Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Getting with the times.

Ok let me put it this way: As of right now Larian publicly want bg3 to be a mix of divinty and 5e. The translation from pnp to video game format is never 1 to 1. Realism systems also don't translate well to video games. Some are asking for bg3 to be the following: 5e pnp, realistic resting, day and night cycle, etc. Increase system complexity essentially.

Stay with me. Larian added 1 short rest and it destroyed the flow of cutscenes quite substantially. The contradiction is what you are asking for vs what is already in the game as a system. My point was becareful what you ask for. Systems are more complex than they seem.

Almost nothing is impossible, but I have my doubts about the flexibility of the systems reconfiguration.

Hope that was more clear.

It seems I didn't read enough interviews before EA release, because all I ever read was that Sven talked about how much they want to make a DnD game, and that the whole company loves and plays DnD 5e.
I didn't catch the gist that they want to develop a game that is a chimera between DOS and BG.

It sounds like it would be a bad thing, if we get complex systems or if the game has very complex systems running in the background. Mind you, you can get very complex patterns and connections even between fairly simple core systems. But that being a problem? Sorry, I don't know what you mean here.

And I am not asking for a realistic rest mechanic. I don't want to watch the game characters brushing their teeth or how they doff armor for 36 minutes.

I want the sun to rise and set, and the light change accordingly. Graphically demanding? Yes. Expensive to code the graphics engine? Yes. A lot of work to make NPC go to a different place at evening and return to e.g. their shop in the morning? Yes. But realistic? No, just something to make the world feel more alive and not so static.



That additional short rest was only able to destroy the flow of cutscenes because they were managed very badly to begin with.
Just go from the beach, after picking up shadowheart, Astarion and Gale, to the grove without a short or long rest.
After being there the next couple long rests will play out differently than if you had three long rests before you go to the grove.
It is extremely easy to mess with the dialogues in a way that they don't make sense anymore, e.g. Astarion talking about Cazador and how he hates him, before you even know that he is a vampire. Simply by not examining the dead boar.
And if you never do a short rest or if I always take two short rests before long resting does not make a difference.

The flow of cutscenes is bad because they tied it to an arbitrary resting system that doesn't make much sense.

A real time system would possibly make such things even easier to handle from a programming standpoint, as in after 24 in-game hours the dialogues you would usually have on first rest ( before going to the grove) then take place.

And yes, you are also right, the system bg3 is built upon is not very flexible.

I am aware that we will not get a day/night cycle, it was stated in at least 2 interviews before EA release.
I am not asking for it, but I would like to have it, yes.

And I am also not asking for a RAW translation of 5e, but please don't overthrow mechanics that can work perfectly well in a video game.

Cooldown are awfull, but so are the action economy in BG3.

That's fun to read players saying "don't stay true to TT". They even don't understand that many things suck in BG3 because... They didn't stay true to D&D.

Or their opinion differs from yours.

Not only that, but the further BG3 strays from 5e, the more fallout there may be. We have seen this not too long ago with Cyberpunk and the hate-train, where people turned on CDPR because they "lied" and made "false promises". Regardless of it being true or not, it was blown out of proportions and people just jumped on the hate train because they could.

BG3 already has a hard road ahead of it, with how there are already plenty of people hating on the game for not being a true BG and not a worthy successor etc. With how Larian promised a game "As faithful to 5e as possible" with options of being able to make your 5e character in BG3 it makes the situation even more tricky with deviating from it. Regardless of what you think of Solasta: Crown of the Magister or BG3, Solasta did prove that you can be really faithful and making a game with solid mechanics, adding to it being a tricky situation with claims of being as faithful to 5e as possible.

It is a hate-train bound to happen, much like it happened with Cyberpunk2077 and CDPR, and that is something that should not really have a repeat (It was kind of ridicilous how such a thing happened in the first place as well but that is a different subject).

"We have to rest every 30 minutes or after each battle" sounds more like a fact than a matter of opinion.

Larian's design choices leads to this situation, not the rules of D&D.

Yeah, I agree with you.

It's hard, on the one hand you want to give feedback because you want BG3 to be a game you can enjoy and play a long time, on the other hand you can get frustrated when you feel it's not the way it could be.

And certainly nobody wants that something similar as with Cyberpunk happens again, be it how the game reacted or how the developers got treated by their management.

If Larian wants to make a game that is more Divinity than Baldur's Gate, by all means, they should do it.
No doubt it will be a game many people will enjoy.

@damichi

So you admit you understand my point but then say I "overthrow mechanics" and list thing that prove you don't understand? The topic is about bg3. My response are about bg3. You need to get a grip. Not sure if are assuming something or are arguing with someone else. Reread my post if necessary.

Sorry, I can see that my last sentence can be misinterpreted. It was not directed at you, Aishaddai, it was directed at Larian Studios.

Oh ok. No worries. I was not sure what was happening is all. Hope the game turns out well. I'm eager to see this next patch because, like you, I want to see what is possible in the context of change.

ATB gauge is a turn cooldown, not a skill cooldown. In most FF games they do NOT use the ATB to limit your ability to use skills. They use mana/MP, which can only be recharged using items, or via resting at a save point.



FFVIII was an oddball one which used a "draw" system instead of mana. I love FFVIII, but its magic system was broken.

True. Source could be decribed as a form of mana mechanic. This was pretty limited though.

Yeah, i think that just limitation of the engine? Probably... But yeah the scale is abit weird but it's better then it was in DoS 2.

The world building is amazing just the scale could be tiny bit bigger maybe a farm with npcs that give lore on the area, between the goblin camp and the druids with surroundings forest and wild animals to talk to or hunt whatever...

When we get the full world with multiple maps the theme park feeling will subside at least somewhat i reckon. Hopefully, as maps are amazing by themselves.

On a side note camping should be done on world map and shouldn't possible everywhere. i guess you need to have fast travel in 2021 or people would go berserk.

So maybe the camps should be at fast travel points. The camping spot right now is immersion braking. It was fine in 2009 in DA:O but today it's abit on a weak side!! Hopefully if nothing else they at least change the background environment in camps when we move to other world maps.

Cooldowns without mana are a NO-GO especially in DNd...

adsadaThis is why they should just scrap the camp story gating and just stick to normal world camps. Gate story at specific world locations an d yes those can be camps. i mean if people don't rest in EA they can miss on shit loads of stuff... It's just weird how they picked this system...

It's not often I get to talk with another FF fan, so I'm glad you wanted to discuss. If you still want to discuss this after my post, you can DM me so the thread can stay on-topic.

you can't use skills without a full ATB bar (For the entries listed IV-IX).
*Player uses a skill and the ATB bar empties. After the ATB bar fills up, the player can use another skill. (Skills such as cover, draw, change row, blue magic, item, attack, steal etc.)
In the video specifically ATB is used so Zidane can steal.

All combat abilities use ATB as a resource. ATB limits the players ability to do everything in combat. Compare this to Final Fantasy 1 or Dragon Quest XI, which don't use ATB.
For example, stop prevents the ATB gauge from filling up and as an effect, the player cannot use the affected character's abilities. Hasted characters get to take more actions/minute because they get more ATB. More ATB = more skills used, less ATB = less skills used.

+1 for long rests being fast travel points. Feels like Dark souls. Though I would like the background to reflect current location too but that's big boy budget. I think programming wise that could be a nightmare since you have to make sure each scene can be played at each location for out of order exploring. Who knows.

By that logic, we already have cooldowns in the game. Every action, spell or thing you do goes on cooldown for 1 turn, then you can do it again. When you are hasted, the cooldown shortens and is skipped every other turn.

The ATB bar is basically your "turn" meter, for when your turn comes up next. Not a cooldown for your skills (the skills that can be compared to attacking, sneak attack, or spells which would require to be restored by resting/mana restoration)

I find myself wanting to quote this and highlight it again, because this is a legitimate, real-world consideration that goes well outside the game itself, and it's a real and genuine danger that Larian should be actively aware of and considering. These are important factors that will come into play the closer the game gets to release.

This is a much beloved franchise, and Larian have made certain promises and certain claims about it; the situation is decidedly volatile. The studio making claims about making a game as true to 5e as they can, but then diverging so much, while a parallel game makes a very faithful rendition that works well, is going to risk major backlash; upselling with claims about how you'll be able to make your favourite D&D characters in their game, when the ruleset is so divergent that you realistically will not be able to is only going to make it worse.

They really need to be more careful about what they promise their audiences, or they need to deliver on those promises... otherwise it won't matter how fun or enjoyable the game itself, independent of any other consideration, might be - it will get torn apart and flop miserably. The have to be aware of that danger and consider it seriously.

Having to "end the day" every 30mins-1hr is immersion ripping, and annoying. I like to RP the game as well. I'm not looking for action around every corner. I like to explore, do companion quests. inventory maintenance, etc.

The spell slot, rest to reset mechanic is archaic. It makes perfect sense for PnP. Matter of fact it is also a balancing mechanic. It also makes you be more strategic when battles arise. It makes battles more enjoyable, in PnP. However in PnP, you might have 1-2 battles per session, and sometimes none at all. In, cRPGs, you are alone, and or can run side by side, you dont need a GM to RP your NPCs, mobs, merchants, and tell you your surroundings. You also dont need to share the lime light with another player. Even if you play multiplayer, you can both do the same or different things simultaneously, because its not at a bottlenecked pace of 1 person controlling the setting. in cRPGs you have battles way more often, and its rather annoying not being able to use different abilities in those battles, and just AAing everything in a slog, or making sure I rest after every battle, which immediately pulls me out of the game, when I just did 2 battles in the last hr, and im ending the day for the 3rd time in that hour so I'm not stuck in a slog or a reload to get spells back.

I love the old D&D cRPGs, but better game mechanics, that let you stay immersed have come along. Im all for nostalgia, but not for nostalgias sake. Honestly, it feels like you want to be stuck on dial-up internet speeds, just so you can tap into that old feeling.

I am for a day-night cycle and having to camp, fatigue setting in after not resting for 2 in game days, is awesome. Me having to rest, just to reset my ability to fight in a battle, is just making it into a chore, and makes battles a chore as well. I want to have to keep using my abilities that I level up to learn, and use tactics in battle, so battle is something to be enjoyed. With this out of date system its a duck and cover, AA slogfest, and my opponents can spam their abilities all day and never run out, but I have 1-2 chances to land a shot that will make or break the battle for me, or be the thing that turns it into an hour long timesink.

Cooldowns serve the same purpose as spellslots, with the caveat that I don't have to end the day right after every battle, and some of those abilities and spells might be available again, if I survive long enough without them.

Sorry but I cant agree its based on taste. Cooldowns are just the superior mechanic to use. The only argument for spellslot mechanics is nostalgia and feel. Cooldowns, alow a much more fluid experience, still require strategic choices, by not letting you spam them every turn, and don't ruin what can be an enjoyable aspect of the game, and just make it into a chore. When I played DragonAge I'm pretty sure I camped everytime I was about to eat a meal, or ending the day in real life, or leaving the game for some other RL thing. That was enjoyable, I'd catch up with companions, shop, work on my character, etc. It just felt like an overall enjoyable experience. This rest mechanic....is a laborious chore.

This is objectively not true. You are making a subjective statement.

Cooldowns would completely destroy D&D. You would literally need to completely overhaul every single class in the game. The reason why you don't start every battle by spamming your most powerful spells is because you have to decide whether it's worth it or not. A cooldown would completely change the strategy because there woud be no downside to using your most powerful spell any time it's ready. You can't just change spell slots to cooldowns and leave the rest of the design as-is.

I don't have a problem with cooldowns when designed properly, but Baldur's Gate is explicitly branded as a 5E D&D game and cooldowns are not compatible with that brand.

If you like cooldowns, then I have some good news. Larian already made the game you want. It's called Divinity: Original Sin.

"Stay true to the brand" Lol. Staying true to the brand would be AD&D not 5E. Things evolve, just as D&D has evolved in PnP, it can and should evolve for a different format. PnP and cRPGs are entirely different formats. Just like Books and Movies are entirely different formats.

Just because you change to cooldowns doesn't mean you then start every battle with your most powerful skill/spell. I never did that in any other game that did that. However, my cleric uses spells in almost every battle, my concentration spells gets knocked off constantly with a bad saving throw, then my AC becomes crap. Short rests don't seem to replenish any spell slots for clerics.

A rest reset mechanic again I will say, makes sense when you are playing PnP, or even for very powerful spells, like Source points in DOS2, but it does not for cRPGs except make it a chore. In PnP you have 1 or 2 fights and have to rest, JUST LIKE YOU DO IN THIS GAME, the difference being that PnP is a much slower pace than cRPGs. That's what ya'll are forgetting. However, the pace of cRPGs are much faster, and so the mechanics have to adapt to that pace.

If cooldowns weren't a superior mechanic for cRPGs then the rest of the industry wouldn't use them.....but wait they do....

Literally translating 5e, without taking into the consideration of the change in format, is just a backwards way of thinking.

Just because games have been done that way, also doesn't mean you should keep doing it. I mean I can go hunt a lion with a spear, but I'd rather do it with a gun if I was gonna do it, cuz its 2021....