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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Not quite accurate. The problem is that barrelmancy is not a cheat or an exploit. It is a mechanic that is intended by Larian, I agree with you on priciple, that said in my playthrough of BG3 I didn't find barrels to be that prominent. I think one needs to go out of their way to abuse the system. Advantage with backstab or hight advantage is a plague, which overrides all other tactical considerations in combat. Fair enough, though there's been a lot written in this forum about barrelmancy in certain specific encounters with a large number of enemies. In any case, I was responding to the other poster because they were specifically talking about the barrels issue as something that was akin to cheating which one could choose to avoid doing. I did mention a few other similar problems with Larian's combat in my last sentence, which when taken altogether make BG3 combat all about gimmicks, which is precisely what I hated so much about D:OS combat.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jan 2021
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The 'use' of shocking grasp at the moment is that, after you fill the room with water, such as from your free casts of it from Rain-dancer, you can shocking grasp the puddle and stun-without-save an entire room of enemies. Soon you'll be able to do this with witch-bolt too. I had forgotten that was a thing. I abused the hell out of that specific tactic (along with freezes too) in D:OS2 Tactician, and even then it was way harder to do it there on account of the armor system (though that game ran on cooldowns rather than spell slots too). I am not sure how I feel about wanting to do the same for BG3. On a fundamental level, it should bother me quite a bit, because we really shouldn't be bringing mechanics from one game series directly into another older established series in an almost 1:1 copy. If it did extra damage only? Fine. But stun is a bit much. I feel Larian is definitely taking it a step too far with this. Applying stun would be ok if it were tied to Wild Magic sorcerers as a random chance to leave ground effects/cause ground effect related status effects, or a special item with some downside, but baseline AoE stun w/o save cantrip that is enabled by a cantrip, or alternately a very easily acquired staff is ridiculous. Even in singleplayer games there can be things so overpowered that they overshadow other classes entirely, and it does not create a good experience. The backstab/height advantage is a double edged sword, without it being implemented in some way, the game would become even easier in those encounters where it is a crutch for the AI. For some players it makes the game too hard because of this AI crutch in certain encounters, or it is annoying to want to have the 'best' outcome and feel obligated to optimally use the advantage system every encounter.
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I agree that that sort of effect definitely has a place in D&D, the problem becomes when that kind of trick becomes what the game is balanced around. When it becomes punishing to not be observant and pull off those tricks, then it stops being a case of telling others to just not do it, because not doing it means not engaging in the game the way it's designed to be played, which if you have to suggest that, is indicative of a potential problem with the game. Balance issues aside, the very existence of the Larian cheese is a negative if you prefer a more serious playstyle. You know you kind of engage in a self-nerf/fight with a handicap if you're not willing to indulge. Shove is a fun "I-win-button" in many cases, but also so gimmicky it cheapens the game for those preferring a more serious playstyle. Pushing a creature that weighs near a ton (ie. the spider matriarch) like it was a feather is fun...and immersion breaking. And the fact only the player can bully the AI, feels artificial and more immersion breaking. Shove is brokenly overpowered as a bonus action and should at the very minimum become a standard action. Personally, I would like to see the option removed as is and remain as a magical effect through Mage Hand and Thunderwave (wands also). Balance and internal logic/realism would be restored. Don't even get me started on throwing enemies at other enemies like they were stones flying across the screen. Again silly fun, but so silly it's immersion breaking besides unbalancing. Throwing boots is good for a laugh - once. All these "fun" small immersion negatives add up over time. Pickpocketing in Larian games is likewise EXTREMELY gimmicky and overpowered. It entails no risk at all when you know what you do/can savescum, and is the best and easiest way to get loot and gold. And it has a similar negative effect even if you ignore the feature. A total screw you to any kind of risk vs. reward balancing mechanism. Because "fun". Additional ways to remedy these issues can be to making the cheese come with a cost. More magical items/loot on bosses that are lost/broken when pushed down "bottomless" pits for instance. Items, particularly potions/scrolls, that can be destroyed by explosions/"barrelmancy". Pickpocketing is a harder cheese to balance, but Larian could stop making pickpocketing some super powerful magic and impose some level of realistic limitation (ie. size/weight and number). Or if they want to actually live up to the BG legacy, consider implementing a law/reputation system (where checks can be done even AFTER theft so the player won't be able to game/savescum the system as easily). Buuut, when you find giant bulls climbing ladders "fun", I totally see there never will be resources for unfun realism. Agreed. Some occasional things could be considered creative but using it all the time is ridiculous. Some of it is just dumb and I am not a fan of this at all. I don't care if it is in there for other people to use but making it the expected playstyle is awful. The game needs to be balanced around less gimmicks. I also don't even care if there are settings to toggle this stuff, but right now it is ruining balance and immersion for a lot of us. Just because the mechanic is in there, does not "force" you to use it. I have never bothered with "barrelmancy" because I think it is just stupid. So I don't use it. I think that high ground should basically just help ranged (ie: arrows, spells) and not any close combat like backstab though. Same with the push mechanic, I can count on 1 hand how often I have used that. It does not negatively effect my ability to fight groups at all. Having that stuff included affects my immersion and play 0%. As far as "savescumming" again, you as the player can chose not to do it. If someone wants to play that way (not my cup of tea but whatever) I do not think they should be penalized for it. It is THEIR game. I have to say, I do agree that having an ox, or bear use a ladder is stupid. I think if a druid transforms as a bear, than they should be a tank/dps machine, but have its limitations. Basically forcing the player to use range tactics or the pull mechanic to bring the NPC in range.
Last edited by Pandemonica; 20/02/21 05:29 PM.
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enthusiast
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Just because I don't use barrels, grenades, shove & jump it doesn't change neither what the AI is doing nor how the encounters have been balanced. Just watch Swen play during the panel and you see that they designed the encounters with these options to be used in mind. The encounters are especially balanced and designed to be using the stealth + enemies stuck in turn-based-combo.
Animals climbing ladders... I don't mind bears, but cows probably shouldn't even if its mainly just to keep the party movement less annoying (as Larian dropped the ball on controls to beginn with). For me the other changes to the Druid class are far worse and not to mention that publicity stunt to do the animals' animation for the show before fixing the animations of creatures using the small humanoid rig - as Niara mentioned.
...but its all about Swen's perception of fun, so seeing how closely BG3 encounter-design resembles DOS2, I don't exect anything to change.
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Just because I don't use barrels, grenades, shove & jump it doesn't change neither what the AI is doing nor how the encounters have been balanced. Just watch Swen play during the panel and you see that they designed the encounters with these options to be used in mind. The encounters are especially balanced and designed to be using the stealth + enemies stuck in turn-based-combo.
Animals climbing ladders... I don't mind bears, but cows probably shouldn't even if its mainly just to keep the party movement less annoying (as Larian dropped the ball on controls to beginn with). For me the other changes to the Druid class are far worse and not to mention that publicity stunt to do the animals' animation for the show before fixing the animations of creatures using the small humanoid rig - as Niara mentioned.
...but its all about Swen's perception of fun, so seeing how closely BG3 encounter-design resembles DOS2, I don't exect anything to change. From what I saw of the broadcast, Swen's "playstyle" if you can call it that, is the last place you should go to take tips from 8P. I prefer just to play the way that is entertaining to me, and I tend to not worry about if Goblins use barrels or whatever. I just know I choose not to, and it doesn't effect my ability in fights. I mean Swen is a founder of the company, I don't expect him to actually know what he is doing playing. That is what he hires others to do. This whole Panel from Hell is just some publicity stunt, that is why I don't even bother with them. I am more concerned about how OP the druid seems, when they can just fly to a location, then turn into a bear on the same turn and attack. That is just going to be abused like crazy, and I am willing to bet there will be changes before the game goes live.
Last edited by Pandemonica; 20/02/21 07:29 PM.
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[quote=biomag]
I am more concerned about how OP the druid seems, when they can just fly to a location, then turn into a bear on the same turn and attack. That is just going to be abused like crazy, and I am willing to bet there will be changes before the game goes live. Based on your own arguments - simply don't use it  At least the AI won't be doing the same against your party (I don't assume they will have many druids in the game), so that shouldn't happen anyway. Though like Niara said you can actually do the same thing in the tabletop by switching wildshapes while in wildshape (except flying creatures require level 8), but you couldn't go out of bearshape and back to it to get a fully healed bear. Nor could you turn into a bird fly on top of the tower switch back to druid and shoot with advantage/cast in the same round like BG3 makes possible. But at the end of the day the reason for the druid being overpowered is the same as with all the other issues - changes to action economy and overall balance without proper due dilligence. They've ripped apart the balancing system that the rulebook has in place and replaced it with something that isn't thought through and keeps piling on issues.
Last edited by biomag; 20/02/21 08:03 PM.
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[quote=biomag]
I am more concerned about how OP the druid seems, when they can just fly to a location, then turn into a bear on the same turn and attack. That is just going to be abused like crazy, and I am willing to bet there will be changes before the game goes live. Based on your own arguments - simply don't use it Trying to compare a player class to using a barrel is really about as apples and oranges as you can get. Even if a druid can do that in tabletop, it will end up being one of those things that causes issues in a actual game. Tabletop rules do not always translate well to another medium.
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As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun. Agreed on warlock being very fun overall, though I feel like they're a bit lacking as a blaster class when everyone can nova so hard every single fight? That will probably just get worse too, but even now, there's not much point to eldritch blast when you have that magic missile necklace and a full set of spell slots every single fight. This is true for most spells though to be fair, I saw someone a while back showing that gear ends up making magic missile your best single target damage until disintegrate, and even then it's close. Not sure what the answer is to that, though I guess it's at least one solution for coffeelock being so out of line with other casters lol I'm very hopeful changes will implemented down the line to do something about the magic missile meta. xD
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As for Warlock, levels 1-4 in Baldur's Gate 3 feels pretty good and If Hex is streamlined it'll be even better. The sound and animation for Eldritch Blast doesn't get annoying, which is critical to keeping Eldritch Blast fun. Agreed on warlock being very fun overall, though I feel like they're a bit lacking as a blaster class when everyone can nova so hard every single fight? That will probably just get worse too, but even now, there's not much point to eldritch blast when you have that magic missile necklace and a full set of spell slots every single fight. This is true for most spells though to be fair, I saw someone a while back showing that gear ends up making magic missile your best single target damage until disintegrate, and even then it's close. Not sure what the answer is to that, though I guess it's at least one solution for coffeelock being so out of line with other casters lol I'm very hopeful changes will implemented down the line to do something about the magic missile meta. xD Limit Resting. They need to find a way to punish resting or something.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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Just because the mechanic is in there, does not "force" you to use it. I have never bothered with "barrelmancy" because I think it is just stupid. So I don't use it. I think that high ground should basically just help ranged (ie: arrows, spells) and not any close combat like backstab though. Same with the push mechanic, I can count on 1 hand how often I have used that. It does not negatively effect my ability to fight groups at all. Having that stuff included affects my immersion and play 0%. As far as "savescumming" again, you as the player can chose not to do it. If someone wants to play that way (not my cup of tea but whatever) I do not think they should be penalized for it. It is THEIR game.
I have to say, I do agree that having an ox, or bear use a ladder is stupid. I think if a druid transforms as a bear, than they should be a tank/dps machine, but have its limitations. Basically forcing the player to use range tactics or the pull mechanic to bring the NPC in range. We are in agreement, not sure why you implied I was trying to take away the ability for others to play with the stupid stuff if they want to. I don't like this kind of stuff so I don't do it. Wouldn't even have known a lot of it was possible if I didn't read about it here because it is just that ridiculous. I do not have issues fighting stuff without it but some people might. I do not care if others do these stupid things in their games as I have said many times before. I just don't like that it seems that the stupid stuff is what Larian is expecting us to do all the time and they appear to be balancing the game around it. By balancing the game around a more immersive playstyle but also keeping the stupid stuff in for people who like it is in no way penalizing the people who like it. There are plenty of people who like immersive gameplay who also have difficulty with some things and they shouldn't be penalized for not using the things they don't want to use, or not realizing they can do certain things because those things are so stupid and unimmersive that the thought never crossed their minds.
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Just because the mechanic is in there, does not "force" you to use it. I have never bothered with "barrelmancy" because I think it is just stupid. So I don't use it. I think that high ground should basically just help ranged (ie: arrows, spells) and not any close combat like backstab though. Same with the push mechanic, I can count on 1 hand how often I have used that. It does not negatively effect my ability to fight groups at all. Having that stuff included affects my immersion and play 0%. As far as "savescumming" again, you as the player can chose not to do it. If someone wants to play that way (not my cup of tea but whatever) I do not think they should be penalized for it. It is THEIR game.
I have to say, I do agree that having an ox, or bear use a ladder is stupid. I think if a druid transforms as a bear, than they should be a tank/dps machine, but have its limitations. Basically forcing the player to use range tactics or the pull mechanic to bring the NPC in range. We are in agreement, not sure why you implied I was trying to take away the ability for others to play with the stupid stuff if they want to. I don't like this kind of stuff so I don't do it. Wouldn't even have known a lot of it was possible if I didn't read about it here because it is just that ridiculous. I do not have issues fighting stuff without it but some people might. I do not care if others do these stupid things in their games as I have said many times before. I just don't like that it seems that the stupid stuff is what Larian is expecting us to do all the time and they appear to be balancing the game around it. By balancing the game around a more immersive playstyle but also keeping the stupid stuff in for people who like it is in no way penalizing the people who like it. There are plenty of people who like immersive gameplay who also have difficulty with some things and they shouldn't be penalized for not using the things they don't want to use, or not realizing they can do certain things because those things are so stupid and unimmersive that the thought never crossed their minds. That would be a delicate wire to walk on I think when trying to compensate and balance for both. Honestly, I think in the end, if you choose not to use the cheese, you are accepting a slightly greater difficulty to win a hard encounter. Which is fine with me, but I totally get what your saying about penalizing one group for the other. It would be really cool if they could achieve that perfect balance, but I think it might be more complicated to do so than we think it would be to make the fights totally even difficulty whether you want to use barrelmancy or not.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2021
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... I do not want to repeat false assumptions ... The argument isn't that Larian should be "100% RAW no exceptions" the argument is that particular rule changes are not making the game better, and it would better and more fun if they just had implemented the RAW instead. "Players use home rules" is a strange argument when the complaints are that the home rules in question are detrimental to the game. They're not arguing that home rules shouldn't be allowed, they're arguing against these specific changes. +1
Last edited by McDoney; 21/02/21 07:26 AM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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That would be a delicate wire to walk on I think when trying to compensate and balance for both. Honestly, I think in the end, if you choose not to use the cheese, you are accepting a slightly greater difficulty to win a hard encounter. Which is fine with me, but I totally get what your saying about penalizing one group for the other. It would be really cool if they could achieve that perfect balance, but I think it might be more complicated to do so than we think it would be to make the fights totally even difficulty whether you want to use barrelmancy or not. I think they could add menu options for "realism" (not exactly the word I am looking for) settings. For example, barrel cheese can still be done but you have to carry them with hands and hide from npcs that you are moving around their furniture, or smarter ones may attack. Food should have an option to heal or not. Animals climbing, well I can't think of anything to make that less stupid, but perhaps this one does not affect combat balance so much if you shift to humanoid form to climb a ladder then back to animal? I doubt they will get perfect balance like you said, but if they do it around the more immersive playstyle then I would think more people would be happy because the stupid stuff would be there for everyone to use, and people who wouldn't think of ever using it would not be stuck with things being too difficult. I don't mind it being harder without the cheese, I like challenges, but perhaps there are a lot of others who do not like this and they should not have to do the things that make no sense just to progress.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Just because the mechanic is in there, does not "force" you to use it. I have never bothered with "barrelmancy" because I think it is just stupid. So I don't use it. I think that high ground should basically just help ranged (ie: arrows, spells) and not any close combat like backstab though. Same with the push mechanic, I can count on 1 hand how often I have used that. It does not negatively effect my ability to fight groups at all. Having that stuff included affects my immersion and play 0%. As far as "savescumming" again, you as the player can chose not to do it. If someone wants to play that way (not my cup of tea but whatever) I do not think they should be penalized for it. It is THEIR game.
I have to say, I do agree that having an ox, or bear use a ladder is stupid. I think if a druid transforms as a bear, than they should be a tank/dps machine, but have its limitations. Basically forcing the player to use range tactics or the pull mechanic to bring the NPC in range. We are in agreement, not sure why you implied I was trying to take away the ability for others to play with the stupid stuff if they want to. I don't like this kind of stuff so I don't do it. Wouldn't even have known a lot of it was possible if I didn't read about it here because it is just that ridiculous. I do not have issues fighting stuff without it but some people might. I do not care if others do these stupid things in their games as I have said many times before. I just don't like that it seems that the stupid stuff is what Larian is expecting us to do all the time and they appear to be balancing the game around it. By balancing the game around a more immersive playstyle but also keeping the stupid stuff in for people who like it is in no way penalizing the people who like it. There are plenty of people who like immersive gameplay who also have difficulty with some things and they shouldn't be penalized for not using the things they don't want to use, or not realizing they can do certain things because those things are so stupid and unimmersive that the thought never crossed their minds. Well put, @Zarna. This is exactly my problem, especially as someone who doesn't like combat in RPGs generally to begin with. Not everyone who plays RPGs is a hardcore gamer, and I'd wager hardcore gamers are actually a very small minority of players. I myself am decidedly NOT a hardcore gamer, but I love playing RPGs precisely for all the outside-of-combat goodness and fun and joy I get from an RPG. So when an RPG's combat options are (a) use gimmicks and cheesy exploits to win, or (b) get party-wiped again and again because I am not so hardcore a player who sets up my combat tactics perfectly, then that is just pure frustration and aggravation.
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While I can understand anyone wanting to have their personal idea of perfection in the game, I think it is much better to just say so clearly, rather than try to elevate that notion above what others prefer.
Larian's idea of mechanics are unrealistic and silly, without a doubt. But the D&D rules, whichever version you prefer, have also always been unrealistic and silly.
The very idea that you can "balance" a game that is largely determined by the luck of the dice, or that adding more play options makes much difference just bemuses me.
I have played most of the BG3 encounters several times, rarely used or cared about the more unusual elements Larian have added, and have had the same encounter range from trivial to impossible entirely based on the luck of the dice. That's what D&D is about.
By far the largest influence on the difficulty of an encounter is whether you have already played it, and know what will happen. This far outweighs your skill with the rules, and whether or not you choose to use Larian's questionable mechanics.
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Honest to god, the BEST answer, is that Larian makes absolutely sure that all of this is able to be adjusted via mods. I have absolutely no reason to believe that 'balance' is a concern here.
Simply allow us to fully mod the game (and Explosive Arrows, Spells, Ground Effects, Hight Advantage, and Barrels are ALL able to be modded out) in every capacity, and no problem.
I would MUCH rather that be the primary focus from Larian. Every could be happy then.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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This is exactly my problem, especially as someone who doesn't like combat in RPGs generally to begin with. Not everyone who plays RPGs is a hardcore gamer, and I'd wager hardcore gamers are actually a very small minority of players. I myself am decidedly NOT a hardcore gamer, but I love playing RPGs precisely for all the outside-of-combat goodness and fun and joy I get from an RPG. So when an RPG's combat options are (a) use gimmicks and cheesy exploits to win, or (b) get party-wiped again and again because I am not so hardcore a player who sets up my combat tactics perfectly, then that is just pure frustration and aggravation. I am probably the total opposite of you being that I enjoy harder combats and tactical gameplay but I consider myself more of a masochistic gamer rather than a hardcore gamer.  It can be hard for them to keep all the different types of players happy for sure, so there definitely need to be difficulty settings for everyone. As it is now, I don't even think a lot of people would even think the ridiculous stuff existed unless they looked up gameplay and guides before playing it. Not everyone does or wants to do this. Driving away people who do not know about this stuff or even those who do but don't want to be forced into using it to make combat less complicated is not a good idea. By far the largest influence on the difficulty of an encounter is whether you have already played it, and know what will happen. This far outweighs your skill with the rules, and whether or not you choose to use Larian's questionable mechanics. It shouldn't be balanced with the assumption that everyone knows what will happen. I agree the dice definitely make a difference in the difficulty, but if the encounter can be salvaged by using the stupid stuff and the player doesn't realize this because they play with a more logical mind rather than thinking of stupid gimmicks to cheese an encounter, then they may fail. Too much of this failing makes many people unhappy, balancing encounters without expecting the use of gimmicks might keep them playing. Honest to god, the BEST answer, is that Larian makes absolutely sure that all of this is able to be adjusted via mods. I have absolutely no reason to believe that 'balance' is a concern here.
Simply allow us to fully mod the game (and Explosive Arrows, Spells, Ground Effects, Hight Advantage, and Barrels are ALL able to be modded out) in every capacity, and no problem.
I would MUCH rather that be the primary focus from Larian. Every could be happy then. This would be great but I still hold some hope that they will change things without us having to resort to mods. Would love to see menu options to get rid of all that, if not then I guess I have to stop being lazy and learn how to mod stuff myself.
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Simply allow us to fully mod the game (and Explosive Arrows, Spells, Ground Effects, Hight Advantage, and Barrels are ALL able to be modded out) in every capacity, and no problem. That could bypass some problems (though there are issues that modding might not be able to solve like reactions, as modding the original system in would require new systems and UI), though I never see modding as an answer to poor design or balance. Generally, I am unlikely to be willing to spend time designing and balancing my game after paying for it full price. If some kind souls will do that work for me, that's always nice, but it's a crutch not a solution. And there is only that much modding can solve - for example in Divinity it didn't manage to fix the absolutely awful UI. Sure, "Improved Organization" is an alright concept, but it is fundemantally flawed, as it is in conflict if "wares" system. Generally, mods are small additions, not fundamental overhauls. Not many modders will have resources, time, commitment and skills necessary to redesign entire game. Especially, if the game isn't very entertaining in the first place. Modding is great, and can occasionaly evelate games but it is not an answer to design problems. But erasing problematic mechanics, while the game was designed around them, will create a host of new problems players will need to solve. It's the same argument as "if you don't like it - don't use it!". That just not how games work.
Last edited by Wormerine; 22/02/21 07:00 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
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Honest to god, the BEST answer, is that Larian makes absolutely sure that all of this is able to be adjusted via mods. I have absolutely no reason to believe that 'balance' is a concern here.
Simply allow us to fully mod the game (and Explosive Arrows, Spells, Ground Effects, Hight Advantage, and Barrels are ALL able to be modded out) in every capacity, and no problem.
I would MUCH rather that be the primary focus from Larian. Every could be happy then. Truthfully this is what I think is happening. They are relying heavily on mods to feed the community what they want. If they go this route it could wind up being like Bethesda mods in future games.
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I realize it's just offloading flaws onto the players, but at this point I'll take it. I would rather a system that I PERSONALLY can fix, compared to hoping Larian comes to their senses.
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