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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Why Can't my halfling ever say "I don't like being insulted, do that again and I'll gut you in an instant"? Why? Why can't my human, or my tiefling say that? It's a perfectly normal sentence that literally ANY character of such a threatening inclination might say. why is it that ONLY the "Racially Evil Drow (tm)" are allowed to say that? Why, Rag? Why are you defending that? Am i?  I specificly told: "If you find some options to be missing, its not fault of racial tag ... Its just missing options. :D" That dont seem like defending to me. O_o At least i could say with clear mind that it was not defending.  On the contrary ... yes, this specific sentence could be and should be usable by anyone ... if you need to hear that from me ... but i still dont think its fault of racial tag, i still believe the fault here is that sentence should have ben usual intimidation roll ... possibly with racial tag giving that roll a bonus. :P Since no matter if you like it or not, some races are simply more scary than the others. That's a very narrow view of character; A halfling who grew up working with the underground anti-slavery and abolitionist movements beneath Calimshan, and who had moved through various connections into more broad reaching work, and now helps support and supply the subversive abolitionist movements that hide themselves within drow society further into the underdark, who knows exactly how they treat run-aways in Menzoberranzan and has the notches on his belt to prove it, may well want to tell delicate know-it-all princesses like Shadow to step off before they talk like that to him again... Can't though. Can't, purely because I'm a halfling. Purely because of my RACE. Thanks Larian, and for shame. That is certainly a nice story ... But unless he had it tatooed on his face, how exactly should anyone who is talking to him know that? No matter how badass your halfling is, when he meets someone new, its simply just a halfling ... He may of course try to intimidate anyone, just as anyone else should have that option ... but you cant possibly expect your enemies to know your history, unless you take that time and tell them. I dont believe its because of your RACE ... Its bcs there simply is not intimidation option with every dialogue ... And that is just to make sure that when we will intimidate anyone, it will have some impact on story ... its kinda dull, when you have seduction / intimidation / persuation / deception ... in litteraly every single conversation. For two reasons ... 1) it gets boring, since they all usualy leads to same result ... 2) It takes away part of complexitiny in char. creation, since once you have proficiency with single of those options, you can dump all others. Drow. Are. Elves. It's SUPER IMPORTANT to their cultural identity.
They are racially distinct from wood elves, from sun elves, from moon elves, etc., However, they are ALL elves. They ALL have different cultures, lifestyles and societal structures from one another. They are all still elves. The fact that Drow are of the elven people is incredibly important to who they are.
This isn't even a discussion; it's just a basic fact of the world space. I think we missunderstand each other here ... I didnt want to claim that Drow are not elves (that would be truly foolish ), i just dont see any reason to create mess with including them to elves as sub-race, since they are sooooooooooooo different from every single other elves. o_O I just feel like i said the same ... I mean when you compare High Elf and Drow ... there i major differences ... When you compare Wood Elf and High Elf ... the differencies are more like nuances than anything so major ... How about rather than pushing for a reinforcing of groups of people being branded as evil and not evil based on a locked in, in the blood, distinction of race choice (which is what it currently is, no matter how much apology you make for it)... you instead petition Larian to change this so that your background - that is, the society you were born and raised in - is something that you choose as part of your... I don't know... Background? Not your Race? You're talking about social history; you're talking about upbringing; you're talking about where you've come from, and what you begin the adventure believing... all of that, which is what you're talking about here... that's all Background. It's not race. It shouldn't be decided by your choice of race. It sounds to me like quibble ... Society is made up of members of your race, their behavior is the behavior that your surroundings will expect from you ... and not on the basis of what you have experienced (ie background) but on the basis of what they see at first sight (ie race)
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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Maybe you aren't intending to defend this game design choice, but it very much comes across as though you are with the way you've worded things previously. A discussion of how we speak and how things come across isn'' really a major part of this dialogue so I'll spoiler it out below, but do take a look through, please; I'll say in advance, it's intended in a friendly and good-natured way, because I feel as thought there's a legitimate issue of communication and speaking past one another here, and I don't want to fall into an argument based on a misunderstanding. This is a conversation about what our characters can or cannot say To NPCs. You said that I could still threaten the person in question, just not with the 'drow' lines; the drow lines that have nothing whatsoever to do in any way with being a drow, and are just generally threatening, and which we're in agreement everyone should be able to say if anyone can... the point being that in game right now, that is not true. That halfling Cannot tell shadow to step off with her back-handed insults. ONLY a "Racially Evil Drow(tm)" is ALLOWED to make that threat. That's the problem; no-one else is allowed to tell her to step off at that point, at all. It IS because of your race in this case, and Purely because of your race that you can't; another character can, and this character can't, and the defining reason for the difference, the mechanical explanation for the difference, is RACE. It seems that we genuinely do agree that it shouldn't be - but it also comes off in your talk as though you're still trying to claim that it's not a distinction based on race and race alone, when the pure and simple fact of the game right now is that, undeniably in the mechanics, that is exactly what it is - a racial block to a completely mundane normal dialogue choice. I am heartened that we do at least seem to be on the same page for agreeing that such lines shouldn't be. Despite the back and forth, it sounds like we're actually agreeing on that score at least. Moving on, i just dont see any reason to create mess with including them to elves as sub-race, since they are sooooooooooooo different from every single other elves. o_O Putting one branch of the elven people off on its own, as a separate race, as though they were not part of the elven people, and then giving them sub-races of their own, that are not racially distinct groups but only socially and culturally distinct, yet still calling it a racial distinction... THAT is a mess. THAT is awkward and counter-intuitive. Putting a branch of the elven people in next to the other branches of the elven people, under the race of elves, is explicitly not a mess, nor confusing. It is exactly what one would expect, and the way it should be. The rest has very little bearing on the actual conversation, but I'm putting it here because it seems like it may be an issue of communication more than anything else. As I said at the top, this is intended in a friendly manner. == But you are still completely able to threaten "cretin" ... not just with the same words, and those words you mentioned are used only by Evil Drow, That reads as you saying that only these 'racially evil drow' could want to threaten a person at this particular juncture, and reaffirming the game's design choice to enforce that; You've back-tracked that now, and I can accept that there may be a slight communication and language barrier here, that's making us speak past each other at times. I'm sorry for my part in that, if I've contributed, but the way you spoke first in your previous post very solidly came across as you defending it, even if you didn't mean to. It doesn't help when you say things like: NO Halfling will ever be scarry, when he will talking about how they do think in Menzoberranzan. and Since no matter if you like it or not, some races are simply more scary than the others. Those things come across very strongly as you supporting and defending locking mundane dialogue behind race. If that's not your intention, that's still how it comes across when you say things like that (the former more than the later). You now say: I didnt want to claim that Drow are not elves (that would be truly foolish ), But whether it's language or communication barriers creating confusion or not, saying this: “Im sory, but i DO want Drow to be separate racially from elves … Since they are.” Looks very much like you are wanting to say that Drow are racially distinct from elves; that elves are one thing and that drow are another; that elves exist, and have various branches of their people, and that Drow exist are are not either of those things. That is certainly a nice story ... But unless he had it tatooed on his face, how exactly should anyone who is talking to him know that? No matter how badass your halfling is, when he meets someone new, its simply just a halfling ... He may of course try to intimidate anyone, just as anyone else should have that option ... but you cant possibly expect your enemies to know your history, unless you take that time and tell them. That's certainly a nice strawman you're pointing your lance at over the hill over there, far away from the conversation and unrelated to any part of it. I'm not sure why you've decided to go on this particular tangent, no-one is implying that anyone should know anything about our characters. That's not even been a part of the conversation at all. You're not adding anything to the discussion with this argument against something that no-one said in the first place; I have to guess that you believe that this was what was being spoken about in some manner: for my own curiosity, what led you to feeling as though this was something that was being discussed? Society is made up of members of your race, their behavior is the behavior that your surroundings will expect from you ... and not on the basis of what you have experienced (ie background) but on the basis of what they see at first sight (ie race) Social culture and race are not the same thing, in any way. They never have been, and they never will be. There's a lot of overlap, sure, but they aren't the same. The society you grow up in may be composed primarily of members of your own race... or it might not be. Racial culture and known trends or stereotypes exist, certainly, and that creates various expectations that people may have upon meeting your characters. That determines how they might talk to you at first... but it has no bearing whatsoever on what you as a character should be allowed to say to them. Again, you're pointing at something that is not at all what we're talking about here, in any way, and hasn't been. This conversation has not been about what others say to you... it's been about what you can say to others.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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I've enjoyed the game so far but, as a fan of drow, there is something I am a bit puzzled by. When I try to make a drow a cleric they only have freedom to choose a deity other than Lolth is when they are seldarine. I think lolth-sworn drow should be able to have deities other than Lolth, she isn't the only one in the dark seldarine (adding the rest other than Eilistraee would be interesting too), but the only one drow can be out about worshipping to stay alive and not be sacraficed or turned into a spider monster. And what if people wanted to roleplay a drow from the underdark that slowly moves away from Lolth over time in game? That isn't really allowing them that freedom, assuming we will be able to pick a deity like our companions have later on due to their level up screen. And to my understanding the drow who are seldarine are ones that did not go to the underdark and lolth-sworn are ones who did go to the underdark? If not does a drow's eyes change when they renounce their allegiance to Lolth? That certainly doesn't seem like the case for Minthara. Maybe that should be addressed somewhere once the game is fully released. Although if I remember correctly Drizzt had purple eyes from birth? And the two types of drow function the exact same in stats so it almost makes separating them kind of.... redundant except for the different descriptions that could be put together as a race description. I understand why they are not one of the other elves in character creation though.
Last edited by QueenofCreatures; 23/04/21 09:55 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Apr 2021
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I for one LOVE the Drow content so far, but I can see how people can become confused when they're not grouped with Elves. The UI for the race selection is straightforward and all options have at least the same sized icons. Playing a Drow Druid is quite unique, I must say. Now it actually makes a lot of sense when your Drow character warns of the dangers of the Underdark and stuff. An intelligent player will figure out how the mushrooms work no problem, but it is a nice little touch when your (exiled) character cannot keep their mouth shut about the environment (maybe there should be a way to turn that off or for your companions/fellow players to tell you off, it could be included in a little pep-talk when the underground section is first entered)
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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As I read another post asking for this, I just wanted to come back to this older thread, summarise why the current situation of Drows as a Race is poor choice, and add in some new information that Larian released recently (post Panel From Hell 8). I'm going to leave aside the fact that Larian's choice isn't quite so compatible with D&D lore (where Drows are Elves). I'm going to leave aside the fact that Larian is implying that there is a connection between Subrace (what an individual is from birth and cannot ever cease to be) and who they worship (which is but one of many cultural aspects and can change through an individual's life). I find that implication very poor taste, but hey, Larian's view on this, and world-building, and lore, is Larian's view. I'm also going to leave aside any discussion about the appropriateness of naming one Subrace Seldarine Drows (it doesn't mean anything to me, despite the fact that I feel I am decently knowledgeable about FR lore ; quite possibly it was never defined before). Drows as a separate Race is a poor UI choice.Firstly, consider the other groups from the Underdark. The Gnomes from the Underdark (the Deep Gnomes) are categorised as a Subrace of Gnomes. The Dwarves from the Underdark (the Duergar) are categorised as a Subrace of Dwarves. And so it would only make sense that Elves from the Underdark (the Drows) would be categorised as a Subrace of Elves. Secondly, consider Half Elves. This Race is divided in 3 Subraces that are named Half High Elves, Half Wood Elves, and Half Drows. The first two (High Elves and Wood Elves) are Subraces of the Elves Race while the third (Drows) is a Race of its own. This is an inconsistent rule for categorising and naming the various kinds of Half Elves. For Half Elves to be consistent, one of the following would need to be done. Either create a new Race called Half Drows, with 2 Subraces : Half Lolth-sworn Drow and Half-Seldarine Drow. Or make Drows a Subrace of Elves and leave Half Drows where they are, as a Subrace of Half Elves. The second option is the better one. Thirdly, consider the two Drow Subraces. They have no mechanical difference. For every Race other than Drows, if the Race has Subraces, these Subraces come with mechanical differences. Drows break that pattern. What's a new player to make of this ? If there is no visible difference, what's the difference ? Good question, but don't expect to find text in the character creator explaining to you that this choice of Subrace is actually not truly a choice of Subrace but rather a choice of a tag that will be used for in-game reactivity. Larian's rationale for the choice of making Drows a separate Race with 2 Subraces.The arguments above were made long ago. Larian, in their infinite wisdom, decided that they weren't good enough reasons to re-organise the presentation of the Drow-related player options. In a recent video published on GameSpot (4:03), however, Larian explained their reasoning for taking Drows out of the list of Elven Subraces and making it a Race of its own. It goes like this. They decided to split off the Drows into a separate Race, in order to highlight how much reactivity/gameplay/specificity there is behind playing as a Drow. I have no doubt that this intention is going to be crystal clear to the new players who will jump in BG3 without having listened to that GameSpot video, without having player Early Access and without knowing about tags and reactivity. In summary, Larian's choice to make Drows a Race, with a Seldarine Subrace and a Lolth-sworn Subrace, makes the character creation UI inconsistent and illogical. But it also doesn't properly communicate to players that signing up for a Drow (and a specific Drow Subrace) comes with extra reactivity. Suggestions for a better character creation UI.- Make Drows a Subrace of Elves.
- Have Drows choose a Deity an Allegiance/a Group : Lolth-sworn or "Seldarine".
- Include text, preferably not in a tooltip, to explain the meaning of this Allegiance (this is not standard D&D Lore), and to explain that this choice will greatly affect reactivity (mostly dialogue options), much like a choice of Deity.
- Have Half-Drows also choose an Allegiance.
Benefits : - More logical and consistent UI.
Elves have 3 Subraces. Accordingly, Half Elves have 3 Subraces, one for each Subrace of Elves.
Subraces have mechanical differences. Accordingly, the choice of being Lolth-sword or Seldarine, which comes with no mechanical difference, is not a choice of Subrace.
Half Wood Elves get Fleet Of Foot, just like Wood Elves. Half High Elves choose a Cantrip, just like High Elves. Accordingly, Half Drows choose an Allegiance, just like Drows.
- Better communication of the reactivity of Drows and their Allegiances.
Broadly speaking, it's probably not great design to implement 10 Races but have some be superior choices. So it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to explicitly say "Drows are our favourite. You'll get more reactivity if you choose this Race". Just like it would probably not be good to explicitly say "short Races are a bad idea. We don't like them so don't expect great reactivity or Halflings that look good".
- More player agency.
Why is it that if I play a Drow, I get to choose which Allegiance/Group/society my character come from, but if my character happen to be a Half-Drow, I can't ?
It doesn't sound like a stretch of the imagination to envision a character with an Eilistraee-following Drow parent who married (or just shared some good time with) a Human, and passed their Eilistraee-influenced values to their child. Like it's not a strech of the imagination to envision a Half Drow whose mother was a Human slave used for pleasure by a male Drow, and who decided to show the full-blooded Drows that he or she could be meaner, badder, more treacherous and Lolth-fanatic than them.
- Minimal work required.
There's already a UI to let a Subrace choose options (e.g. High Elves can choose a cantrip). There's also already a UI for the choice of Deity, which applies a tag to the character, and that tag can trigger special reactivity. All there is to do is to replace the list of Deities by a different list : {Lolth-sworn, Seldarine}.
Extra suggestion (in case the goal is to do things well rather than half-arsed) : - Actually, don't have Drows (and Half-Drows) choose an Allegiance from the list {Lolth-sworn, Seldarine}. Make them choose from the list {Lolth, Eilistraee, Vhaeraun} (or more). In fact, don't call this parameter an Allegiance. Just call it a Deity and make it be the same as the choice of Deity that every character should have. Then, when generating tags for a character, if the character's Race is Drow and the Deity is not Lolth, then apply the same tag that Seldarine Drows currently receive, and voilà.
- Stop using the term Seldarine for Drows that don't follow Lolth. Eilistraee isn't part of the Seldarine (the Elven Pantheon). Vhaeraun certainly isn't either. And I don't think I heard that the Seldarine are ok with Drow followers.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2023
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We call this "a solution in search of a problem."
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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We call this "a solution in search of a problem." Like bitcoin!
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2023
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We call this "a solution in search of a problem." Like bitcoin! Who needs Bernie Madoff anyway?
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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That's a lot of effort to fix something not broke.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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I'm going to leave aside the fact that Larian is implying that there is a connection between Subrace (what an individual is from birth and cannot ever cease to be) and who they worship (which is but one of many cultural aspects and can change through an individual's life). I dont really think this is matter of worshipping ... More like who claims your soul after you die ... I mean if i remember ingame description corectly, it says that their Red eyes are mark from Lolth that she will claim them. Wich seems significant enough to me. :-/ --- Also ... While i perfectly understand compulsive obsession with sorting things your own way ... it was main (and often only) reason for all my hotbar feedback. I dont really think that having them separated makes Drow any less elvish. O_o
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jan 2023
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Dear Niara!
I heartfully agree with your comment, in the matter of fact I already made a thread about this (with not too much comments¯\_(ツ)_/¯, BTW I'm happy about that I'm not just the only one who wish a game that not just correct to that (stupid) E5 but correct to the world FAERUN!), but what they do/done with the elves (not just the drows) is wrong! Not to mention how deeply doesn't fitt in this way with the other races as well! Doesn't matter what the E5 stupidity (sorry but for now must say it clearly because it is what it is) said about this, just because in the E5 some persons wanted to make make simplify (or wanted to higher the "wow and cool factor" to make similar to Skyrim) the elves, that doesn't make the Sun elves or the Moon elves magically "high-elves" and just as you said doesn't make the drows other than DARK ELVES which is a subrace of the elves!
Somehow in "Dragonborn" or other cases (for example dragon blooded sorcerrer) they can make the whole thing with just some X in the right square instead of separating the race to "other subraces" or "other races" but somehow they can't do that with the elves (just because that way have in that stupid E5) how interesting!
So if they want(!) they can do the sameway just as the dragon bloodlines choosing: put the drows under the elf tab and inside the drows are two squares one for the Lolth sworn and one for the Seldarine! BUT NO they don't do that just because again that's the way in the E5!
Just as I wrote in my thread they have the freedom to correctify what's wrong in the E5, and the point that is the "game is in FAERUN" (which already have hundreds of novels) is much more higher category than that damn E5 but they won't listen...
BTW here is my original thread:
"Please Larian, for last time and for the God Sake, PLEASE CORRECTIFY THE CHARACTER CREATOR! (or C.C. for short in the future)
I know you wish to implement the tabletop rules, and I get you use the E5, BUT even in the E5 PHB that’s Incorrect, Wrong, Illogical ...etc.! (don't wish to continue the listing but can)
There is a category which is far more HIGHER than the E5, namely: the game is in FAERUN! And in the tabletop it's easier to call just "High-Elf" the elven subraces which have the same statistical traits (and I bet that was the idea (doesn’t matter how st#*.. was that idea) behind in the E5's naming) but absolutely incorrect when you could have visualization of the characters!
Did anybody ever read a Novel in Faerun (or any other fantasy world) where the characters description looked like this or played any tabletop where the DM was soo poorly described the character as: "In the road coming an elven subrace who have +1 racial bonus for intelligence (or +2 for Dexterity and +1 to Charisma)..." NO!
So the elven subraces naming not just come from their skill traits, BUT FROM THEIR COMMON VISUAL TRAITS AS WELL! So even for this viewpoint to call a "Moon Elf" or a "Sun Elf" simply a "High-Elf" is WRONG especially when we can see it clearly! (Shadowheart and Astarion is "Moon Elf"s (and half) as it is, and the Counsellor in Waukeen's Rest is a "Sun Elf" as hell!)
BUT OK, I putting away this OBVIOUS REASONS for a minute, because not every player read the novels. Let's see just strictly from the view of the world (Faerun)! So "Faerun Common Knowledge 0.1" The word "High-Elf" is a "COLLECTIVE NOUN/NAME" for EVERY SELDARINE ELVEN RACES! So the Moon Elfs, Sun Elfs, Wood Elfs(!), Wild Elfs, Seldarine Darkelfs (or Seldarine Drows(!)), Sea Elfs, Avariel winged Elfs, Lytharis (wolf shapeshifting Elfs)...etc. THEY ARE ALL "HIGH-ELF"s! So the "High-Elf" word only can't use for the Lolth Sworn Dark Elfs! I don't emphasise how stu#*.. is this even in the E5 PHB! (but luckily in tabletop game every D.M. have the freedom and choise to not use this stu#*..)
So as races and subraces we have High-Elfs and other High-Elfs "who's not so High-Elfs" or we have "Higher High-Elfs"? => Wrong, Illogical, Incorrect etc. etc. etc. even from this (and BTW all) viewpoints!
Oh and another point, somehow can implement the other races "correctly" but somehow that doesn't work with the elves (just because from that E5 stu#*...)....
All right so throw away the LOGIC, throw away COMMON KNOWLEDGE, do it this way, BUT(!) in that case please make a separate race for the Gold Dwarfs (Eartheart (fromerly Great Rift) Gold Dwarfs, and Wandering Gold Dwarfs) the Duergars (Underdark living Duergars, and Castaway Duergars) the Shield Dwarfs (Citadel living Shield Dwarfs and Wandering Shield Dwarfs) the Githyankis (Gith Sworn Githyankis and Renegade Githyankis) the Half-Orcs (Civilized Half-Orks and Wild Half-Orks) and almost forgot to make every Human archetype as a different race or subrace as well (Rashemen, Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, Halruua, Chult, Cormyr, Turmish, Chesenta, Mulhorand, Thay, Impiltur, Sembia, Damara, ....etc. etc. etc. Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara) Because with that E5 "logic" done with the elves, this would be the logical decision with the other races as well (just for fitting and equal)! Wouldn't be so much more logical and easier to just finally correctify the (that E5) mistakes in the Elf races and subraces and make them not just correct but more fit to the other races as well?!
So dear Larian Studios please finally understand that there are players in the world who's not read the novel because they played the game or the tabletop, THEY PLAY THE GAME ONLY BECAUSE THEY READ THE NOVELS AND LOVE FAERUN! So please create not a strictly E5 correct game but a "FAERUN CORRECT" game, because that's the Higher Category! And have the "Creator’s creative freedom" to correctify what’s wrong even in the E5!
So even if it become or came out just as a Day1 Patch, just as I started: Please for the last time and for God Sake, PLEASE CORRECTIFY THE C.C.! Because in this way is Wrong, Irritating and Annoying as hell!"
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