realised how difficult it is to implement a day/night cycle that isn't merely cosmetic.

A day/night cycle, to Larian, would mean having to give characters routines where they'd move around throughout the day, and you need to be able to find important characters at different times of the day. And then you need to account for this in the story. For example, if the story includes meeting a character while he's in the middle of a bar fight, then you need to meet him while he's at the bar, not while he's asleep after you break into his home.

There are sacrifices/complications you need to make to have a day/night cycle, and it's debatable whether it's worth the cost.

....and yet D&D started as a crappy miniatures game, like a really bad Warhammer, so technically D&D isnt D&D....

It gets more fun when you consider that Staff of the Magus has a cooldown of 1 turn in Divinity 2. So that you have to spend time to use it again. Anything that requires a time cost is cooldown-gated.
Compared to attacks in Divinity 2 that only cost 2 AP. If you have 6 AP you can attack with a bow 3x, as there's no time cost.

For ATB the cooldown is visual and gates your turn, which gates your skills. ATB you're always spending time, so it can be hard to notice. But when compared to true turn-based games it is a noticeable difference.

Asking for cooldowns to be added to a game? You're asking for a time cost.

I don't mind rest systems in general. It's just that in this instance, Larian chose the worst possible way to implement it.
If you're going to force people to full-stop and break the flow of the game just to be able to function, at least give people an incentive to do so outside of "I'm just here to restore my power so that I can get on with it."
As if the fact that even the most minor conversation in this mess of a game cuts away to an unnecessary cinematic wasn't enough to kill the general pacing, they opted to add even more of a punch to the forced pauses.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker handles the rest system in an extraordinary way, actually assigning non-combat roles to people in order to turn resting into a light mini-game at the camp.
Solasta: Crown of the Magister doesn't go quite as in-depth, but at least there's still somewhat of a summary screen with some simple decisions to be made and the potential for ambushes.

This whole "we're waist-deep in a dangerous cave, let's hit a magical button that somehow sees the entire party walking all the way back to a designated area where the only thing to do is to arbitrarily click on companions to see if we're far enough along yet to progress one leg of their story, only to be disappointed in the same canned responses and eventually end up walking back to the exact same point where we left off" thing is catastrophically disappointing. Doubling down on the disappointment is the fact that there's really no penalty or limitation on long rests, so there's not even a strategic element to employ where we can pat ourselves on the back for being clever by either managing our resources properly or by finding a way to game the system.

Larian's poor implementation of this system is going to find me playing classes and teams with companions without any magical capabilities so that I can just short rest and be on my way.
And don't even get me started on the whole "perpetual day UNLESS you're long-resting" bullshit.

In the end this is all really just semantics, but again ATB (as implemented in most FF games) is best described as a turn cooldown, not a skill cooldown. In many of the games it is just a flexible, visual way to manage turn orders without relying on rounds -- where you simply rotate through each character. Some FF games freeze time once the ATB is full; others provide time freezing as an option (similar idea to previous Baldur's Gate games having real time + pause layered over a traditional round-based system).

Because ATB doesn't have rounds, it's possible for one character to have 2 turns (or any other arbirtrary number of turns) in the same amount of time another character has 1 turn. It's more realistic and provides a clearer advantage for fast characters, but it's more chaotic and can be harder to plan around. Either way, these are still "turns" in the tradional sense, and it's the turns that are experiencing a cooldown.

Anyway, not a system meant for BG3.

Oi! The cinematic camera during dialogue scenes is awesome. If you disagree with that then you're wrong. :P

Check out the example I provided earlier of Expeditions: Viking. Best camping minigame I've seen thus far.

Based on Early Access, I expect that Larian decided to ditch the "world map" of the original Baldur's Gate games. I don't believe that decision is really for the better. Regardless, if that's the way it's going to be, I think they should use rest points in a way a similar to Final Fantasy or Dark Souls. In this case, you would find a location that would be both camp site and fast travel point where you can long rest. You would put these in friendly villages, or before heading into a "dungeon", or at other points where it would make sense to take a break.

And then I would like it to have a camping minigame similar to Expeditions: Viking, with pretty cinematics like FFXV and conversations with your colleagues like in Dragon Age.

I agree that the rest mechanic is bad in BG3. It's boring and it add 0 value to the game.

But as I said earlier, according to me it has nothing to do with D&D... It's a matter of choices Larian made.

Resting and spell slots are supposed to be a part of the action economy of the game.
In video games the player have to choose the right moment and has to deal with a benefits/risks/consequences ratio.
That's something I love while traveling in the dangerous FR.
On the other hand, 5e include things to do while resting. Hit dice, level up, spell preparation, features, rituals,...

None of this exists in BG3. Short rest is a "give me a few HP button" and long rest is a "full heal" button.
And yes, we have to rest often to enjoy our spells.

On the other hand in BG3 :
- there are no random encounter while resting, no risks.
- You can rest everywhere and TP = no risks while looking for a spot.
- Resting is linked with the story = we have to rest for story purpose.
- There are many OP monsters, challenging combats, many ennemies = we have to burn our spellslot/features...
- ... But we have a party of 4 = we don't have many things to do between our rests.
- There are no D/N cycle, no time management, no strategies arround fighting at day or at night = resting isn't integrated to the world and is not a part of such gameplay choices.
- There are no ritual and things (D&D or not) to do during resting = resting isn't interresting at all you except a few times for story reasons.

All this are a few exemples of things that could, if improved or implemented, really increase the strategy and the action economy arround resting.
On the other hand, resting would be something during which you have specific things to do...

Cooldown/spell slot is probably a matter of taste... But whatever our taste the system in BG3 is bad and doesn't work... resting leads to nothing interresting in the game and it's not "the system's" fault.

Yeah, I referenced the games to have a reference where cooldowns are more frequently used. The intention behind it was to be more like real-time with pause. Here's how ATB was described back in the day. (Page 16)
SNES Manual - FFIV (Start of ATB)
The idea was that the battles would have a higher sense of urgency. I totally agree that it gives an edge to faster characters and could make planning ahead more difficult.

Also to add to that and getting on-topic. BG3 has a really complex system adopted from DnD 5e. DnD expects the players to plan ahead and is very much balanced around that. Changing spells to be gated by cooldowns instead of long rests would disrupt this. (Just as short rests recharging spells like long rests currently does).

TBH long and short rests will probably need to be changed again, I think by and large we can agree something is off about it. Too often we're not planning ahead and repeating the same mechanics like a chore.
Whether the game should be changed to be truer to DnD or changed for the modern video game experience, I don't know yet. The changes that would benefit the game are those that will help the player plan ahead and those that would inspire the player to repeat tasks again.

For example,
Change short rests to only restore health. (Keep at 2)
Change food to never restore health.
Change food to at first have no effect, but when made into a dish can restore 1 spell slots.
(different dishes will replenish different levels)
Add in: Characters will not want to eat again until after a short or long rest. (after eating, character gains a "full" status, after resting loses full status)
Change food to only be consumed outside of combat.
Change long rest to only occur in safe zones/rest points.
Significantly drop the number of spell scrolls that appear in the game.

These changes would improve the game, but I'm not sure if they would fix the issue. (I think they would help the player plan ahead, but the mechanics could still feel like a chore). I'm sure there are other aspects of the game that will need to be changed as well, and restoring 1 spell slot might be too few for the modern gaming experience. The example is mostly food-for-thought.

I’m personally of the opinion bgIII should stay true to 5e since that’s supposed to be a major selling point.

However I’d just like to note for the Cyberpunk comparison that most of the anger had nothing to do with gameplay (does anyone even play cdpr games for their mechanics?) and everything to do with 1. The game being stuck in developmental hell for years 2. Crunch to finish the game 3. A buggy unplayable mess on consoles that could even brick said consoles and 4. The cherry on top, a scene with a specific sequence of flashing lights that triggered seizures.

Again, I’d like to see the mechanics improved, but I highly doubt subpar mechanics would generate the sort of negative reaction that cdpr has faced.

The cinematics are for the most part terrible; a mute expressionless doll for the main protagonist who perpetually has his/her hands on their hips and sometimes raise their eyebrows? Please, the game is littered with badly directed and totally unnecessary cutscenes. It's a budget sinkhole.



I don't really get this logic since pretty much every other decent CRPG I have played has been able to implement a day/night cycle and NPCs had routines? Even BG1 had it and you could simply rest until it was daytime again if you needed to enter a certain shop or speak to a certain NPC. Some may find that a pain in the arse but I would rather that than walking around BG3 in permanent sunshine. I simply cannot imagine walking around the city of Baldurs Gate but only during the daytime. What is the point of a rogue if they can't sneak around at night?

I swear, this game feels like DnD: Warriors of the Eternal Sun (for those that played it on Sega Megadrive/Genesis)...the story took place in a world where the sun never set.

A day/night cycle does not neccesarily need to have Skyrim-like routines for NPCs. Many games had a very simplistic one yet it added so much. NPCs were at a set spot, and when time has passed you get a cutscene of the sun rising/setting or whatever and it was day/night with all adjustements made. Even DA2 without a real-time day/night cycle managed to implement something with day and night situations in the city. I think Larian is making it harder on themselves than it needs to be and and seems it was just marked impossible without looking for alternatives/options. (I would assume they did look for options but considering how many other games did these cycles and had their own version or variation of it one way or another.. -something- should have been possible I would think)

It is 1000% better than DOS2. Words can't express how happy I am with having actual visual storytelling in BG3.

There's really no comparison. BG3 isn't perfect, but it does a decent job. Check out the DOS2 scene on the beach starting at 1:30. Compare that with the Astarion scene.

I wonder what makes people actually believe this stuff. Both are games driven by rules where the player has a certain freedom to interact with what is presented to him or her.
The biggest difference are simply the presentation and the more linear nature of a video game. That's it. When you have a DM who is not very creative or a quick thinker and not able to spontaneously depart from a prepared part of the campaign, then you get even closer to the more limited nature of a video game when it comes to possibilities of interaction.
The other difference between PnP and games is just the audio-visual presentation: having nice graphics and sounds on a flat screen vs. a dude simply telling you what is happening in front of your eyes.

Just because a video game is by its nature less flexible in its narrative design and freedom of possible player interactions doesn't mean that the whole ruleset behind it suddenly falls apart and can't be applied to this form of media. Again, as mentioned time and time again in this forum by other people, it looks like it has to be said again: Solasta has already proven that the claim "PnP rules can't work in a video game" is bogus. The difference between both forms of games is much smaller than you believe it to be.

Well that is only to be expected given the advances in graphics technology since DOS was in development and I'm happy for you that it brings you pleasure. I'm probably in a minority here but I would rather the several glaring issues with the game were remedied over having glossy and at times unnecessary cinematics.

In some respects I don't think it's valid to make comparisons to DOS because this is a BG game and should ideally have no reference to DOS whatsoever, other than the obvious ones in being a fantasy RPG. They are different settings with different rulesets, art, etc. and that should be apparent in BG3.

There are definitely some 5E features that will be a plus when and if implemented (expertise, FI). There's also some stuff (book Ranger) that's best avoided. I dunno, I'm never gonna be interested in a game that sacrifices DnD rules to cooldowns, but let's not pretend that the 5E ruleset is some holy grail. It has its pluses and it has its flaws, and some of those flaws are best avoided. I think Larian should focus on point improvements and rebalances, though, rather than trying to reinvent the ruleset.

I like the cinematics, but tbf they are heavily reliant on shot-reverse shot technique for most of the dialogue. The only scene I can think of off the top of my head with interesting blocking is Shadowheart’s party romance segment (that I had to look up because it’s still broken... I really hope this gets fixed soon lol.) The Astarion one is way too close to their faces imo, they should really pull the camera back more.

Not everything needs to be a cutscene. A few sprinkled in for effect as a treat in order to flesh out salient story points would have been great, but I don't need a dramatic cutaway every time I'm curious what a throwaway NPC with one line has to say, where a simple text box would have surely sufficed. It's seeing me completely avoid people who are unnecessary to furthering the plot, and it's an absolute waste of resources and time to try to turn this into a JRPG/handholdy passenger's seat cinematic experience that kills the pacing of the game and makes it feel like a chore.

I get the feeling that at least 50% of the overall playtime in this game is going to be spent watching cutscenes that could have been text boxes. I signed up for Baldur's Gate 3, not Persona 6.

Yeah, I agree with this too. Cutscenes can help in some cases but right now (which might be due to it being EA) most cutscenes feel wooden or janky. The one posted somewhere above here with Astarion's meeting kind of falls in that category imo. No matter what you do or what actions you take, it feels forced with not -really- showing what is done. And it ending up with just rolling away from each other and standing up, it does not really feel dynamic. It could be a "yet", because as said it is EA but... Ultimately I would rather have dialogue be dialogue, no need for everything to be a cutscene moment. Save those for situations that matter and make them work in a dynamic way and look good/believable opposed to everything being a cutscene that looks basic or wooden/janky.

I suppose it is a case of waiting to see what will change after EA with this and if this is a thing improved on.

Agree. I love the visual storytelling in BG3. I am a very visual person, and even simple close-up shots in conversation add a lot for me.

And this is the great asset of BG3 : visual.
It is absolutely beautiful and wonderful.
With d&d5 rules on top (actions, jump limitations, scrolls not for everybody, no eating during fight...), better movements management and less abundant stuff, it will be perfect.