Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Suggestions: Class Balance Changes

Greetings fellow Baldurians!


Bellow is a list of changes I think the game should obtain to improve classes.


Wizard
- Firebolt: Now deals 1d12 + 1d10 burn effect on target for the next two turns
(this spell is seriously horrible feels awful and makes me never want to cast it. it does less then half the damage of magic missile (which feels great) and can still miss three times as much. functionally its a serious issue for the ability and so buffing the initial damage and adding a dot should make it more interesting. Alternatively, giving it an aoe fire application could work).


Ranger
- Summon Familiar and Summon Companion can be casted in combat.
- Significantly grant the animal companions the ability to jump further (because running around to get to a target so much causes them the class to lose large amounts of enjoyment and viability)
- Increase the area of effect range of hail of thorns by 2m (this spell could make the ranger class in general, especially for hunter feel and perform much better)

Warrior
- Remove or reduce the chance of hitting with might blow (ranged). This is to strong for a seemingly melee oriented class. perhaps the best option here is to just make the warrior miss more, if not removing the ability outright.
- increase the healing of second wind to 1d10+5
- reduce the chance mighty blow (ranged) will land on a warrior class (this ability it to overpowering and makes you want to play the class like a ranger. This invalidates the entire reason a plate melee exists out side of tanking as a dps, and should should be taken as a serious recommendation). Personally, I'd remove it from the class ).

Rogue
- Give the class the ability to use the cloud of smoke to hide. This is a massive game changer to the class. If they can use the ability at base line they could smoke being a thieving target and not need invisibility to be casted on them. this has huge game changing potential to help the class feel amazing).


Cleric
- make cure wounds a ranged ability identical to healing word.


This is it for now.

I don't have enough experience to say anything else, besides that Firebolt is a cantrip with no resource limit, comparing it to Magic Missiles which is a level 1 spell at minimum isn't really a good idea, and suggesting to buff firebolt by that much is crazy. Also, it's going to get upgraded to 2d10 at level 5 anyway, as all offensive cantrips gain a bonus damage die at that level (and most martial classes get double attack then too). Unless Larian decides to make changes in regards to how level 5/6 progression works.

Also Cure Wounds being stronger but restricted to touch range is the tradeoff for Healing Word being a bonus action and a ranged spell. One is meant to heal a party member that isn't down yet, the other is primarily meant to quickly pick up a party member that's downed before they die.

This almost reads like a parody.
I'm not under the delusion that D&D is a perfect entity where nothing should ever be tweaked but every single one of these suggestion either ignores/misunderstands why a certain spell/skill exists or why it is how it is.

Like... the very reason both Healing Word and Cure Wounds exist as separate entities is BECAUSE they work differently.

Sometimes, its better to just nod and navigate away.

The issue is most battles do not last long enough to validate it being used over a resource costing spell (level 1+). So the validity of "it has no costs" is not accurate. Additionally, you still have the option to scroll on top of this, which means by default you will never cast the spell, because you can simply stack higher damaging scrolls.

it definitely needs a buff in the early game, at least to 1d12, but a damage over time effect will make it "competitive" option to the alternatives. The only other real reason you'd have to cast it is some sort of resistance based advantage, which would potentially require a lot of development resources (time/effort) to make what you can make with a simple damage buff more viable, and that is not practical on a business level unless there is other larger things at play.


No, I just have a "throw some of the rules out of the rule-book" approach to this, because some of the dnd rules are not "mandatory" and should be renamed from "rules" to "suggestions". The moment he design team realizes this and commit to it, the moment the classes in this game become far more enjoyable, and the game far more popular.

This ultimately is a design choice for the game and we are not in general removing dnd rules, just altering some small things about it, and largely enhancing the classes "fun factor" for what? a "rule" that says you cant cast summon companion in combat? lets be serious about this.

With respect, I completely disagree with this approach, its game development not life and we don't have to use rules we don't want to. When its your game, you make the rules.

Well, sure? I just hope they won't use yours.

So you're just going to ignore the part where I said Firebolt is going to receive a buff at level 5 anyway?

Quite frankly, what you're suggesting means Larian shouldn't have made BG3 at all, and just went on with developing D:OS3 or finishing Divinity: Fallen Heroes instead. A lot of your suggestions read like a lack of understanding of the source material rather than improvements to the system (especially in regards to what I said about your Cure Wounds suggestion, which you also conveniently ignored). What's the point of BG3 if you're not even going to put in the effort to understand some of its systems, and preach about how 'the source material is holding back this game's popularity' as if fans of the source material don't know what's good for the system they are most familiar with?

I feel some people in the BG3 community are so used to the free-form system that D:OS2 had to the point where some are just completely unable to adapt to actual limitations, and even then BG3 doesn't even have that many limitations compared to the source material outside of certain features like player choice reactions and ready actions being missing to begin with. There are balancing problems in BG3, but they are more with how Larian implemented things rather than problems with the source material itself. For example, Firebolt being weaker than Magic Missiles would be a lot more justified if you weren't allowed to spam rest everywhere, and I'm pretty sure those summoning abilities ARE supposed to be able to be used in combat.

Okay so you are serious. I’m not sure if you are familiar with tabletop rules or not.

Firebolt is 1D10 to align with the damage output of all the other classes. It’s an unlimited resource like say a sword or arrow (in this game). If you buff it and add DoT with surface effects, you are reducing the value of all the other classes. Firebolt also scales well as you level.

You should be able to have a familiar and animal companion. That’s a known issue that’s been stated. Animal abilities are fine as is. If they can’t keep up with your character, a change in tactics is in order.

Fighter is not a melee oriented class. They are actually the best archers. They are the best with weapons. Second Wind scales with levels albeit slower than what you suggest.

Rogues can hide again if they move away from line of sight.

Cure Wounds require touch because it heals more than Healing Word. That’s the whole point. There has to be some disadvantage otherwise why even have Healing Word?

Speaking of classes being unfun to play:
Why Wizard is Unfun

There are a lot of reasons wizard feels unfun at the moment. If Firebolt gets buffed that much, no one would use Scorching Ray. There are non-cantrip spells that need love from the developer at the moment.

Yes, Because it is still broken and bad before that. More importantly, at those lower levels the alternatives like missiles and scrolls for missiles do two to three times the damage (if not more) and also at those levels the lower hp has an effect that forces more validity on casting missiles and not firebolt.

If firebolt is underperforming all of it needs to be looked at, now just later. I suspect that after level 5 its also under tuned, which makes me think that in general the mechanical operation of the spell itself is not good and is in need of some change (like not applying a damage over time effect for a few rounds).


This is where things get a little more complicated. Ray has good operation, and good damage. Its potential for 3 target burst is higher then 4 target burst from missiles. Meaning it can hit fewer people for more damage, which gives validity to missiles operation on being more of a targeted-aoe spell. This means that both are competitive and useful in different situations. think of it as a tool, like a hammer vs a knife, they are used for different things. In this case, both spells are fine.

Firebolts no resource cost is a good benefit to this toolkit, but as long as there is no reason to cast it because it has no real competitive seat, it will never really be used exact as a last ditch no other option sort of situation. Improving its damage, or causing to apply a damage over time effect (for example 1d10 (or 1d12) + 1d10 for two turns) will provide that needed mechanic option. Now you have mechanic option to spread damage over time effects, or more incentive to cast it pushing its current benefit (no resource cost) into a more competitive spot.

Lets face it, dealing 3-7dmg to a target that has 40-50hp when you can cast 13-20dmg spells is just never going to happen. It needs a buff, especially at lower levels.

One should note that firebolt used to generate a burning field by itself in the earliest phases of EA. That got removed because most of the community thought it did too much damage and did not incentivize the use of anything else, not to mention the burning effect AND the burning field basically meant that casters hit by it had to make *3* concentration checks for what was normally a single hit attack. Technically 5 because they'd take damage again at the start of their turn.

One should really be aware that whatever changes you make can potentially be used against you by enemies in this game too.


Yeah, one also needs to note that if Firebolt gets buffed, that automatically means a lot of other wizard spells need to get buffed too to justify their use to begin with. And then Larian would look at their encounter metrics and find that wizards are killing things too quickly, causing them to buff enemy HP slightly higher, and then we're right back at square one.

Like I've repeatedly said throughout these forums, balancing requires a multi-faceted approach, and it isn't nearly as simple as some people believe it is. The best way of suggesting what needs to be changed is to look at how they interact with the rest of the system first, and then make a judgement based on that.

Okay, what if the developer put a premium on resting? So that the player has choices to make between Firebolt and Scorching Ray.

Scorching Ray would need to be conserved for important fights and Firebolt would be used freely in-between difficult engagements.

I am not suggesting there is a ground effect for firebolt. I am suggesting that its initial impact damage is slightly increased (10-20%) and Potentially looking at causing it to apply a damage over time effect (if testing shows the initial damage buff is insufficient)

Not being able to change from bear to wolf in combat is a serious design flaw for ranger, and significantly diminishes the potential of the class, and its fun factor. I cannot express how much more better the class would be if these abilities could be used in battle.

A common tactic in rogues is to get invisibility, hex a target, and then guidance buff the rogue/thief and pickpocket for optimal chances. Having invisibility, or a cloud to shroud them protects from the sight of others walking around which can potentially cause the class to get cough while stealing. Giving the rogue the fog so they can avoid line of sight of others is a way to enhance the class to not depend on another to provide a functional benefit to its party. this is especially true in multiplayer (where a wizard might not be in party), but can apply to a single player mode where a player simply does not want to run a wizard.

As for cure wounds I could meet you half way in the middle and say buff its range 6m?

Is... is this a joke post? It has to be a joke, right? o_o

It (game balance) happens to be my career.


an aoe field for fireball is to much, it has uses but its uses are just not really advantageous in battle, especially at lower levels. It just needs a bit more. Just because before it over performed does not mean now its not underperforming.

Okay, so your suggestions suddenly make a lot more sense within this context.

A lot of what you say seems to indicate that you think things in this game aren't dying quickly enough, but maybe the developers don't want things to die that quickly. And that gets into the topic of how the issues are more with Larian's current implementation of things rather than the source material itself, because it's widely known that Larian actually lowered enemy AC because they thought people missing was unfun. However, they increased enemy HP to compensate, which ALSO lead to a new balancing problem with how cantrip damage is less impactful than they normally are, and that spells with saving throws are suddenly worse than spells that make attack rolls in the vast majority of situations. Not to mention that party HP growth is largely still the same, so that enemy mage throwing a fireball spell at you would probably completely wreck you, while it'd barely result in a dent if you were to do the same to them.

If game balancing really is your career, you should really look into why the current system is the way it is before passing judgement on what needs to be changed, rather than blindly suggesting numerical changes with seeming little regard to how it'd interact with the rest of the game. BG3 is more complicated than most because it's half Larian homebrew and half source material, and there is a reason most believe that the larger issues lie within the homebrew system and lack of certain source material options instead of an issue with the source material itself.

(Not going to lie, I really wish I could get a career in game balance, ha. Or at least some kind of consultant. Also, as a nice thought exercise to help you, you should look into analyzing balance in MMOs, as that's how I started out. I say this because they are usually historically bad, usually by design per the nature of being live service games, so analyzing and understanding what happens there makes it a lot easier to come up with more effective and focused suggestions in literally every other type of game. :P)

This is not really about damage being done as much as it is about making the class enjoyable. Firebolt as a spell is not enjoyable, it is something that will maybe needed way later down the road when a battle lasts so long that you exhaust all your base spell casts. in the current iteration of the game it simply does not happen to work out way. Scrolls could be changed to consume a resource as an way to functionally have access to spells you have not learned, but i think this is to much of a change for something that can be met with a slight adjustment to the damage or mechanics of firebolt.

This is more about making firebolt a more useful/competitive spell then buffing its damage, i just happen to think it could fulfill that role if it had more damage (or even more range) or a dot on it.




It is. I have been a senior game designer for a while (about two decades) now and I specialize in systems design (creating talent tree's, class balance, things like that).

Hm. Well, nice to meet an actual designer on these forums, but I still respectfully disagree with your approach. Sorry if I sounded hostile earlier, most suggestions in these parts are usually made in some kind of bad faith, and at least you're consistent in your reasoning.

Maybe instead of looking at Firebolt in a vacuum, we should consider all of the other cantrips too? I think one of the other formerly unvoiced issues I had with the firebolt suggestion in particular was how it'd basically invalidate the use of most other cantrips, and the differing amount of value we place in the source material.

For one, I would prefer to be closer to the source material by simply reverting enemy AC and HP back to something closer to tabletop, and knowing that DnD largely runs on a cost/benefit analysis system more than anything else. But if the developers continue insisting on the lower AC/higher HP design, player damage probably does need some kind of buff somewhere, because the action economy is currently heavily stacked against the player as it is with the amount of fights where you're grossly outnumbered on top of that (and putting far too much emphasis on controlling the high ground and turn 1-2 ambush tactics, which heavily limits your options - which is bad for a supposedly tactical game such as this).

1D10 is perfectly balanced with firebolt. I don’t understand why it needs more. Most weapons do 1D6 or 1D8 damage. You could also opt to pick a different damage cantrip like Chill Touch that does 1D8 damage and prevents healing. The reduction in damage is due to the added effect.

Rangers are not supposed to be able to summon their pets like BG3. It’s just how Larian implemented it. It’s supposed to be a static animal companion, not something that is conjured. In that context, it’s appropriate you can’t change them while in combat.

Arcane trickster has access to Fog Cloud.

There has to be some risk involved with healing. It’s too easy to heal as it is.

Great, can you list what games you have worked on so I can avoid them? Your idea of game balance does not match mine.