Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Looks like Larian cheese is here to stay

https://www.destructoid.com/stories...-druids-and-baldur-s-gate-3-624779.phtml

Pushing and shoving

Of course, there is combat, and Vincke says the team is working on that aspect as well. He says they think it's a little bit too random still, in cases where they'd like it to be more tactical. They're also tooling with the RNG in some areas, and are looking for ways of streamlining it to have a "more modern experience."

Martial classes are a particular area he highlights, as having a party full of just fighters can be tricky, which I found pretty interesting. In my own experience, I've been loving the ability to push, shove, and throw things to manipulate the world with my Githyanki Warrior, and those mechanics are something he says he's happy people are grappling with. He tells me in a recent meeting, some of the studio members were discussing ways in which they had defeated an encounter using their own ingenuity and exploiting systems in unexpected ways, something Vincke says is one of the core pillars of what Larian is trying to do.

"I mean, that's why we put those mechanics in there," Vincke says. "So the creative use of the mechanics for the players is the thing that we try to maximize. D&D is about your agency, your creativity. We're trying to give you the same tool set still, in a fairly accessible way."

Looks like the developers are doubling down on their cheesy tactics instead of allowing players to use class abilities and spells in creative ways.

They could increase A LOT players agency/creativity if custom mechanics weren't so overpowered.

If D&D is about player's agency and creativity, let us also only play with D&D rules and spells and class abilities rather than impose us a good way of playing.

I'm 100% fine with their will to add more things and even silly things I won't use (like throwing boots or ennemies)... But please let me play this incredible game how I want to play it...

A better balance between custom rules and RAW mechanics is the only solution so players can CHOOSE and use THEIR creativity rather than yours.

This worries me but I'm not sure what it means yet.

If he means "drinking a potion of hill giant strength and throwing a duegar on top of another" that's lots of fun and I think it's fully in spirit of 5th edition. If he means "teleporting a badger across a pit and then running to collect other party members who are sitting in some out-of-combat time loop" then yeah, you're right, and this is bad.

Ugh. Hope he means the first.

They speak about roadmap in this interview. How sad I cant see this roadmap. In general, a good interview. I like to think that release version will be completely different, it's great.

I knew they were going to double down on cheese after the latest panel from hell. Why would you think otherwise?

I’m not sure why they are messing with RNG so much. If it’s so bad in certain situations (according to Larian), just get rid of it in those situations.

Hmmm. Meh I'm not bothered. In fact, fuck it, I'm all in. Only because martials don't get much and I know how strong mages can be starting ironically at level 5 and level 7.

From what I gather from the article they seem to be focusing on more difficult things first. Martial classes being left behind is very noticeable moving from pnp to video game format. It relies more on player imagination which technically should have translated to animation, but it seems they opted for more practical application. You can see this in pathfinder really well for example. You are nothing more than meat under a mountain of spells between foes and allies casters, if you can even see your martial character and is not dead.

I'm very familiar with the spells in dnd so I know whats coming for casters. They eclipse the game more so than Larian cheese not including solidstealthgods and maybe barrelbros. I guess most just skim or skip.

They also admit that they are only adding things they feel need testing so EA is not even a useful measure of anything really. They also admit that people misunderstood many characters. I'm ok with all of this actually. Maybe it was a lowkey nudge to the Haslin/Astarion worshippers lmao.

I hope some more start to see the bigger picture. EA is skewed pretty much entirely I can only assume. Its not the full game. Just a playground to test things. How much can change is unknown, but what is known is that it has. I can't do anything with that info one way or another.

I think I'll stick to just browsing datamine.

5e phb puriest will probably raise hell though.

Reminds me of what we have in Divinity: Original Sin 2. Warfare with a small dip into other schools is the optimal way to go, because spells have to deal with magic armor and elemental resistance, while physical damage only has to worry about armor. One knight who can teleport and nether swap, accompanied by a knight who can cast restoration, etc.

I don't mind buffs to fighter, but when shove overshadows whole other classes (because the game doesn't have reactions or readied actions, and spellcasters have to risk taking shots at disadvantage because of verticality). It's aggravating to think about every time I boot up the game. A lot of fun in D&D is seeing what each class brings to the table. It's designed for each class to be powerful and fun (ranger does have some issues, so as I said before I expected buffs for ranger). It's less bothersome in D:OS2 because the game was about the world and the characters, so it was okay to make a team of super fighters between Ifan, Sebille, etc.

That being said, if we do get more tools from the 5e ruleset, Larian's cheese isn't going to bother me at all. For example a lot of oil barrels should just be oil flasks you have to buy from a merchant. Creativity is native to D&D, it's currently an issue because spells are relatively weaker at the moment and we just don't have an appropriate implementation of 5e's rules as of patch 4.

Now let's take these thoughts into a vacuum:

-Start Vacuum-
For example if an IRL DM was buffing minotaurs by giving them multi-attack, I'd consider that lazy with a high chance to TPK.
If the DM said you have to declare all reactions within your turn...

Wizard, "Okay now the DM is just trying to kill us."
DM..."Oh but shove can launch a minotaur 5 feet! it's not just prone."

Wizard, "Wait, but Thunderwave does the same thing and requires a spell slot."
DM..."I want you to think creatively in this fight."

Wizard, "How is that creative? I would have to move my wizard in melee range of a minotaur."
"I cast scorching ray on the minotaur"
DM..."hmmm you're about 5 feet lower in elevation, roll at disadvantage."

Wizard, "Why?"
DM..."because I'm the DM."

DM..."On the minotaur's turn it leaps over the party directly at your wizard."
Wizard, "Don't my party members get opportunity attacks?"
DM..."Oh, I've been meaning to tell you all that jump is an bonus action that also acts as disengage"
"the minotaur moves next to your wizard."
Wizard, "......"

DM..."The minotaur shoves your wizard and you fall off the cliff"
Wizard, "I cast feather fall on myself"
DM..."Remember? I said you have to declare all reactions within your turn."
Wizard, "Why are we not using a lean towards rules-as-written?"
DM..."Because I'm the DM."

DM..."Your wizard is dead, you're now a Dwarf Battlemaster."
Former Wizard, "I shove the minotaur with the Battlemaster."
DM..."The minotaur didn't see or hear your Battlemaster walking up in full plate armor."
"The minotaur falls down the cliff next to the wizard."

DM..."See? I told you I wanted you to think creatively!"
Former Wizard, "I'm going to find a new D&D group".
-End Vacuum-

In Baldur's Gate 3 you get to reload with the foreknowledge that the minotaurs have been buffed, you can't react with spells at all, and would have been familiar with disadvantage from lower ground. It's anti-fun that you can't be proactive and use the spells that you would expect to normally use. I'll say it again I'm happy fighter and ranger got some buffs, but please stop punishing casters.

I hope this means readied actions, reactions, better rule implementation, etc. are on the roadmap.

Jeez. It's their own changes that made 5e less tactical. Revert them!

Free Disengage for everyone! Always go high. Always hit from behind. Always eat a cheese wheel. Shove, shove, shove. Dip and poison. Stealth murder the entire encounter in heavy armor without being seen. Long rest after every encounter. They killed the gameplay with these no brainer OP things you can do without any resource management.

I mean... BG3 is great in many ways, but Larian seriously don't get what tactical gameplay means. 5e RAW makes for a good tactical game and you absolutely could spice it up with more hazards and some explosives. But Larian won't see this with their tunnel vision where only "modern" DOS mechanics exist.

Team Halsin!

Well... yeah. But you gotta understand, even though us "5e purists" will "raise hell", it's for a reason. There simply weren't any good DND 5e games out there. There weren't ANY. And we desperately want them. We do have Solasta now, but BG3 is so much higher budget and so much better in acting, writing and story and permutations and such. So, naturally, us purists are going to go nuts when we hear the game is 5e. To then find out they are hacking our beloved 5e to pieces and adding puzzle pieces that aren't matching is of course making us sad.

I am sure the game will be good in the end, and I hope I will love the heck out of it, I am just hoping it will be far more of a DND game in the end, or at least that it can be modded into one. <3

Hahaha! Exactly!

There is a game called Solasta that is implementing 5e rules pretty much as written and it plays amazingly.

I agree with the OP and I guess I just have to police myself not to cheat and be "cheap" when it comes to combat as best I can. What else can we do since the cheese is here to stay?
But, what I have a MAJOR problem with is the inside jokes and personal stories that this game is ABSOLUTELY POLLUTED WITH. I want to feel like I'm playing a fantasy RPG, not intruding on peoples' personal lives and memoirs. For example, there's a book you find often in the game called A Pleasurable Deal that talks about someone named Robert and how his wife/girlfriend cheated on him with one of his friends. That's f!@#king gross and I don't want that in my game. I'm sure Robert doesn't, either. There's another letter you'll find in the burned-out town of Waukeen's Rest on one of the guards that talks about a girl finding one of her boyfriends "snot rags" that he left on the table and how she wants to break up with him but he occasionally says some funny things so she keeps him around. And tons of things about playwriting, a dwarf named "Brian", etc., etc. This whole game so far has felt like I'm in the middle of someone's selfie. Clean this crap up and act like professionals who are selling a product to the general public, not making a memory book or forcing people to watch your Hawaiian vacation slideshow.

Baldur's Gate II had several difficulty settings, with one being core D&D. It makes the game more enjoyable for players for different reasons. They included harder modes and the easier versions were often to fix the fact that it's a video game adaptation of a pen & paper game. I'm sure something like that will happen here.

@andreasrylander You have a lot of "I want" rather than "what is". You have to understand Wotc made expansions, rule changes, additions, etc. Which boils down to official homebrew. Larian are fully backed on this project by Wotc. Some how this is lost on many. Wotc are in this. Its official content. Hell some parts might be added to canon.

Have any actually played dnd 5e phb raw with no changes or expansions? Not even Wotc was fully happy with it. I don't DM, but it is important to keep the players in mind over being hardcore RAW. The goal is to have a fun experience. Wotc agreed some things need changing for the vision Larian, as a DM, has in mind.

Solasta is a different DM and are RAW mostly, but their vision is also quite different. Solasta is not perfect. Many 5e flaws are quite rampant. It depends on what you prioritize as fun. Again focus on what is not what can be.

Are some things crazy right now? Sure, but some people really go nuts and overboard. Completely missing the point of EA. Playground testing.

I've always wanted to ask: Are you a 5e purist if you are against official Wotc supported projects?

Not trying to pile on you personally. Just generally speaking semi rhetorically.

I am a huge dnd lore fan, but eventually I had to let some things go and focus on enjoying whats in front of me. It sucks, but eventually I'll get what I want. Just maybe not now with this particular project. Instead I focus on the chance to hunt squid monsters and maybe vamps, demons, devils, etc. Sounds good to me. Lol

If all things go smoothly I'll play both. I use to be a huge fan of gameplay over story, however I need purpose to my gameplay. These day's I need more stimulation. Just good gameplay does not cut it. Neither does just a good story. I need the complexity of both done well. I'm greedy like that. What I want/need is, for now, limited by what is.

Leash that expectation is what I'm saying.

No no no no no nooooooooo

I get the feeling one day you will be the one to spoil the story for me. Lmao. I feel it.

It's more about balancing the 2 layers of BG3 (D&D/Homebrewed) than difficulty levels but honnestly... I fear for higher difficulty levels...

If I'm able to solo'd the game pretty easily now because the basics of BG3 broke the balance (jump/disengage+backstab, highground godmode, dipping, verticality+shove,,...), what are going to be harder difficulty levels ?
My tactical skills and/or D&D knowledge and/or party build doesn't matter at all because as soon as you use Larian's homebrewed : you're a master of BG3.

So what ? Is that only going to be harder because ennemies will hit harder and because I'll miss them more ?
Will I still play the exact same as I was after 20 hours of gameplay but just die a bit more ?

Or maybe I'll have to stay in normal mode but completely forget about every cool addition because they're too powerfull ?

I like the game and I like many of their additions but something is really wrong in their balance.
The game lack of tactical depth and it's only because they impose us to use (some of) their mechanics in every combats... That's not what I call choices.

Panel from hell two should of been your clue to there intentions. They brought in Jeremy Crawford to talk about the druid class and give a thumbs up about tweaking 5e.

You come across as quite conceited and condescending there, but I am not sure you meant to do that, so I will give you the benefit of doubt.

As for your commentary on me spouting "I want" rather than "what is", you seem to not take into context that we *all* want things, but it doesn't mean I am not capable of grasping what the WoTC is, or their stance on things. Amazingly, I am fully aware of all the things you wrote. I am still free to have opinions, and I do. I have in fact written my opinions about these things in great depth frequently, and it is my belief that their homebrewing is not done for the betterment of this game at all.

I am not "against" anything. I would like things to be better though, and I would like your tone to improve too.

I have GREAT hopes for this game. This game is in fact the game I long for the most out of all games right now, and so I hope this game will be the best it can be. To that end, I do not believe their homebrewing so far is compatible with that outcome, and I always present arguments as to why I believe that is the case.