Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Let's predict how certain class features are going to be altered for BG3

First of all: Leave your snark at the door. I'd rather not have the mods barge in out of nowhere and turn this thread into a graveyard.

That said, it's unlikely proper reactions are going to be implemented at all, so I thought it'd be a fun exercise to predict how certain abilities are going to be altered to fit into BG3. Moreover, the purpose of this is to see how everyone thinks this would alter the balance of those abilities between tabletop and BG3. And maybe in a few months from now, we'll see how far or close to the mark we ended up being.

It's no secret that I favor Bards above all others, but I simply do not see BG3 being able to implement Bardic Inspiration exactly like it is in tabletop since it is reaction-based AND choice-based all in one. For the uninitiated, this is what Bardic Inspiration does.


The different Bard colleges change how you can use the Bardic Inspiration die. Right now, most people think that at the very least, College of Lore and College of Valor would be implemented into BG3.


Right now, the existing Bard mod for BG3 seems to be taking the interpretation that it will most likely be changed to a round-based effect that will apply all possible bonuses (or penalties in the case of Cutting Words) at once. That's probably the simplest way to implement it, and the most likely route for Larian to take too. However, this would make Bards hilariously busted, with Bardic Inspiration acting as a super version of Guidance with huge combat bonuses as well, especially in regards to College of Valor's upgraded version of it.

In the tabletop 'meta', assuming people actually take it any seriously (you really shouldn't), College of Valor is generally seen as an inferior archetype option. BG3 possibly changing Bardic Inspiration to a round-based effect with all bonuses at once would basically transform it into the single best class ability in the entire game. Potentially giving a party member anywhere from +1-8 to AC for a whole round or longer by mid-game is massive. Getting +1-8 to attack AND damage rolls on top of that is way over the top, and that's not even including the saving throws and skill checks (although the AC/Damage part may be altered, see below). The only downside would be that the Bard can't use it on themselves, unless BG3 decides to change that too. Though Lore's Cutting Words would also be potent in the idea that enemies would not be able to avoid its penalties at all, as nothing blocks it other than having charm immunity or being deafened.

I am morbidly interested in seeing how it'd work out in regards to the game's balance in the long term for myself.

To any dataminers on this forum: Assuming Bardic Inspiration already exists somewhere in the game's files, care to shed any light on how close this would be? I am unsure if the version of Bardic Inspiration that exists in the Bard mod is something that the modder added in, or it's something that is actually already in the files and the modder just switched it on to be available, like virtually everything else in the mod.

This is the version of Bardic Inspiration and Combat Inspiration seen in the mod by the way. Both are treated as separate buffs but are applied by the same time by a Valor Bard.


Also, for the curious, here's the rest of the differences between College of Lore and College of Valor.

Lore:

Valor:

(Note: All Bards get Magical Secrets at level 10, Lore Bards get 2 bonus spells way earlier than all the others. So the primary difference between Lore and Valor is that Lore Bards are more focused towards a mage-like playing style, while Valor Bards generally prefer using weapons and are capable of acting as support tanks if needed.)

I expect to see a mostly combat-centric Wild Magic pool for Sorcerers, and maybe some extra metamagics, or 'special' ones.

Wild sorc plays to Larian's strength, which is wacky hijinks. I'm reasonably sure that wild magic will be heavily "larian house ruled" but in this case (unlike many others) I think that the Larian version has a pretty good chance of being better.

Paladin Smite: best solution would be to have a popup that asks whether you want to apply a smite (along with a box to check for the level of the spell slot to use). This is what Solasta does, and in my opinion it just works, and does not create too much hassle.

However, an alternative approach would be to have it be similar to the opportunity attack button. You toggle it when you are attacking an enemy that you would like to smite. The key here is that it needs to use the spell slot ONLY on a hit. I personally would find this implementation annoying, since I will inevitably forget to toggle it off and waste it on a half dead goblin. There would also need to be some mechanism for indicating what level of spell slot you want to smite with.

IMO rogue sneak attack should work similarly, toggle it on and then use it up when a hit occurs.

The difficulty of this game is that we have to put ourselves in Larian's mind (ugh), not just state how we wish it was done. For rest, I had it easy, since Nick Pechenin explicitly described how it would likely be. For class features, I have a lot less. The only starting point is what we already have.

Barbarian

• Rage : will probably work as Shapeshifting. They're both a kind of trance/super-state mode.
• Reckless Attack : I'll ... not say anything on that.

Bards

• Inspiration : I'd bet on a bonus that applies "to everything", Guidance style, but disappears after the beneficiary makes a roll. So it would really apply to the next roll only.
• Cutting Words : I'd bet on it receiving the same treatment as the Battle Master's Riposte (auto-consumes your reaction and Inspiration Dice). Perhaps only if the enemy attacks you.

Sorcerer

• Metamagic : I wouldn't be surprised if Larian ends up using a system similar to the Warlock's Eldricht Invocations, i.e. you choose customisations features that apply permanently. If they can implement it with their engine (...), they might also do something like Mage Armour, that you can cast at the beginning of the day (costing Sorcery Points) and lasts until you rest, as a sort of aura.

Wizard

• Diviner's Portent : another hard one, yet very important to me. I would bet on Larian rolling the d20 dice, and then, for a bonus actions, you choose one of your dice to be the result of the target's next dice roll.

BG3 has many skill checks that is arguably a time for skill-monkeys like bards to shine, but those are to a large degree used in a layered system to prevent perceived binary catastrophic failures. I suspect the important skill aspect of bards will constitute a relative nerf several reasons:

1. Save-scumming is prevalent in computer games as opposed to tabletop. Re-roll those failed checks as much as you want.
2. Friends cantrip is buffed in that it can be used indiscriminately. Everyone can now be a silver-tongued "mini-bard".
3. Tadpole wisdom and inspiration re-rolls.
4. Unlimited resting will take the Lucky feat (that could be used just to re-roll failed checks and regained after rest) from borderline overpowered to outright broken. Unless balanced to the setting in a way Larian hasn't done with any other aspects affected by resting mechanics afaik.

When it comes to Magical Secrets; the wizards has access to a de facto super version without practical limitations in that they can learn any and all non-wizard spells currently. Bards are one of the many classes negatively affected relative to that. This really needs to change. If any class should have this spell versatility (none should) - it clearly should have been bards.

I'm hoping Larian considers balance issues important enough to address at some point and compensate nerfs caused by the setting.

I would also like to add that Bards can't use Bardic Inspiration on themselves, so if you create one to be your main character and you want your main character to lead in every skill check because they're obviously the main character, you're not going to benefit from it. I imagine the eventual Bard companion is going to be extremely popular to enable the rest of the party to beat down the RNG of skill checks, along with the sheer utility that exists in their spell list.

That said, Bards have so many stacking bonuses to skill checks that they don't need someone else casting Bardic Inspiration on them. For example, I have +9 to Persuasion right now at level 3 thanks to Expertise, and range from +1-4 to everything else thanks to Jack of All Trades. The vast majority of skill checks I've seen with the mod ask me to just roll 6 or higher (without Guidance). I could roll a 1 on several of them and still succeed.

Interesting insight I hadn't even considered. Haven't played D&D in over 20 years and struggling to catch up on 5e in preparation for BG3. I had actually planned on playing a Bard as I would like my character to lead (dislike the origin system for this and many other reasons - like it being the likely reason we will have a mute protagonist).

I might reconsider now, but as you mention, they really don't need inspirations and have many other things to use them for. In any MMORPGs I played, I always disliked so-called "team friendly" powers that makes certain classes feel like "buff dispensers" allowing everyone but yourself to shine. I would likely become a "selfish" Bard that would prefer to use inspirations that negatively affect enemies, like Cutting Words, or buff myself lol.

I don't have specific predictions, but I'm confident that if there will be a way to make class-specific features cumbersome and unintuitive to use in terms of UI, Larian will find it and proudly serve it to us.

This, without saying nothing of the fidelity to the source, where most of the effort will be put into making them feel gimmicky and exploitative toward the general balance.

I am bumping this to highlight something worthwhile I found in the cesspool that is the BG3 subreddit.

Someone actually had a pretty elegant solution to the Smite dilemma, made under the assumption that the engine can't handle proper reactions. In the absence of one, this suggestion is probably the best possible way to handle it, given the known limitations.

Smite could be a free action spell that you can use after you hit an enemy (categorized as a spell so that you can specify what spell level slot you want to use for it). It would be greyed out in normal circumstances, but if you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you would then be affected by a status effect called 'Ready to Smite', and the enemy would be 'Branded for Smite', which then makes the smite available to use as a free action to inflict bonus damage on that specific enemy. It would copy the attack roll of the weapon attack that made it available to use (hence the buff recording that information), so that the smite damage can roll for critical damage if the triggering attack was a critical hit. Doing literally anything else before hitting that smite button would cause you to lose the buff and thus your chance to smite.

That said, a 'Branded for Smite' status effect would probably realistically last until the beginning of the enemy target's turn, which could let you do things like hitting one enemy and then a different one with your extra attack, allowing you to still smite the first enemy using the attack roll from the second enemy, but that's a relatively minor divergence from tabletop all things considered.

The coding probably wouldn't be able to differentiate between a melee or a ranged weapon attack, but I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of ranged smites, because that would actually be an interesting homebrew rule that expands build variety rather than limiting viable options like most of the other current homebrew. (And ranged smites to my understanding are possible in Pathfinder too.)

I have a feeling Larian doesn't want to overcomplicate stuff.

Bardic Inspiration will be like a AoE Guidance spell that affects all rolls. The time limit may be shorter though, like one minute.

Paladin smites, my guess will be like spells. It will be a melee spell attack, they already do it with Shocking Grasp. I think they will figure out how to not use a spell slot if the attack misses.

Plenty of space on that toolbar for all those buttons...

Looking forward to Metamagic needing you to do 4 different buttons.

The Minotaurs have reckless attack but its called something else. Reckless attack is an ability. Rage should be easy. Eagle vision might just be changed to a variation of darkvision. Eagle flying might be hilarious and awesome or boring and jump magnifier. The spirit ritual at level 10 might be tricky though.

Smite will hopefully be a pop up but a free action might work depending on how they do extra attack. I feel like extra attack will be a different button like you can see on zombie Npcs. So if you get a crit on one blow but not the other than maybe Smite higher damage? Not sure. I do hope Relentless Avenger (move on opportunity attack) is not butchered.

For bards I don't really see a problem. Some things might just be automatic.

Avatar Monk needs massive buffs. Reduce ki cost? I don't really know. Open hand seems fine. Shadow will probably be the better rogue like ranger. I may need to do more research. I only liked Kensei and they are unlikely to get in bg3 like my favorite samurai fighter. I just don't know how to escape stunning strike spam.

Sorcerer im not sure. Without divine soul I lose interest to quickly to be bothered. Similar to celestial warlocks.

Edit: Just checked the Minotaurs and multi attack as a separate button.