Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides The Turn-Based/Real Time with Pause topic

Rtwp is absolute chaos to me. I hope they add the option for those who want it, but I'm glad its roots are turn based.

It can be done. Just write scripts for characters like NWN2 and similar games. The 5e rules can handle RTWP. I have no doubts. Assign timing for each move. Actions cost 4 seconds while Bonuses are 2, or something like that. Reactions are instant. You might, naturally have to tweak some rules, but the basics could be done.

I just don't like RTWP as stated in my last comment. I can't control characters as well. I imagine the fight against the Gith even as RTWP. They're porting all over the place and hitting my characters. I'd have to spam Space a thousand times to ensure everyone is using their skills and abilities to their fullest potential.

That's why I hate it. To REALLY use your abilities strategically and most effectively, you have to spam Pause constantly anyway every second or two to make sure everyone is cued up right. Then, if scripts aren't done right, or you forget one of your characters for a moment, characters may even override your commands or do nothing for whole seconds and do things you don't want them to. I cant tell you how many times in BG1 and 2 I found Imoen just standing there doing nothing because I was so focused on others and didn't realize she had run out of arrows and spells and such. She would just sit and vibe because I was busy trying to keep my main from doing. Either that or I'd discover she was killed without me even realizing it because while I was focusing elsewhere, another enemy came up elsewhere and killed her and she was too stupid to run and cry out for help.

I'm just saying, to play D&D using max strats, the best way is TB. If you want hack/slash games, there are other D&D RPG games for that, like BG Dark Alliance. Trying to make a tabletop game not turn based is just contrary to the whole point of creating this kind of game. Basically, you are trying to blend hack/slash with Tactical games, and it is just not a good blend... IMO. What you wind up with is something kinda tactical and strategic, but not really. This satisfies the people who don't care for games like Risk or Chess, but leaves the rest of us always wanting more.

This said, I don't mind them making RTWP an option. Just don't take away my TB.

One thing that might be a good compromise that I've always wanted someone to do:

An RPG combat system where players pick their moves and targets, and then the combat plays out a full round before your eyes, all combatants moving simultaneously.

So, how that would work is, I select my main, pick attack Goblin Captain. I then pick Use Shield of Faith as my bonus action. I pick Gale and select Magic Missile and pick Goblin Shaman as target. I pick Lae'zel and select attack Goblin Berserker. I have her use Action Surge and pick Berserker again. I pick Shadowheart, choose attack Shaman and Shield of Faith. I lock in decisions and the round plays out. If an enemy is killed before all actions used, game pauses and asks for me to pick another target. If enemy moves out of range, I again pick another target. Something like that. After all actions for the round are used up, game pauses again for the next round selections. As far as who might hit who first, the higher initiative wins.

So it is still turn based but everyone moves simultaneously each round and yoy never know what your enemies are gonna do. Kinda like Xwing Tabletop by Fantasy Flights.

Depending on who you ask (see page 87 of this thread), this is how D&D 2e combat works. Everyone declares their intended actions, then initiative is rolled, then the actions occur. If you were planning on shooting an arrow at a goblin who died before your turn, well, congrats! Now you shoot an arrow at the dead goblin, or it dies while your arrow is in mid flight. I played a 2e game that way and it was fun, though honestly rolling initiative every turn and dealing with weapon speeds was a pain. Of course, these problems are all solved by letting the computer do the work for you!

I think your suggestion of "if an enemy is killed before all actions used, game pauses and asks for me to pick another target" would be more user-friendly but honestly would take out a lot of the fun/tactics of such a system. Such a system is supposed to embody the chaos of battle, where sometimes you go to do something but it's rendered irrelevant by the time you get there. This suggestion would move it much closer to the standard RtwP, although this is not necessarily bad...

Yeah, I just always thought such a system might work real well especially in a video game. I agree that chaos of battle might mean you fire an arrow at a target and then they die before you hit. That's true. Besides this, the pause thing would slow the combat down anyway. Probably better just to let it go.

As for initiative every round and weapon speeds, you wouldn't even need that with what Im suggesting. Everyone picks their moves and the game has all characters move at once.

So let's say Lae'zel selected the Gobbo Berserker with melee but Gobbo berserker picks my main who picks the Captain. Captain chooses my main with a bow. Initiative order for the combat was rolled and order is Lae'zel, Berserker, Main, Captain.

When round plays out, all combatants move. Lae'zel intercepts Berserker on his way to my main within 3 seconds. She has higher initiative and swings. Berserker continues after main.
Lae'zel follows and gets Attack of Opportunity because he's continuing after my main without Disengaging. Berserker reaches main just as main reaches Captain. Berserker has higher initiative. Berserker swings before main. Main has higher initiative than Captain, so main reaches Captain and swings and puts up Shield of Faith. Captain was too slow to get a shot off before main got to him, so now he fires at my main when my main is point blank. Sucks to be him. Now it's harder to hit.

Next round, same initiative order. Captain uses disengage to escape. Berserker attacks Lae'zel. Main attacks Captain. Lae'zel attacks Berserker. Round plays out. Captain immediately starts to run away causing main to pursue. Lae'zel swings first but misses. Berserker gets AOO on main. If Lae'zel had killed him he would not have gotten AOO because she had higher initiative. Captain continues to flee with main in pursuit. Berserker turns and swings back at Lae'zel. Main swings at captain as they come to the end of their move distance.

It might be tricky for the PC to calculate how all this would work, but I think it could be done and could be fun. Would speed up combat too but give players more control than RTWP and would cut out the need to spam Pause during combat constantly.

5e first off is completely different from 2nd edition and 3.5/pathfinder which is like 3.75 both of which are based on 3rd addition rules. One of the big major difference that affects earlier additions and 5e is the reaction system as reactions occur differently in 5e than prior games and are a drastic impact on combat. Additionally with NWN you were controlling 1 character not 4+.

So your compairing a game where your controlling 1 character with a game where you are controlling 4 characters. You go back to 2nd edition reactions were not even a part of the combat system.

Additionally the way actions are taken in earlier editions of the game are completely different than how they are taken in 5e. As well as the mechanics of elevation on combat. First off your not taking a single action your taking action(s)/bonus actions based on class so not focusing on a complete functional turn based system first would obsolete that fact and there is no way to properly incoperate reactions into real time with pause. Because your reaction is not restricted to an attack of opportunity like it was in earlier additions classes using shields / spells can take reactions that differ from just an attack of opportunity. Such as Shield mastery allowing you to protect an adjectient ally following certain enemies turns ending in combat. Proper use of aoe vs real time with pause and being able to group characters vs having characters in different positions performing secondary actions is a limitation that is present in real time with pause vs turn based combat and is evident as alot of the pathfinder wotr players have demonstrated on multiple occasions having issues properly spacing characters actively in combat. Where there are players who can manage that to an extent the largest difference still comes in the form of reactions. 5e is very heavily reaction driven in proper combat sequences.

Additionally your seperating bonus action from primary action. Bonus actions are not limited to attacks with melee weapons they are also optioned with secondary spell casting which doesnt exist in pathfinder and 3.5 because every spell is part of the same sequence of actions so you could preset cast spell A in combat vs cast spell A then cast spell B should circumstance a b or d happen but not c because that system doesnt currnetly exist while I am sure there is potential for them to code it you would be looking at completely revamping the entire system and adding 1-2 years of code to the games release as your have to program a multi-senerio response. Older editions of DND did not have this.

Additionally again your reaction may need to be changed based on circumstances in combat again and this doesnt occur on your turn however you can respond to enemy actions taking use of this change in your reaction. This cant currently happen in real time with pause. There by limiting how you can respond and take actions in combat. Additionally drinking a potion does not take part of your action in pathfinder kingmaker / WOTR. Nor does it impact you significantly in other versions of the game where drinking a potion in 5e is part of a bonus action even if done from your inventory it still affects you in combat. Like wise with food.

There were feats as well in 3.5 / 5e that allowed weapon swapping to be done as a free action this doesnt exist in 5e and still has to be corrected as it is with the live release. As swapping weapons / Changing what your using in combat is considered an action in 5e. Much like im sure the correction to wizard spell casting still will be corrected with release as they finish more of the spells as again this is a core part of 5e which was the original design concept to the game to make it as accurate as possible. Not to say that a real time with pause options should not be available down the road to those who want it but larian has stated there focus is to get the turn based combat system correct and to make it as accurate to 5e rules as possible with minor exceptions for abilities like favored enemy and Favored terrain which do not translate overwell. Those mechanics do not particularly work well on the table top version either without the dm focusing very specifically in a way that can be beneficial to the class. Which is a limitation with a video game and its a poor element to begin with of the class. Real time with pause should completely and utterly be looked at as a secondary feature to add after the games full release when they have time to attempt to properly impliment it into the game. Much like turn based mechanics were adapted in king maker long after the inital release when they had time to properly code it your talking a feature that took longer than a year from the live release of the game.

And again the combat system I am not sure you could even properly code reactions even with that in mind. Not to mention the resources again it would take to control the actions /reactions / split actions of NPCs would be alot higher so you would be looking at double triple maybe even 5/6 times the resources being used during combat in order to maintain the combat fluidness with larger numbers of enemies in combat. The Graphics / Resource engine for bg 3 is much higher than it is in pathfinder or older systems and combat is alot more complexe in alot of ways. There are alot of differences in the combat system coming from someone whos played the systems since 1st edition the differences are very significant.

Short throwing alot of the rules out the window it just does not play the same way. At which point they already said that would not happen way way before the game was even announced. So you can forget that happening...real time with pause your pretty much best case if they decide to add it expect it to come in over a year after the full game release as the amount of code rework required would push the game back at least a year if not 2-3. So yeah... Not to mention it would probably come as an optional DLC due to the weight it would put on a system attempting to run those variables with higher system requirements. At which point 70% of the people asking for that wont be able to handle the system requirements to begin with.

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Long and short of every thing above 5e combat functions completely different than older additions and there but the adaptation requirements would be completely different. You can argue pathfinder does it all you want the combat system is completely different.

Saying that a game can only be either tactical TB or hack and slash is just plain false. A game can absolutely be tactical and RTwP. You are simply speaking from your personal preference for TB, which is fine. But just because RTwP doesn't work for you as a tactical system, that does not mean it is not tactical in some absolute sense. For me, RTwP games like the IE, NwN, Dragon Age, PoE, and Pathfinder games are very much tactical, and I play them tactically. So please don't try to make out your personal preference to be some sort of universal truth.

Im not. I even said I have now problem with them making it and optional system. Im just saying don't take away my TB to so so. The whole reason I love this game is it is TB, and there aren't enough TB games out there. I AM just speaking from my own personal experience, naturally. I absolutely abhor RTWP because, IMO, I think you can't take full advantage of all the abilities your characters have.

I just honestly don't see the appeal. Why do you all love spamming the pause all the time? How is that better? How do you not wind up with the same issues I always have with party members acting like idiots doing their own things instead of working well as a team?

Anyway, I even said I thought RTWP was possible for BG3. Do I want it. No, but it is possible. You can adapt 5e rules to fit. I would just not play BG3 anymore if they replaced TB with RTWP. The RTWP frustrates me just that much. They would turn my love for the game into hate real quick.

I wasn't talking about your personal preference for TB. In that part of what you previously said, which I quoted in my post, you clearly equate RTwP with hack and slash. You were effectively saying:
TB = tactical
RTwP = hack and slash

This is what I was calling out as being b.s.

Oh whatever, Man. It's my personal experience. In order to be tactical at all with RTWP I had to spam Pause constantly. So I find that with that system, I was pausing every 2 second to make sure my characters weren't doing something stupid. So, to me, RTWP is more hack and slash.

So, to me, TB = Tactical. I can check all my options, think about my moves, I have full control over each character and Im not relying on some computer script to control my characters. I get to see every spell cast. I can see who hits and who doesn't. I can see what attacks are working and what aren't. And Im not pausing every 2 second. Much less chaotic.

RTWP is hard to be strategic for ME anyway, because in order to see if someone is wasting their attacks and they aren't working, I have to Pause, read the combat dialogue, scroll through a lot of entries, find the specific attack and see, "My weapon has no effect." It takes MORE time to do this than TB.

I cant tell you how many times playing BG2 that I discovered Jaheira was pointlessly attacking some enemy and having no effect. I would hear her say it, and check the log to discover that for like 10 seconds now she was wasting her attacks. The weapon had no effect and I didn't catch it right away because too much is happening all at once.

So, again, all posts are of course from my experience. All Im saying is, Don't take away my TB.

For RtwP games, I'd like to see more Tactics systems that DAO had. Being able to customize companion behavior to that degree really helped limit the amount of in-combat micromanaging I had to to.

This type of system would require a lot of adjustment since D&D has #/rest abilities and an action+bonus action per turn instead of DAO's cooldown abilities and a single action per round, but I think it still could be done.

The reason it works so well for DAO, is the fact that Bioware created their combat and skill system from the ground up, for RTwP.

Translating tabletop DnD rules of any edition just doesn't work well since in every version, there are mechanics that rely on a TB system to be implemented properly.

Yup creating a system specifically for RtwP definitely helped. But it's not impossible to create such a system for D&D, depending on the how strictly you care about the implementation. The RtwP systems work pretty well for P:Km and BG1&2 (though I greatly prefer P:Km's TB).

The biggest problem with implementing RtwP for 5e is probably reactions but tactics would address this: giving a priority and conditions for casting Shield, making an AoO, hellish rebuking, imposing disadvantage via Protection fighting style, etc. Actually, it'd be great if BG3 had such a system for reactions instead of toggle.

For 5e RAW, bonus actions are fairly rare which would help simplify the tactics. Having 10 tactics slots for each character-especially martial characters-would probably be sufficient to cover most fights. Pathfinder might be more difficult because you have swift actions, move-equivalent actions, and standard vs full round actions.

I guess one reason I mentioned hack/slash games is that Larian has said from the beginning that this was a TB game. Trying to turn it into an RTWP game at this point is like turning a hack/slash game like Skyrim and turn it into TB.

You knew going into it that it was TB. I'm not upset about suggesting an option for RTWP, but please don't get upset if they don't.

Out here, we keep suggesting they add more and more Options in settings so everyone can play the game the way they want. That's fine and all. Im not saying don't suggest. I'm just saying don't get all cranky if they don't.

RTWP would be a huge overhaul too mechanics, it seems, so I would think it is something that would require a ton more work and space on my computer to do, and Im never going to use it. So yeah, I don't want them to do it even as an option. I'd rather more content.

So Im sorry of I'm unfriendly about it, but it does affect me a lot if they even decide to make it and option. It just means MORE space on my hard drive and they will take even more time to release more content.

Hack and Slash is a completely different Genera from real time with pause i will agree with kanisatha on that it is not the same genera. Most MMO games are hack and slash mechanics or games like Dragon Age Inquisition.

Real time with pause is in alot of ways similar to turn based in that your basically removing the turn to turn controls for the fight. You are presetting your actions and pausing to change them.

I dont agree that it is adapted well in most cases to over right turn based games however its just taking away alot of the stream line elements of turnbased to make combat smoother in order to take turns faster. Total War: Warhammer 2 does this well but the game was also built with the core principle of this in mind.

Having seen combat in both real time with pause and Turn based for pathfinder: WOTR i do think the turn based combat is better done than the real time with pause though its functional having watched both versions streamed I personally felt like the real time with pause was lack luster if you actually enjoy the combat aspect of the game at all it looks / Feels like you lose something watching it in real time with pause the only stream of it I have been able to stomach is streamed in turn based mode and I felt was much better done.

When a game is designed to run in a real time with pause mode it can be better but I feel like the adaptation of a real time with pause to a multicharacter game leaves something to be desired your streamlining the actual combat / mechanics of the game basically taking away from the actual game play and tactical elements just to plow through the story or in an attempt to make it more hack and slash esq while its not really hack and slash in the case of doing this instead of keeping the turnbased elements takes away from the gameplay itself the reason people want to play turn based games at there core.

Xcom for example if you took away the turn based elements I probably would not play it similar with Necromunda, and I probably would not have bothered at all to buy balders gate 3 if it wasnt turn based. Its the entire reason I took interest in it. Solasta while it had me interested and they are doing good things the lack of character classes / Core elements pushed me off getting the game. The elements they do have are great the simple fact they said hey we will only have 7/12 classes undersold me. However if they had 12/12 classes i would be just as interested in playing both. Though I do think balders gates character design and elements are superior they still need more character customization and turnbased play rank in the biggest pluses to to the game. Cinamatics are nice but come as a seconadary to me. But im sure they do matter more to other people.

Turn Based vs real time with pause while I see no problem with them implimenting them as an optional downloadable patch for people after live re-lease. I personally would not play the game if it was only real time with pause at all I would have never bought it at all and until the full turn based system is finished real time with pause should not be considered. I am personally glad larion has chosen to go that route sticking to there guns instead of just caving because some people would perfer real time with pause.

Not that I do not think hey that element shouldnt be an OPTIONAL download down the road if you want to download it as a secondary DLC package but I would not want to be forced to have it installed chewing up additional resources potentially impacting some peoples options to play the game as it would effect minimum system requirements to run smoothly. It was advertised as a turn based game based on a turn based game. Turn based comes first if you dont like it IMO you should be looking for game designed for real time with pause instead of a game that was advertised as turn based adaptation of turn based mechanics plain and simple. If you want real time with pause saying it would be a cool edition to the game is good. But also in the understanding that you are probably going to be waiting well over a year for them to look at implimenting a real time with pause option if at all. Which I would not cross my fingers based on the interview where they stated they had no intentions of implimenting a real time with pause system.

I would still hope they offer it to you as an option however not until after the core game has been released and again I would be expecting to wait at least a year to see it. I dont think it would be a good idea however unless it was optional DLC content. Due to resources.

@GM4him it would be an ok option if it was optional DLC for people who do perfer it done as a seperate DLC content package option it would not effect resources as long as they did it purely optional.

I feel like I start a lot of posts this way...lol...

My point isn't that RTWP is hack/slash, guys. My point is that RTWP and TB are like 2 different genres of game. So expecting a person to make a TB game into an RTWP game is LIKE expecting someone to turn a hack/slash into TB.

So let's put it another way. It's like turning a FPS into just a hack/slash. The types are similar but the entire game needs to be revamped to make it work well.

Again, I don't mind an option to do RTWP as long as it doesn't bloat the game so that it takes a ton more room in my hard drive and as long as they do it later after other content.

Yup, this is how I see it. I like D&D well enough, mainly because it has been around for a very long time and it is what introduced me to the genre of RPG games. But I am not wedded to D&D rules and mechanics in the least bit (Dragon Age and PoE mechanics are both WAY superior to D&D for me), and so if a developer were to create a game that is "based on D&D rules," it is perfectly reasonable from my standpoint for them to also say: Hey, we want to use RTwP in our game, and as such we are going to be changing or leaving out anything in D&D rules that cannot be implemented well in RTwP. Not saying this for BG3; just making a general point.

But, again, RTWP is like a whole different game system mechanic and style of gameplay. To implement that would be a hefty change and lots of time, coding, and bloat the size of an already huge game.

I get maybe having it be a DLC maybe it some point down the line, but I really hope they don't spend time and money and such on it right now. Complete the game with TB first. Give us our races and such. Then maybe do RTWP as a DLC. Maybe.

Yeah I much prefer TB over RTWP as well, although I wouldn't mind if they cranked up the battle speed a little bit during the turns. But that seems to have improved a little over the patches, so I guess they are tweaking it. I am sure someone will mod RTWP anyways.

Dude. It is already TB. It is not RTWP. To change it to RTWP at this point is to completely overhaul the game. Besides that, it will upset a lot of players. Myself included. Again, you will literally turn a rather addicted player and customer into one who hates the game and throws it out the window forever if you make it RTWP and take away TB.

And again, this game is huge already. To expect them to now revamp the entire combat system and make it RTWP is like taking Skyrim and making it Turn Based. You can't expect them to do that, AND it will make the game even bigger if they make it an Option for players to do RTWP.

The two gameplay styles are totally different. The rules are different. To go to RTWP at this point you have to assign each type of weapon and action a certain second count. You'd have to make it so that you tell all characters what to do, and they'd have to remember what you tell them so that once you unpause they do what you tell them. You have to revamp the AI. You have to write a ton of scripts so that each character can be assigned different scripts that a player can then assign those characters. There is SO much that goes into RTWP.

Again, doing this change is like taking a FPS and turning into a Turn Based Game. It's a completely different gameplay design and mechanics. Can it be done? Yes. But at this point it is like you are asking them to switch the entire game from one thing to another with the flip of a switch.

I'm sorry if I seem upset, but it just seems rude to me to come into a particular game and say, "You need to revamp the entire game mechanics and gameplay because I don't like it and because the game's predecessors were something else." Do people do this for other games? Did the creators of Neverwinter Nights 2 get hounded and such to make it Turn Based? Did the creators of Xcom get people contacting them and demand that they turn it into RTWP? Maybe I'm just not familiar with people giving their feedback on games like this. Maybe they do that. I just think it's crazy that you guys are all out here telling Larian that they need to make BG3 RTWP when they've clearly communicated TB from the beginning and it's already built as TB.

Again, if they do this as a DLC and it doesn't affect me, then never mind and I don't care. But don't be taking away my Turn Based Baldur's Gate 3 and replace it with RTWP when from the very beginning they told everyone that it was a TB game. Again, you all knew going into it that it would be TB. It's all over the place that this game was TB. If you don't like TB, why would you even buy the game?

I will fight you tooth and nail to keep it. I'll start a petition to keep TB. I'll call up Swen myself if I have to and beg him on hands and knees to keep it. lol. Don't take away my TB. I have very few precious games like it already, and I've been wanting a TB D&D game for over 20 years.