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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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Hello all! I have written some guides/tier lists for BG3 that you may be interested in. I will link my newest one below. I am a computer RPG veteran and long time fan of the Baldur's Gate series. I started playing BG3 early this year. I have spent close to a thousand hours on the original BG series, including a hundred or two on no-reload, solo runs. I have created a website to house articles and guides on computer RPG's like Neverwinter Knights, Icewindale, Pillars of Eternity, and most importantly the Baldur's Gate series. My plan is to focus on BG3 content, polish it to a shine by full release, then see if I can draw new players back to the CRPG classics. Here is the link to my latest guide, where I review all of the classes and sub-classes available so far: BG3 Class Tier List and Guide. Your feedback is welcome!
Last edited by Aestus_RPG; 24/03/21 05:17 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2021
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MM I laughed seeing the Rouge a C and the Cleric a S.
Rouges are simply killing machines in this game and when food can heal better then a Cleric, well why do you need one? Bless? ..lol. Rouges can do it all, solo the entire act one. Video's out there of them doing it.
only reason to bring a cleric is because Shadowheart is the only eye candy, romance option for 95 of the player base. (hetro males)
But hey, thanks for sharing your view.
Last edited by Tabuk; 25/03/21 01:23 AM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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MM I laughed seeing the Rouge a C and the Cleric a S.
Rouges are simply killing machines in this game and when food can heal better then a Cleric, well why do you need one? Bless? ..lol. Rouges can do it all, solo the entire act one. Video's out there of them doing it.
only reason to bring a cleric is because Shadowheart is the only eye candy, romance option for 95 of the player base. (hetro males)
But hey, thanks for sharing your view. You bring a Cleric for Bless and that's all about they're good for, which is still better than spellcasters. Can any of the Spellcasters do Inflict Wounds on a rank 1 slot while bringing Bless? Didn't think so. You want Bless anyways if your spellcasters are gonna land any spells in the Underdark or Githyanki patrol. Rogue and fighters>>>>> everyone else. Cleric would be even more important than Spellcasters if oil of sharpness wasn't a thing and melee had to worry about missing too.
Last edited by Zenith; 25/03/21 01:45 AM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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MM I laughed seeing the Rouge a C and the Cleric a S.
Rouges are simply killing machines in this game and when food can heal better then a Cleric, well why do you need one? Bless? ..lol. Rouges can do it all, solo the entire act one. Video's out there of them doing it.
only reason to bring a cleric is because Shadowheart is the only eye candy, romance option for 95 of the player base. (hetro males)
But hey, thanks for sharing your view. Thinking clerics are just for healing is level 1 thinking. Rogues are killing machines? Can you back that up or do we have to just take your word for it? In my guide I graph their DPR compared to other striker classes like the Ranger and Fighter, and they are considerably below par.
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member
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member
Joined: Jan 2021
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Hi @Aestus_RPG I had to step back and take a deep breath, after reading your article (big rogue fan here). The writing is excellent, it's more the content that I have ... "different views" I believe you rank the rogue tier C because of the rational highlighted in the text bellow: " The biggest problem is that off-hand attacks are not very good unless you have the TWF Fighting Style offered by Fighters and Rangers. Without TWF, you do not get to add your ability modifier to your attack roles or damage, and this drastically undercuts the efficiency of dual-wielding." To me, this is a bug. When you use [2 finesse+light] weapons, you get dual wielding and your dex modifier on the offhand. On internet, some people claim that there is no such thing as "offhand" in the 5th edition hence with light/finesse weapon in both hands you gain the same bonus. Currently on path 4, if you mouse over the offhand, you get see the dex modifier, however it's not applied when you check the log after doing damage with the offhand. That's a bug, it was working up to patch 3. Now, as I am writing this, I realize that my comment might be seen as "outrageous", especially that I am no gamer nor a D&D expert, so who the "beep" am I to claim that. And I am quite discourage right now as I am trying to find the text in the 5th edition PHB about this claim. Seriously, you need a PHD in D&D to understand all this .. All I have is the following, if you scroll down at "why is this so important" the guy says it, but I would agree that this is no reliable source - it's not the "holly book" / player hand book. https://rpg.stackexchange.com/quest...acking-with-rapier-or-two-dagger-attacksIf this turns out to be right, though (and I'm saying it's right until a hard proof) then I will be ready to argue that the rogue is a Tier S, according to your definition. until then, just make it tier S because Zenith and I say so. ok ?
Last edited by Starlights; 25/03/21 02:44 AM.
Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a bit, you realize the pig enjoys it.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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If this turns out to be right, though (and I'm saying it's right until a hard proof) then I will be ready to argue that the rogue is a Tier S If that turns out to be right, I will probably bump Thief up to S Tier, sure. It still won't compete with Great Weapons for pure DPR, but having two bonus actions is really strong for reasons other then pure DPR. However, the Rogue base class would still be C Tier. It needs something more. In table top D&D, Rogues get skill expertise and a few other things that Larian have removed, and its left them a little under-powered. I am optimistic that Larian will buff them by full release! Thanks for the kind words about the writing!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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According to 5e rules*, you add your ability modifier to an off-hand attack roll but not to damage. https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Combat#toc_6 look for "Two-Weapon Fighting" The fighting style, confusingly also named "Two-Weapon Fighting" allows you to add your ability modifier to the damage of the second (off-hand) attack. https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/fighter*Larian might implement two-weapon fighting to work differently in BG3, who knows?
Last edited by mrfuji3; 25/03/21 03:02 AM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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Thanks for catching that. I double checked some of my play test data, and off-hand attacks definitely are less accurate right now (it seems like it isn't counting proficiency bonus, but that shouldn't be happening). I edited my guide to reflect this. I'll do more testing tomorrow to see exactly what is happening.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2021
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MM I laughed seeing the Rouge a C and the Cleric a S.
Rouges are simply killing machines in this game and when food can heal better then a Cleric, well why do you need one? Bless? ..lol. Rouges can do it all, solo the entire act one. Video's out there of them doing it.
only reason to bring a cleric is because Shadowheart is the only eye candy, romance option for 95 of the player base. (hetro males)
But hey, thanks for sharing your view. You bring a Cleric for Bless and that's all about they're good for, which is still better than spellcasters. Can any of the Spellcasters do Inflict Wounds on a rank 1 slot while bringing Bless? Didn't think so. You want Bless anyways if your spellcasters are gonna land any spells in the Underdark or Githyanki patrol. Rogue and fighters>>>>> everyone else. Cleric would be even more important than Spellcasters if oil of sharpness wasn't a thing and melee had to worry about missing too. This has been my conclusion as well "Rouge and Fighters" better then every one else. However wizards with magic missel, fog, grease, misty step, they have a few cool stuff, they are still way better then Cleric. Having said that, still only up to level 4, things could change say at level 10. the spell casters can catch up pretty easy, in fact I expect them too.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Hello all! I have written some guides/tier lists for BG3 that you may be interested in. I will link my newest one below. I am a computer RPG veteran and long time fan of the Baldur's Gate series. I started playing BG3 early this year. I have spent close to a thousand hours on the original BG series, including a hundred or two on no-reload, solo runs. I have created a website to house articles and guides on computer RPG's like Neverwinter Knights, Icewindale, Pillars of Eternity, and most importantly the Baldur's Gate series. My plan is to focus on BG3 content, polish it to a shine by full release, then see if I can draw new players back to the CRPG classics. Here is the link to my latest guide, where I review all of the classes and sub-classes available so far: BG3 Class Tier List and Guide. Your feedback is welcome! Impressive work! Now, before getting into the actually valid critics, I'd like to point out that if it is within your power, I'd recommend a smaller font and row spacing so that your readers do not have to scroll as much. The text size and formatting feels overwhelming at first glance, which might be discouraging - especially for the new people who really would benefit out of reading your guide. With that out of the way - I'd like to state that when discussing class-tiers there will always be discussions whenever a certain class really is X tier or debates of whenever a certain class is more useful than the others. I agree with some tier choices, and others I disagree with (not that my opinion should be valued very highly, considering most people on these forums are much more experienced and knowledgeable than I am ) . However, regardless of which - I think the guide itself is extremely helpful, especially to newer players, only because of the detailed explanation of the classes and their sub-classes and the tips provided to each class' game play style and group role. I am not sure how hardcore the average CRPG player is regarding tiers, but I for one would never consider swapping my PC's class and character fantasy just because there are better ones for min-maxing - but having the information out there is great. Knowledge is always great!. So, while I certainly wouldn't make a character of class X and race Y just to min-max my session, the overall information in this guide is a welcome sight for people who simply lack experience and/or knowledge of DnD. I certainly would have benefited from reading it before engaging in the world of BG3... Fortunately for me, it worked out well in the end (thanks to some people on these forums!).
Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2015
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@OP:
Hi, your link to the first guide works as it should. But when you click on the link to the second guide you stay on the same page.
I could read the second guide by clicking on the word guide on top of the screen but not with the link in the text.
Prof. Dr. Dr. Mad S. Tist World leading expert of artificial stupidity. Because there are too many people who work on artificial intelligence already
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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For those unfamiliar with 5e, level 5 is the largest power spike in the game followed by a smaller spike at 7. It's why larian is scared of level 5 and will not release it for EA. So don't get use to rogues and fighters pulling out ahead. Different classes spike at different points throughout a campaign. Casters rule dnd unfortunately.
Just want to point that out. For reference.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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@OP:
Hi, your link to the first guide works as it should. But when you click on the link to the second guide you stay on the same page. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will get it fixed.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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For those unfamiliar with 5e, level 5 is the largest power spike in the game followed by a smaller spike at 7. It's why larian is scared of level 5 and will not release it for EA. So don't get use to rogues and fighters pulling out ahead. Do you really think Rogues pull out ahead right now?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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For those unfamiliar with 5e, level 5 is the largest power spike in the game followed by a smaller spike at 7. It's why larian is scared of level 5 and will not release it for EA. So don't get use to rogues and fighters pulling out ahead. Do you really think Rogues pull out ahead right now? If you build for dpr, maybe. I assume that's what you are focusing on. If you are talking about overall as a class then no. Once they fix some things and if you exploit happy status, loviatar blessing, the extra bonus action, and some items you could make a dpr monster for low levels. In the end it won't matter because Larian has been adding homebrew status's so it really depends. Pnp balance will not be 1 to 1 in bg3. They need better A.I. for that. Until the bugs are squashed guides are really just "what's the latest exploit". Ask me again when the game is further down the line or at least when the current classes have all their features.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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If you build for dpr, maybe. I assume that's what you are focusing on. They aren't even very good for DPR right now. You should read my Tier List, I compare DPR for the Thief to a Hunter and Battle Master, and it isn't great for the Thief.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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If you build for dpr, maybe. I assume that's what you are focusing on. They aren't even very good for DPR right now. You should read my Tier List, I compare DPR for the Thief to a Hunter and Battle Master, and it isn't great for the Thief. I did read it. I don't agree with many of your opinions. You need more testing. You posted it on reddit too right? You miss value a variety of things that some have tried to correct you on. I'm not going to debate with you, no offense. You would be better off comparing bg3 to phb, but even then you have to consider homebrew changes.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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If you build for dpr, maybe. I assume that's what you are focusing on. They aren't even very good for DPR right now. You should read my Tier List, I compare DPR for the Thief to a Hunter and Battle Master, and it isn't great for the Thief. I did read it. I don't agree with many of your opinions. You need more testing. You posted it on reddit too right? You miss value a variety of things that some have tried to correct you on. I'm not going to debate with you, no offense. You would be better off comparing bg3 to phb, but even then you have to consider homebrew changes. No offense taken! I understand completely, and I appreciate you taking the time to read the guide! Yes, I did post on reddit, and I got some really helpful discussion there, for example, I realized I was undervaluing Menacing Attack. I also probably undervalued Horde Breaker too; I am running more tests on it right now. Like anyone else, I tend to get stuck thinking about things a certain way, so I need different perspectives to help me understand the game better. Of course, not all the feedback I have gotten has been helpful haha. Some of the commenters were really condescending and were unable/unwilling to actually discuss and argue their opinions, but that is reddit for you.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Mar 2021
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Impressive work! Now, before getting into the actually valid critics, I'd like to point out that if it is within your power, I'd recommend a smaller font and row spacing so that your readers do not have to scroll as much. The text size and formatting feels overwhelming at first glance, which might be discouraging - especially for the new people who really would benefit out of reading your guide. I am glad you found it helpful! I will pass these notes on to my web designer. With that out of the way - I'd like to state that when discussing class-tiers there will always be discussions whenever a certain class really is X tier or debates of whenever a certain class is more useful than the others. I agree with some tier choices, and others I disagree with Fair enough, that is kind of the fun of tier lists in my opinion. I don't expect or even want everyone to agree with me. I just want to start a fun discussion that improves all of our knowledge about the game!
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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I can only speak for myself. I think of it this way: it's EA so things change every other month or so, no idea whether certain things are bugs or intended features. In addition some things need changes when translating from Pnp to video game format like Ranger and probably Monk as well as some rituals and missing spells like "spiritual weapon" and "shield". So to sit down and do a full analysis seems pointless with things being as chaotic as they are for me.
So I wouldn't be suprised if some are hesitant. Now for roleplaying I'll chat all for that, but min/max for me will wait.
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