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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Yes war/military flails are likely to not have been used, or at least not to any discernable degree, in real life. Which is why I didn't mention it. The flail, however, have much more historical documentation, up to and including instructions on usage and defence in martial art manuals (and there's also the nunchuck which, though ceremonial as it might be, is still a flail repurposed for martial arts). Whether or not it is smart to use over other tools available is another question entirely -- people are not 110% rational beings and desperate people use what they have at hand, not what they coulda shoulda woulda gotten. And you know, that was just one weapon. Are you also denying the use of bills, voulges, war scythes, and the others I mentioned? Or, say, of the Dacian Falx, the South Asian kukri, or the kama -- all sickle weapons?
Optimistically Apocalyptic
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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Yes war/military flails are likely to not have been used, or at least not to any discernable degree, in real life. Which is why I didn't mention it. The flail, however, have much more historical documentation, up to and including instructions on usage and defence in martial art manuals (and there's also the nunchuck which, though ceremonial as it might be, is still a flail repurposed for martial arts). Whether or not it is smart to use over other tools available is another question entirely -- people are not 110% rational beings and desperate people use what they have at hand, not what they coulda shoulda woulda gotten. And you know, that was just one weapon. Are you also denying the use of bills, voulges, war scythes, and the others I mentioned? Or, say, of the Dacian Falx, the South Asian kukri, or the kama -- all sickle weapons? I'm not denying that you could use an agricultural flail as a weapon in a pinch (though you'd be better off just using a staff because of the physics of the transfer of force), I'm denying the hollywood misconception you are promoting, that conscript levies in the middle ages, were just farmers who picked up their tools turned them into weapons, and marched off to war. That is wholly incorrect. If you want to read about the German Peasants War, where actual poorly armed peasants did form an army that started with farmers with military experience using their farm tools and hastily made "war scythes" (flipping a scythe blade vertically, forging a socket on it, and attaching it to the end of a stout pole), and ended up being filled with local militia that were supplied with pike/short sword/breast plate by village authority, mercenaries, disaffected knights, and professional soldiers, then I'd suggest The German Peasants' War: A History in Documents (German Studies)As to the rest of that about sickles etc, none of those are what soldiers on battlefields were fighting with, not even in SE Asia, China, and India in the middle ages. Bows, swords, spear/shield, javelins, pikes, etc, were all the commonplace weapons of war on the battlefield; not nunchaku which has no traditional kata, and was never used by soldiers of any army of record.
Last edited by GreatOdinsBeard; 20/03/21 05:31 PM.
A fondness for power is implanted in most men, and it is natural to abuse it when acquired. -Alexander Hamilton
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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A nice (not necessarily scientific) test spears vs swords. Conclusion, spears were pretty darn good, but one and two handed. Especially when you did not have a shield. And about 1 handed spears specifically Those videos were fun hehe. I like when they do the different teams. Or the part where they debate whether its worth grouping up with shields with only 3 dudes. Guess one of the things to hold in mind is that even a good shield can be dropped if you need to lol, but seems like worth having around. When they start playing with the legionary shields too, reminded me of a demo I once saw when I was in Classics. The lecture was discussing how the spanish gladius was used in tight formation with that shield specifically, and the money move for the Roman meatgrinder was actually the upstroke, with the primary goal of severing the opponent's femoral artery between the legs, secondary goal of nailing the auxiliary artery between the arms, then into the rapid stab to torso failing those, but basically going low to high in an upwards motion with the sword rather than the standard Hollywood overhand swing. That was presented as like an innovation in use of the sword in groups I guess, more than anything particular to that specific sword's design, though its obviously pretty famous for the era. But more just in the mechanics of how the whole thing operated as system, built on rotating the people up front constantly and quickly, in concert with that big shield and pila too. Always thought that was kind of cool, definitely tweaked with my idea of that world conquering sword. Or like that somebody had the grim sense to design the whole machine around making the other dudes' army bleed out as quickly as possible that way. Just crazy As for the spear + shield combo, if you have a sidearm like a sword too, then either could be dropped or flung in favor of the other depending on what's coming at you. Clearly from the videos, those guys all seemed to have way better control using the spear two handed which makes sense. But if you had to plan what to bring along not knowing what you're facing, seems like having a shield to go along with your spear to go along with your sword might be smart lol
Last edited by Black_Elk; 21/03/21 01:20 AM.
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