Yes, yes and triple yes ! I mean that not about the proposed solution in the OP, but about the problem. With some exaggeration, I'm nearly not interested in what the final rule should be, but
this is a problem, and it should be fixed.
To be honest I nearly felt personally addressed, cause I didn't see anyone else criticizing the scheme (ofc, maybe I just missed those posts).
I have done so
here, but now that you mention it, I don't think I saw it being raised that often. I seem to recall someone mentioning it right after the Panel From Hell 2 (ah!, found it,
here, in the OP), but it's hard to search for this particular issue, as there are no strongly associated keyword. I'm more than happy to increase the visibility of this, because I find this super important. Just one thing though, I'm wondering if the current thread title is the best way to describe the issue. Perhaps it would be better phrase as something like "party members not drawn-in when a fight starts", or something (perhaps not). Niara described it as "the locked-in-initiative vs. not-in-initiate abuse". Not sure it's the best name for this issue. Anyone with ideas, please chip in.
Anyway, I'd be quite happy for this thread/issue to get noticed ... although :
On PH2 Swen drew some attention how he splitted the party, entered the fight only with one character far-far away from others and then could run to help that character with another without "losing" turns. And that was his example on how the current scheme of work is helpful.
Youtube stream recording with Swen's explanation at 1:58:47.
This exploit/mechanism does allow players who are in trouble to bring in reinforcements, even though this situation is probably not going to happen that often for a normal player. It also does prevent players from performing ambushes. Larian seems to think that this is cool or useful. What can I say ? I couldn't disagree more. I think what is lost is far greater than what is gained.
So ... is there any use explaining why this mechanism is wrong ? Is there any use still requesting for any kind of change ? I don't know. But here's what I once said to explain why this is wrong. (At least, I'll spare my energy ...)
Currently, I have the greatest difficulties in doing a very simple thing : ambushes. That is to say, I want all of my team to have a turn before any single enemy can take a turn. It might be that the current mechanisms are sorely lacking, that some bugs are to blame, or that I'm stupid and didn't figure out how to do it (these alternatives are not mutually exclusive).
A character on their own can easily-enough take up to 3 actions before enemies can do anything (a shot before combat is official, an action during the first round with surprised enemies, and a third action if they got first place in the initiative track). But as soon as I have more than one character, some enemies will sometimes play before some of my ambushing characters ! In what is possibly my worst example, I wanted to ambush Gimblebock's group. Lae'zel fired an arrow. Thanks to the use of Sleep, the 4 enemies proceeded to play 2 fulls turns before the game would give me a chance to do anything.
This is an extremely frustrating experience. When achieving such a simple thing is so hard and my attempts sometimes result in diametrically opposite effects, I feel something is very wrong.
Surprise.
What are the rules for creating surprise ?
Sometimes I manage to surprise enemies, sometimes not. And I can't really tell why.
I would tend to say that a neutral creature who can perfectly see me walking around, but has no reason to suspect that I will attack, should not be on their guards and thus should probably be surprised.
I would tend to say that a creature who cannot see me and receives an arrow should certainly be surprised. (Whether that creature was neutral or hostile, it does not matter.)
Yet, that doesn't seem to happen systematically.
Who gets surprised ? Why is it not everyone or no one ?
Sometimes, not all enemies are surprised.
Example : I ambushed a large group of hostile creatures who couldn't see me (in the hall of Priestess Gut, with the goblins having turned hostile). When the fight started, some got surprised (those close to the target of my first arrow), but some didn't.
Suggestion : if one enemy is surprised, they should all be surprised.
How come a party member can be surprised when I am the one triggering the fight ?!
This has happened to me a couple of times. Needless to say, it makes my palm fly to my face. In fact, it might be at the top of my Epic Facepalming Scoreboard. This make zero sense. As in, absolute-zero sense.
I wrote earlier that I'd like my party members not to behave like free-riders when somebody is talking. I would also like them not to be completely utterly incompetent. If we discussed a plan to ambush the enemies, and they don't have 3 in Intelligence, they should remember our plan by the time the first person to act triggers combat, as per the plan.
Out-of-combat party members, joining the fight.
When a fight starts, all party members should be in the fight immediately.
At the beginning of a fight, some of my ambushing companions are included in the fight, some are not. Some enemies then get to play before the party members that were included in the fight. I have wait until the turn of one of those, then select an out-of-fight character, and only then can they finally throw their ambushing arrow.
This is part of a family of situations (a family which is way toe large) where the way things turn out in the game can be miles away from what I meant to do, not because of ball rolls or any other sort of randomness, but because of the UI or mechanisms. This case might not be the most blatant one, but it's pretty close to the top. And it's never a good thing.
I cannot tell the criteria for who is included in the fight or not. I hope that this does not have anything to do with the chaining : unchaining is the only way to dispatch the group in some specific locations, and the current combat inclusion mechanism should not penalise us for doing something that we are forced to do given the (poor) controls you gave us.
Below are other remarks, but they all become mostly irrelevant if it is simply made impossible to have out-of-fight party members, which I very much hope will happen.
When there is a party-member in a fight, the rest of the world should be turn-based.
Examples of ridiculous situations that otherwise arise :
- My squishy warlock comes across a bugbear assassin, while the rest of the party is still near a tiefling smith. Combat starts. Oh no, poor warlock ! Wait. My mistake. Not a problem at all. The rest of the team can finish their shopping, pick up a free meal and come to reinforce my warlock at a leisurely pace, since the rest of the world is not turn-based and the combat is on hold so long as my warlock doesn't play.
- A rogue who didn't get noticed at combat start can circle the whole battlefield and come in from behind an enemy for the sneaky backstab, in what would have taken 5 rounds.
Transition from turn-based mode to fight mode.
If I have activated turn-based mode before a fight, I would very much like all my team to have their turn before the fight starts. All of them. My party's turn should not be interrupted by the world or combat.
Companions walking into a fight and missing a turn.
When an out-of-combat companion enters the fight, they lose their first turn.
If have selected an action before the fight (typically a ranged attack), they lose the rest of their turn (bonus action and movement). Even if they end up being ranked after my "currently playing" character in the initiative track, they don't have a turn when it should be their turn (i.e. when the active creature progresses to where their portrait is in the initiative track).
Everything would be way simpler if everyone was drawn in the fight at the same time.
Some summarising suggestions.
- If a fight starts and at least one enemy is surprised, then all enemies are all surprised.
- If a party member is included in a fight, then they are all in the fight.
- If I trigger a fight by an attack-like action, the character who triggered the fight is automatically first in initiative among the members of my team.
-- If the enemies don't have the Surprised status, then all my team is grouped in the initiative track and will thus play before any of them.
-- The action or bonus action that I used to trigger the fight is counted as consumed. Otherwise said : my first action was part of the fight and the fight continues from that point, with the guarantee that all my teams plays first.
I'm not guaranteeing I still agree with the suggestion I once made. But the point remain : it should be possible to plan an ambush.
The "out-of-combat = real time" rule and "not all party member are drawn-in when a fight starts" issue interact in really terrible ways.
