[DAD_2]
Hi RAZE.
[DAD_1]
"I may not blame the graphics department for producing countless objects that are confusing tiresome and unnecessary because it is a GAME DESINE mistake."
[RAZE_1]
So the only items you should be able to interact with are ones essential to the game? I would prefer more interaction and more uses for some items.
[DAD_2]
That was not the point I made. The way it is done, somehow influences the MC ( you, the player) to collect an endless assortment of items inside your inventory for selling them later to get enough money to buy a high quality item needed for higher level and difficult combat. You might even want to “teleport” by pyramid while selling your hundreds of items from within a shop to only finish the silly task of buying a good weapon, is that the main activity you really wish to spend your weekend doing? So what I am saying, not as a fan of the game but as a technical expert, is that THIS particular design concept is absolutely unnecessary. So technically speaking, it is the “Trade, Identify, Repair” interface concept that I do not find particularly interesting. I do understand that some people would enjoy trading, repairing and identifying, (whatever that means), but as a professional I do not find it particularly being a fabulous feature of the game.
You see, the “durability” value of a weapon is what makes repairing come in, and if you cannot repair by skill then you have to pay for it as in real life. Now take all this set of concepts out of the game and live without a durability number or a requirement of repair and the skill itself and imagine the paradise of focusing on the quests. The same thing applies to that “Identify” feature; it is absolutely unnecessary for the game and we call it “The Over-Featuritis Disease”. (BTW, I teach programming and system analysis too).
Take away the whole idea of buying weapons or selling them and live without gold coins and the need of collecting gold coin droppings. Find or make potions, and find strategic weapons then keep them in your non crowded inventory. Design the game in such a way that makes a specific weapon more effective against a specific class of enemy and THAT should be your better choice as a combat pretext. What joy is there in sorting out hundreds of items in your inventory or selling them to buy what you finally need if you had had what you needed from a well earned prise of a quest?
[DAD_1]
"1- In combat, the enemy characters drop weapons and money"
[RAZE_1]
As a divine warrior, I had no ethical problems joining the thieves' guild (an optional quest), or collecting loot.
[DAD_2]
It is not a matter of ethics here, but rather the game concept consistency.
You do lose reputation points by joining the thieves’ guild and dogs begin chasing you as an enemy.
Now why should a survivor (thief) lose points by joining his favourite guild, and why do dogs change their minds after you join! If you try to kill the thieves inside their guild you shall lose ten points from reputation.
A thief with level five of lock picking cannot pick the lock of a game critical door! It is all inconsistency that I am criticising here. That is why I find collecting dropped items agreeable with a greedy thief but not agreeable with a holy knight in shining armour when it is a constant feature of the game. Yes, the holy knight may collect some strategic items but do not force such a character to become vacuum cleaner.
[DAD_1]
"2- The randomisation of the charm quality..."
[RAZE_1]
Most people really like this, since it increases the replay value of the game. There should be some items with set values (or a narrower range) to ensure the items gotten from longish quests are not poor quality, so you are not forced to re-load to get a good item.
[DAD_2]
I do not see what is so cool about having to sleep or to drink a potion after you repair your weapon because it was charmed with a very large vitality and a very large manna stones! Once you take off that charmed item to repair it your maximum vitality and manna is automatically modified and wearing that charmed item again expands the maximum and you lose your previous vitality and manna magnitudes. It is all bad design and inconsistent concepts RAZE. It only makes the game look technically bad whether you claim that it increases the replay or not.
[DAD_1]
"3- It is quite illogical to build a character of a divine thief that seeks a holy grail and saves people from evil."
[RAZE_1]
Stealing from somebody is one thing, leaving them transformed as a cow for the rest of their life is another. However, if you don't think any thief can have a sense of honour (or desire for rewards), this is not a required quest.
[DAD_2]
I am talking about inconsistency again dear RAZE.
Are you supporting the game on teaching young gamers that steeling is not evil?
If you do agree that steeling is evil then I think you should reconsider the meaning of consistency.
Robin Hood or (robbing hood) was a revolutionist who believed that the rich were exploiting the poor and attacked them in robbery to redistribute the wealth among the poor. It is not the same thing as a survivor.
Games could be very dangerous psychological tools if they were not carefully designed.
Aladdin and the lantern as well as many Arabian Nights’ stories are classified as dangerous literature from an ethical point of view. The mere words do not fit together RAZE, a divine-thief or a divine-whore are oxymoron combinations.
[DAD_1]
"4- There is no good reason for separating the mage from the warrior..."
[RAZE_1]
There are differences between classes. I don't have a problem with the open skill system, though a few people have wished for either higher requirements or penalties for learning skills outside your class, or a strict class-only skill system.
[DAD_2]
You have no problems with tens of (passive) skills showing up in your selection tablet covering your screen!
The design concept of reaching an experience level through “kills” after which you may learn bless is definitely ridiculous. Being taught the skill of blessing spells after saving a child from a vampire is absolutely wonderful. The more you fight with a sword the higher your skill with swords is quite reasonable, but selecting a higher skill in bow arching after gaining points by sword fighting seems to be acceptable for you.
[DAD_1]
"5- ...the main character begins with a specific weapon and armour set while seeking a specific better set to be able to advance to the higher stage while gaining experience."
[RAZE_1]
That would be very, very linear as well as boring.
[DAD_2]
So it must have been quite boring for you to start out in DD with a chair leg with which you smashed skeletons. I hope you did not steel from Lanilor’s house while he was frozen or from George while he shows you his plant to get a better weapon to begin with. I think that giving that weapon to you by your mentor is much better than teaching you how to steel it, don’t you agree oh divine one?
[DAD_1]
"6- Solving riddles should automatically increase intelligence not only experience points and eating food should increase strength. The mileage the character walks should increase stamina accordingly and proportionally while running and combat increases the value of agility."
[RAZE_1]
Very good ideas. However, I don't think food should raise strength. Fighting while running could increase your offense and decrease your defense. Maybe walking around encumbered could raise your strength.
[DAD_2]
Food and activity builds the muscles in real life so why cannot they do the same in a game!
Offence is measured from the fact of initiative attacks rather than being a response to aggression stimuli while defence is inseparable from armour and the skill of using a shield.
The system of status in Devine Divinity leads to role playing dissociation of feedback and that is a very bad game design problem. It is based on random luck rather than earning the status through performance.
[DAD_1]
"7- Smashing skeletons with a hammer is quite imaginable but killing a skeleton with a dagger is ridiculous."
[RAZE_1]
True, unless you aim for the joints. Perhaps the Larians did not want (or did not have time) to implement that level of detail.
[DAD_2]
The graphics department team was definitely tortured beyond that level of details.
The game designer saw that a dagger had a fixed damage with an average value of ten while a paddle had a fixed damage average value of five regardless of what is being hit by whom or where.
[DAD_1]
"8- Weapons could have been set up to be appropriate to each stage. In Aleroth dungeons a war hammer is most agreeable while an axe is perfect for killing Orcs."
[RAZE_1]
You already have the option of switching weapons. I wouldn't want to be forced to use specific weapons in certain areas.
[DAD_2]
I never disputed switching weapons. I only suggested the timing of introducing a new weapon to enjoy learning the differences. This reminds me of the redundant vampire issue. The one that was in the cave was quite sufficient to be the same one who killed George (as could be discovered by hints) an herb in the cave and through clever conversation. That vampire should have been killed by a silver dagger poisoned with garlic and charmed with manna drain for example to be agreeable with mythology. Naturally you may choose another weapon and die. The vampire of Verdisitis was absolutely redundant and boring.
You are forced to choose to use any weapon with which you may win because if you loose you have to reload the last saved game.
[DAD_1]
"9- Dragons and flying enemies are best hunted with a bow of special qualities..”
[RAZE_1]
There are also few high quality consistently-in-the-game staves or maces.
[DAD_1]
"10- Imps are best hunted by a ranged weapon..."
[RAZE_1]
I found them easy to take out with my sword. Flash attack could have eliminated the little bit of chasing I had to do.
[DAD_2]
One imp at a time is fine with bare hands of the divine one, but when you are surrounded by twenty spider riders spitting poison from afar you bet you run in circles. My point is clear and simple that a bow is perfect for outdoors Aleroth and waste land. Bows and their qualities were neglected and the only bow I loved was HILFIN that I took from GAVARANAEL as a reward for rescuing his daughter. But this comes too late in the game. I played DD tens of times bet less than a hundred times of course and I assure you that an Elvin bow could have been my choice with the female enchantress while maximizing her agility and dexterity.
You can take out mighty opponents early in the game by such a ranged weapon without being mighty but agility is a must. When you help the bee queen against the wasps the best choice is the bow and electric thunder spell because they target a specific target clear and with barriers respectively.
I found the game design to be very bad on many decisions taken and neglecting bows is just one of them.
In Iona’s dungeon first prison I could have killed my guards by electric bolts and took the key by telekinesis if magic was not disabled to force being rescued by the cat Arhu. There are several other ideas on different ways to force the hero to fall in a trap better than that scene with Leona outside the castle. I also wished I had the option to escape from the castle and humiliation through a dungeon hatch and a corridor from which I fall at unavoidable rotten wooden flooring into Iona’s prison unconscious to wake up on her mocking voice then escape by using my magical skills. This way I do not lose reputation and the brat gets madder at my insult. After all I am the hero of the game.
[DAD_1]
"11- The magic spell of hell-spikes is a must use with some characters"
[RAZE_1]
I got along fine without it, though it is one of the more effective skills (physical damage can not be resisted).
[DAD_2]
As a gamer I have no problem with that either; I am expressing a technical glitch concerning the prevention of targeting a TARGET. There is no explainable reason for such a game design decision. Combat is what combat is and cleverness should be tested in the riddle quests not on restricting your attack method.
[DAD_1]
"12- Many quests are unfounded and corrupt the story line."
[RAZE_1]
Those are called side quests, and more is better. A strict story line series of quests would be very linear.
[DAD_2]
I do not understand your point in considering “linearity” to be against game play.
Side quests and branching are very welcome when the game designer abides by the branching rules and hierarchy. I can have a major quest containing four sub quests each of which with different branching levels.
Let us say that we came to the tenth major quest inside which we need to complete four sub-quests.
Quest 10-1, 10-2, 10-3 and 10-4, then each quest has its own sub-sub quests but once you reach the end of the branch YOUR DIARY must be appended to clear your accomplishment non entangled.
Quest cross-dependency is the worst error a game designer could make.
Let us say you went to Leptin and decided to deliver the grain order to Hague.
Hague then tells you about the poisoned fields so you find the cave but no Orcs are there and no keys of any cellars. From there you give up until you INVADE the house of the GOOD doctor and discover his deception. Why on earth do you need to go back to the poison cave to find an Orc that drops a key????
And if you did do that you discover that you have to pay Leptin’s dept to get score and complete the quest!!!
This cumbersome entanglement is not fun at all and here is a better scenario.
You find the cave of poison while chasing out bandits from the area (as a given quest).
You find a very special key tagged with B.B.I. cellars on it (it fell from Elrath there).
You find the Blue Bore Inn cellars near by and cleverly make a connection.
You open the room and find specific belongings with identity incrimination facts.
You ask the inn owner about the one who rented that room and conclude a relation.
It does not have to be Elrath at all but maybe someone who works in Stormfist castle adding pointers to Stromfist being evil. Leptin could tell you that he would love to place an order but he is in dept.
Leptin could offer some quality time with Magdalena or Yanez as a payback for paying his debts.
Jacob could tell the hero about witnessing the serial killer (not a vampire).
The serial killer has a treasure of rings and necklaces taken from murdered women.
One of those necklaces is a valuable ancient one that once belonged to an Elf Elite Lady with a priceless value of 500,000 gold coins (very hard to sell if trading was on) so the hero is forced to keep it.
I am only giving you one logical alternative for clean cut quests.
The story and the game design do have a huge space for improvement but it is too late to say that with a game already out. The sound effects and the fabulous graphics and animations with the very good programming had been devalued by the poor story line and game design.
Imagine that no silly killing ritual was ever needed and the Hero, the Elvin couple and the thief companion (friend) all went to confront the demon of lies with the thief ready to open locked barriers and the Hero in the front line while his Elvin couple a perfect marksman / markswoman defending her / his back.
The Hero would be even more alert to defend his company by being brutal agile and dexterous.
[DAD_1]
"13- Levers and keys are quite randomly distributed and no clever hints"
[RAZE_1]
They are usually close to what they open, and easy enough to find if you are looking.
[DAD_2]
I know that RAZE but where is the fun in stumbling into a key to a door right outside doors?
Entering closed places should be given by a quest that hands the key over or give hints on its place and there is the fun. If that was not appropriate then a thief companion saves the day.
There was no need for hundreds of silly obvious levers within the location and suffice one with a riddle at the main entrance for gaining intelligence points.
[DAD_1]
"14- The Larian armour is a cute idea but very amateurish and spoils the quality of the game."
[RAZE_1]
I liked the easter egg area.
[DAD_2]
With all my respect to your taste that area is totally outside the game.
You lose your teleporter in there which is a very dear price for a silly enhancement of armour.
You talk to the teem that created this game, which I said was very cute but completely irrelevant to the story.
You kill the bugs (debug) which is also very cute, but what the hell does 2002 gold coins and five “Dwarfish-Ale” bottles have got to do with this game? Cute is one thing and professional is a totally different thing. It only leaves the impression that this game was created by a group of very talented people who crave to be known, which is very amateurish and non professional.
Now imagine that we take all that part outside the game and provoke it from options.
Make an option with a title Credits and another with a title “Meet the team that created Devine Divinity.”
The never ending battle between the Evil and the Good is a very nice idea.
Teams being in prison is yet another cute idea that could have been largely appreciated OUTSIDE the game.
[DAD_1]
"15- The story should have been about the building of a character or developing a divine knight in shining armour."
[RAZE_1]
Sounds very linear... this could work for the start of the game to setup the plot and act as a tutorial, but I wouldn't want to play the whole game like that.
[DAD_2]
It sounds right, linear or not. The game could be made very interesting through a better story line and exceptionally clever riddles now and then interleaved with combat. I do not think that that would be boring at all. The “enemy” should be based on guards that guard the riddle and to have access to the riddle you have to fight your way through. How can that be boring!
An ancient easy riddle is a location with a set of mirrors and a treasure item very well hidden; you find a mirror that is misallocated that fits in a well lit place. When you place the mirror in its proper place the multiple reflections end up illuminating the hidden location of the treasure item. There are hundreds of ideas for higher levels of riddles and I did not find any of such style in the game save the magical mirror that duplicates the healing gem in water and the set of dragons that have to face north. I think the game started out professional and then ideas were depleted or a key person was fired. In other words, I came to believe that the game was designed completely in Aleroth and its dungeons by someone professional who was not any more with Larian studios when they decided to expand the game with Orcs, imps, lizards, and dragons.
If you do not go outside Aleroth you can complete all its quests as a stand alone game, right?
[DAD_1]
"16- The armour of the dragon is the most fabulous idea in the game while the treasure hunt is quite unfounded."
[RAZE_1]
So the armour should just be handed to you at some point?
[DAD_2]
I never said so; I was refereeing to the treasure map (four illustrations) that leads you to the Larian-Amateurs. That was quite unfounded and it was inserted to bring you to close proximity from the teleporter to the Larian team. On the other hand the quests of the dragon armour were very poor quests without any clever hints formulated by riddle. The game could have been wonderfully built around acquiring that set of armour with leggings, boots, amulet and rings added; a demon could have been the black dragon and the mighty weapon could have been a very special Dragon Lance that reaches the heart of that dragon. The heart of the dragon magically turns into a gem that augments the powers of the armour for the final quest. You take the heart of the dragon you kill not a gem guarded by a dragon. In mythology, the blood of the dragon falling on the armour after heating it with his fire breath is technically what the dwarves believed to harden the armour and weapons.
[RAZE_1]
It should have more consistent stats, but I don't think it should be required.
What about a mage without the strength requirements who is using mithril armour?
[DAD_2]
”Should be” is as in a better story line. “Myth Real” armour (300 points) is all over the place.
Make the Dragon breast-plate with (500 points) and weight (50 points) then tell me if you do not really like it. There is no point in trying to develop the strength of the hero beyond the strength of the beasts.
Intelligence and agility is all what is needed to win a good dungeons and dragons RPG.
Health can be protected by armour, clever combat techniques and great offence.
[DAD_1]
"17- The hero was forced to cheat his Elvin beloved..."
[RAZE_1]
Yes, that sucked. I never actually looked at the necklace in my inventory.
[DAD_2]
I am glad you agree with me on this.
[DAD_1]
"18- The transportation pyramids are some kind of cure to the very bad story line because the hero is forced to occupy a house by force"
[RAZE_1]
There are many abandoned houses, assuming you do not want to take Joram up on his offer to stay as long as you like. You can also just leave you stuff on the ground, perhaps around a teleporter pad.
[DAD_2]
No, that would not really be sufficient.
At the beginning of the game, the house at the extreme north (where the magical mirror and the leggings were found) seems to be the best choice for leaving the teleporter beside the bed for restoring health and manna. After George dies taking over his house is the best choice to be as close as possible from the gate and the Mage Teleporter, which could have been beside the sign to make life easier.
The story is poor and all the fixes are only consequences of it RAZE.
Do you think that the story was written before the game design rather than being an amateurish development on the way through brain storming; I do not think so.
[DAD_1]
"19- The cumbersome and unfounded travelling between cities, forests and towns is not a fabulous feature at all."
[RAZE_1]
You mean the non-linearity?
[DAD_2]
No, I mean the ridiculous travelling too and fro that wastes time without combat or riddle solving.
[DAD_1]
"20- The Stormfist castle episode is the most humiliating and ridiculous task that could fall on a hero forcedly. That particular part of the story is the worst part of all."
[RAZE_1]
So insult Janus, et al whenever you get the chance. It is unreasonable to expect him not to try something to curb your good deeds.
[DAD_2]
I do not even find any good reason to be given a quest to save Zandalor at all while he is the mighty mage.
Disabling his powers is a ridiculous idea. Forcing the Hero to be humiliated is even more ridiculous.
But if I chose not to go to the castle I may not finish the game.
A much better story plot is showing Zandalor and the third marked one in a flashback clip after a clip on the death of the second marked one at the D. B. Inn when the hero goes to meet Zandalor there.
Zandalor kills the dragon rider as he did before but says that it was too late to resurrect the second marked one because he had a red mark not a blue one (smiling). Then Zandalor decides to take me to investigate the Castle cellars where we find out about Janus whom the hero confronts and kills for killing his own father but the evil spirit escapes unharmed. Iona’s dungeon quest could be a branch during the Castle cellars investigation from which I get the holy weapon and come up at the place where I make the sacrifice or some other riddle scheme. With THAT holy weapon I can free Janus from the evil spirit that posses his body but Janus dies. From thence the battle is with Demon of lies and no need for murdering the council of seven.
The council may be assembled much earlier to direct the hero to seven quests (whatever they may be), and with each quest the hero gains an item or a skill which is critical to the final battle success.
You see, in my opinion, the story is really bad and the game design could have been a lot much better.
[DAD_1]
"21- A bad design point was forcing the hero to report back the completion of the quest to another character to append the diary!"
[RAZE_1]
If you agree to do something for someone, shouldn't you tell them when you are done, even if you don't have to bring back an item or information?
[DAD_2]
It depends on a case by case, but when you are forced to report, then at least the text that pops up should enable you from reporting but this is extremely buggy in this game.
Try to free Penumbra the assassin or take Gandolf’s quest after becoming a merchant’s guild member and see the bugs. If you do not take the quest from the summoner you cannot see Penumbra again or open the hatch in the summoner’s house.
All of that is still beside the point. What I exposed is the technical mistake of quest completion diary update.
The diary must be updated on quest completion regardless of reporting back or not.
Reporting back could be made essential to enable taking on the next quest, not to update the diary on completing a completed quest.
[DAD_1]
"22- This is a “Dungeons And Dragons” strategy game that should be designed on riddles and combat and keeping it simple as a line that escalates in difficulty..."
[RAZE_1]
That might have kept my interest for a weekend, possibly a week. Maybe, if I took enough breaks, I could have even finished the game if it was setup like that.
[DAD_2]
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with finishing a fabulous game in a weekend or watching a ten million dollars movie in two hours.
Secondly, difficulty should be born from combat techniques and riddle solving, not from cumbersomeness.
[DAD_1]
"the hero is supposed to find a cave after talking to a farmer and never before!"
[RAZE_1]
True, the game should be much more flexible about doing quests out of order.
[DAD_1]
"The hero is forced to pick the lock of the quarantine backdoor even if the hero was not a thief!"
[RAZE_1]
You can get the key from Lain (something like that) in the poor quarter.
[DAD_2]
Does he tell you about it or you just randomly grab all keys that show on pressing the “Alt” key all over the game locations and then begin opening doors illegally?
I admit that DD is a good school for thieves, but I find no fun in becoming one.
[DAD_1]
"Finding the three empty flasks was insignificant in the story and finding two cures rather than one for all is rather silly."
[RAZE_1]
The flasks were how the poison was delivered; they add atmosphere. The two cure potions was intended to demonstrate that sometimes tough choices have to be made and you can not always help everyone.
[DAD_2]
That sounds very nice in philosophy classes not in RPGs. This means that your diary must be littered with an unsolved quest unless you pickpocket a vial from one and give it to the third! Is that a tough choice too?
I am talking about a professionally designed game RAZE, and it should give the satisfaction that you play the role of a hero who could save all his subjects, which is unlike real life completely. Life is quite annoying enough that one needs a game to live a life of perfection and satisfaction. Why do I need a game to tell me what I already know and increase my disappointment in reality?
[DAD_1]
"The hero is forced to have a thousand coins to pay it to the engineer or face death!"
[RAZE_1]
Or face a tough fight... though there could have been a note or something before meeting the engineer warning of his desire to be paid.
[DAD_2]
Your suggestion is greatly appreciated. The damn story tells you nothing about the reason of the curse until you talk to the Engineer and find out the entire story a bit too late. If the quest is to raise the curse off the abbey then one should find out what was it first and have the chance to earn the money that he decides to pay. But I do not indorse the idea of money in this style of games. The engineer could have demanded an item as a reward for his deeds but someone got greedy and took it. Thus finding that item would have been a nice branch that slipped from between the fingers of the game story maker.
[DAD_1]
"As I said the game was devastated by Chaos by suggesting the visit to the Castle as early as looking for Zandalor the mage in the dwarves bread inn and succeeding in poisoning the Orcs well."
[RAZE_1]
There were enough clues around about the old duke's murder, harsh punishment for petty crimes, Zandalor disappearing etc. that I knew Janus was evil and suspected some kind of difficulty once I entered the castle. Maybe there should have been a level requirement to enter the castle, or a more explicit warning.
[DAD_2]
Oh but there is. Read the sign close to the gate of the castle. Also you may not enter without an invitation.
That is all beside the point. The whole castle episode is a poor story line; yes it is some sort of story of course but its quality is very poor from any professional’s verdict.
[DAD_1]
"In fact the waste land episode was very good."
[RAZE_1]
I found it a little long and boring, though I was in a hack-and-slash mood when I started off, so it was a nice change of pace for awhile.
[DAD_2]
Oh yes indeed, very long and boring, but the graphics quality and the layout of the land are fabulous.
The Imps’ animations and the sound effects were wonderful and amusing.
As a critic I paid attention to the synchronization of the sound effects with the Impish attacks animation; nothing less than perfect I must say. Remember that this is a bitter PRAIZE.
I loved the quality of the game and that was the reason of intensifying my disappointment with the story.
[DAD_1]
"I apologise for my bitter praise but as a technology consultant and a fan of your game I could not but post it as bitter as it is for a better future game."
[RAZE_1]
You do not have to apologize for your opinion; much of the criticism of Divinity went into improving Riftrunner.
[DAD_2]
The name sounds like “Blade Runner” and I hope that Larian hired some real professional fantasy writer before building the entire game on crap.
