Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I agree that that sort of effect definitely has a place in D&D, the problem becomes when that kind of trick becomes what the game is balanced around. When it becomes punishing to not be observant and pull off those tricks, then it stops being a case of telling others to just not do it, because not doing it means not engaging in the game the way it's designed to be played, which if you have to suggest that, is indicative of a potential problem with the game.

Balance issues aside, the very existence of the Larian cheese is a negative if you prefer a more serious playstyle. You know you kind of engage in a self-nerf/fight with a handicap if you're not willing to indulge.

Shove is a fun "I-win-button" in many cases, but also so gimmicky it cheapens the game for those preferring a more serious playstyle. Pushing a creature that weighs near a ton (ie. the spider matriarch) like it was a feather is fun...and immersion breaking. And the fact only the player can bully the AI, feels artificial and more immersion breaking. Shove is brokenly overpowered as a bonus action and should at the very minimum become a standard action. Personally, I would like to see the option removed as is and remain as a magical effect through Mage Hand and Thunderwave (wands also). Balance and internal logic/realism would be restored.

Don't even get me started on throwing enemies at other enemies like they were stones flying across the screen. Again silly fun, but so silly it's immersion breaking besides unbalancing. Throwing boots is good for a laugh - once. All these "fun" small immersion negatives add up over time.

Pickpocketing in Larian games is likewise EXTREMELY gimmicky and overpowered. It entails no risk at all when you know what you do/can savescum, and is the best and easiest way to get loot and gold. And it has a similar negative effect even if you ignore the feature. A total screw you to any kind of risk vs. reward balancing mechanism. Because "fun".

Additional ways to remedy these issues can be to making the cheese come with a cost. More magical items/loot on bosses that are lost/broken when pushed down "bottomless" pits for instance. Items, particularly potions/scrolls, that can be destroyed by explosions/"barrelmancy". Pickpocketing is a harder cheese to balance, but Larian could stop making pickpocketing some super powerful magic and impose some level of realistic limitation (ie. size/weight and number). Or if they want to actually live up to the BG legacy, consider implementing a law/reputation system (where checks can be done even AFTER theft so the player won't be able to game/savescum the system as easily).

Buuut, when you find giant bulls climbing ladders "fun", I totally see there never will be resources for unfun realism.

Last edited by Seraphael; 20/02/21 12:28 PM.