Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Phase spider matriarch is dumb

How’s that I am wrong? I did two fights in a row and she did use webs all the times! Even after falling down! It’s like if she using them is hardcoded into the game to give a player an opportunity to exploit this mechanic.

Party of 4 = Diadell the Wood Elf Rogue, Drogyn the Half-Orc Barbarian, Lynari the Drow Wizard and Vel the Half-Elf Druid. They are even Level 5 characters.

They enter the well and begin to explore. First battle begins. 2 Ettercaps and 2 Phase Spiders.

Initiative is rolled. Order is Diadell, Ettercap 1, Lynari, Vel, Ettercap 2, Phase Spider 1, Phase Spider 2, Drogyn

Diadell chooses to dart 30 feet and takes cover. She then fires at Ettercap 1. She rolls a 10 with her shortbow and gets a +6 to hit. Ettercap has 13 AC. Hit. Diadell rolls 1d6+3 damage. She does not get to use Sneak Attack because she neither has advantage against the ettercap nor does she have an ally within 5 feet of it. She rolls a 2 and takes 5 HP off total.

Ettercap 1 moves 30 feet towards PCs, now putting it within 30 feet of them. It fires a web at Drogyn. It gets a +4 to hit. It rolls a 9 + 4 = 13. Drogyn's AC is 18. Miss.

Lynari's turn. She has 2 level 3 spell slots, 3 level 2 spell slots and 4 level 1 spell slots. She decides to use her Level 2 spell Dragon's Breath. She chooses fire breath. This is a bonus action. Then she runs up to the Ettercap 1, positions herself so that she can hit a bunch of webbing as well within the 15 foot cone that her dragon breath makes, and then she uses her action to blast her fire breath at her targets. She rolls 3d6 damage. The Ettercap rolls to see if it can take half damage. It uses a Dexterity Savings throw against Lynari's Spell Save DC of 14. Her damage roll is 11. The Ettercap 1 rolls 9 + 2 = 11. Failure. It takes full damage and a bunch of webs are on fire. Ettercap 1 now has lost 16 HP total. It only has 44 total HP to begin with, so now it is reduced to 28 HP.

Vel is next. He has 2 level 3 spells, 3 level 2 and 4 level 1. He runs up next to Lynari and uses Moonbeam, a Level 2 spell. He directs the beam so that it is a shaft of silvery light that shines down in a 5 foot radius and extends all the way to the ceiling of the cave some 40 feet above. It descends right down on top of Ettercap 1, blocking any pathway to the PCs so that all enemies must come through the moonlight to get to the PCs. Ettercap 1 has to make a Constitution Savings throw against Vel's Spell Save DC of 13. It rolls a 12 + 1. It succeeds. Vel does 2d10 damage to it, but it is halved because of the successful savings throw. Vel rolls 8 so takes only 4 off the creature. It now has 24 HP left. Vel keeps the beam up using concentration.

Ettercap 2 moves, using a Dash action to go 60 feet. It cannot do any other actions because Dash is an Action. It has now moved into range, coming close to the moonbeam but not going in it.

Phase Spider 1 uses a bonus action to do an Ethereal jaunt. It magically shifts from the Material Plain to the Ethereal Plain. So, in this round, it simply disappears. Phase Spider 2 does the same. They don't just phase into the Ethereal Plain and then back into the Material Plain in the same turn, teleporting across the board right on top of you all in one turn. It takes 2 turns to do this.

Now it is Drogyn's turn. He rushes up to Ettercap 1 and attacks using his Greatsword. He rolls an 8. He gets a +8 to hit. He gets 2 attacks per round because he is a level 5 Barbarian. So he hits with a 16. He rolls 2d6+5 damage. He rolls a 9+5=14. The Ettercap is now reduced to 10 HP. He rolls a second time to hit and gets a natural 20. He rolls 4d6+5 damage. But wait! He has Savage Attacks because he's a Barbarian. When he scores a critical hit with a melee weapon, he gets to roll one of the weapon's damage dice one additional time and add it to the extra damage of the critical hit. So that means he actually gets 5d6+5 damage. He rolls a total of 22 damage off. Ettercap 1 is dead.

Next round. Diadell can now use Sneak Attack because her companions are within 5 feet of Ettercap 2, just on the other side of the moonbeam. She rolls a 7+6=13. Hit. She does 1d6+3 for her bow, but as a level 5 rogue she also gets 3d6 extra damage for Sneak Attack. That's a total of 4d6+3 damage. She rolls an 18+3=21. Ettercap 2 is now reduced to 23 HP.

Lynari's turn. She moves into position and launches her fire breath. It has a duration of 1 minute, and only 1 round has gone by (which is 6 seconds). So it is still active. She hits Ettercap 2 and deals 3d6 damage. It rolls a savings throw and succeeds. She rolls 10 damage which is reduced to 5 because the Ettercap made the savings throw. It now has 18 HP.

Vel's turn. He uses his Action to move the beam. He can move it up to 60 feet in any direction. He puts it on the Ettercap. He rolls 2d10 damage and gets a total of 8. The Ettercap rolls a 19 for savings throw, so he only loses 4 HP. It has 14 HP left.

Ettercap 2 goes. It's really mad now. It has Multiattack so it can attack once with its bite and once with its claws. It goes right for Lynari. It gets a +4 to hit and rolls a 9 and 18 for totals of 13 and 22. Her AC is only 12. Hit twice. Bite does 1d8+2 damage and Claw does 2d4+2 damage. It rolls a 3+2=5 and 6+2=8 for a total of 13 HP off. Lynari had 22 HP to start with, so she now only has 9 HP.

Phase Spider 1 is next. It uses Ethereal Jaunt to appear right next to Drogyn. That was a bonus action. It rolls a 15+4=19 to hit. It hits Drogyn. It does 1d10+2 damage. Drogyn must also make a Constitution savings throw of 11 or higher to avoid taking a full 4d8 poison damage as well. He rolls a 12+3=15. He takes half damage from it. So the creature rolls an 8+2=10 damage for its normal damage and 20 for poison which is then reduced to 10 because he made the roll. Drogyn has 48 HP to begin with, so now he only has 28 HP.

Phase Spider 2 joins Phase Spider 1, teaming up on Drogyn. It rolls a Natural 20. It deals 2d10+2 points of damage. Drogyn makes his savings throw so he takes half damage from the poison. The spider rolls a 2+2=4 damage and with the 4d8 roll he gets 16 which is reduced to 8. Drogyn is now reduced to 16 HP.

Drogyn's turn. He attacks Phase Spider 1. He rolls a 15+8=23 to hit. (Oh yeah. He has a Greatsword +1, by the way.) Phase Spider AC is 13, so he hits. He rolls 2d6+5 damage and gets a total of 13. Phase Spiders have 32 HP, so Phase Spider 1 only has 19 HP left. He attacks again, because he gets 2 attacks, and he rolls a 7+8=15 to hit. He hits and rolls 2d6+5 damage, getting a 14. Phase Spider 1 has 5 HP left.

Round 3. Diadell's turn again. She stows her bow and runs up on Phase Spider 2 using her two short swords. She has a Frostbrand Shortsword and a Shortsword of Wounding. She gets Sneak Attack this round because Drogyn is within 5 feet of the enemy. She rolls a 12 and a 9 to hit. Her bonus to hit is +6, so she hits both times. For her Frostbrand Shortsword, she gets 2d6+3 (an additional 1d6 cold damage) and for her Shortsword of Wounding she gets 1d6 (she does not add +3 because it is her off hand weapon.) She is using Sneak Attack for her Shortsword of Wounding so that she deals 2d6+3 damage with her Frostbrand Shortsword and 4d6 damage with her Shortsword of Wounding. She rolls a 7+3=10 and a 15 for a total of 25 HP off the Phase Spider. Phase Spider 2 now only has 8 HP.

Lynari's turn. She still has her breath weapon and blasts the Ettercap with it. She rolls an 8 for damage off of it. It rolls and fails its savings throw. It loses 8 HP. It had 14 HP left, so now it only has 6 HP.

Vel moves his moonbeam again. It deals 2d10 damage and the creature fails the save. He rolls a 9. Ettercap 2 is now dead.

Phase Spider 1 attacks Drogyn. It rolls a 13+4=17. A miss. It then uses Ethereal Jaunt to shift into the Ethereal Plain to escape. Phase Spider 2 attacks Diadell and rolls a 13+4=17. Diadell has 16 AC, so it hits. It rolls 1d10+2 damage and gets a total of 7 off Diadell. She has 27 HP to begin with, so she's down to 20. Diadell rolls a Constitution Savings throw. She gets no bonus and rolls a 10. She fails. Spider does 4d8 additional poison damage to her. It rolls an 18. Diadell now has 2 HP remaining. It then phases just like Phase Spider 1.

Drogyn gets to go, but with no enemies around, he can do nothing but drink a potion and heal. He uses a Potion of Greater Healing which provides 4d4+4 HP back. He rolls a 12+4=16, so he now has a total of 32 HP.

Next Round. Diadell heals with a potion and gets back 14 HP for a total HP of 16. Remember, potions are Actions, so she can only use one healing item per round. That's all she gets back. Lynari also uses a healing potion and gets 10 HP back. She now has 19 HP. Vel readies an action. Phase Spider 1 returns to attack Drogyn. Vel has readied his action, though. He uses it now moving the moonbeam right on top of the phase spider. He deals 2d10 damage and rolls a 9. Phase Spider fails the savings throw. It's dead. Phase Spider 2 appears and attacks Diadell. It rolls a 19 and hits. It does 1d10+2 damage and takes off 6 total. Diadell rolls and fails her savings throw again and thus receives an additional 4d8 damage off. Phase Spider 2 rolls a 12. So Diadell loses 18 HP total this turn. She is now down and dying.

Drogyn's turn. He rushes the last Phase Spider to get revenge for his fallen Diadell. He rolls an 18 and 14 total to hit. He does 2d6+5 twice, once for each hit. He kills the Phase Spider and ends the combat. Vel immediately rushes over to Diadell and heals her using Cure wounds. She gains back 1d8+5 and he rolls a 4. So Diadell is restored 9 HP.

-- End of Battle 1 --

As you can see, even this first battle, which is not yet even the fight against the spider queen matriarch, was a tough one for 4 level 5 characters. Diadell was even knocked out at one point and dying. Vel used 1 Level 1 Spell Slot and 1 Level 2 Spell Slot. Lynari used only 1 level 2 Spell Slot. However, now they are weakened already and need to recover HP. If they are NOT able to take a long rest, that means that they will need to press on using potions and healing spells to recover lost HP to be ready for the next fight. They might also want to use a Short Rest, if the DM allows it, to recover some HP and maybe Lynari can recover her lost spell slot using Arcane Recovery. Either way, the point of me putting this here is that it illustrates that this was a very tough fight already, and we haven't even gotten to the queen. If Larian did the game rules the way they should be done, it would be plenty difficult to face the spider queen's lair.

If I have time, I might even let you know how the spider queen fight went for this team using the stats that I was suggesting - 64 HP with AC 16 and maybe I'll even give her multi-attack.

I just think it's stupid that she can down a PC in one hit. Of course that's why they also beefed up the "help" action. Someone is unconscious, poisoned and bleeding to death and you what...tap them on the shoulder and they're back in the fight with 1hp.

Basically, if you don't cheese and exploit the dumb AI and she gets in melee range, it's a party wipe. It doesn't matter what classes or abilities you have, as long as you can destroy some web.

She should just teleport in the middle of the party and kill everyone instead of bouncing around in webs, waiting to take massive fall damage. And how does she take three times more fall damage than anyone else? It's a complete gimmick setup. It's her lair, the environment should work in her favor.

Are we supposed to feel accomplished when we discover that she exposes herself to massive fall damage twice? I don't. 5e and BG3 give you things like poison resistance, spells to debuff strong monsters and even a spear against spiders. I'd like to rely on these abilities and clever resource management while making my way through those caves instead of cheesing my way through boss fights.

+5000 @1varangian

I would say Dark Souls, Lords of the Fallen, or simmilar games ...
Those are quite good examples of bosses with certain mechanics that you HAVE TO learn, otherwise you are screwed.

Im sory, do you expect Swen to do snow us multiple loads and different tactics in every combat? O_o
Of course he used only one, that fight with Hag was only exhibition of Druid (not even good one, since dices kinda screwed him ) but that dont mean that there isnt any other.
Have you fighted Hag? Have you fighter her exactly the same as Swen did? And if not (and i believe you didnt) how can you say that it was the only way?

If you read those reactions, you have to see that multiple players are confriming here that they used multiple different approaches, from wich some was more effective and some less ... but in the end, everything was manageable. O_o
That alone kinda confrims that they all were perfectly able to go into a boss fight and utilize tactics that you no and have at your disposal to be able to win the fight.
So what exactly is point of your complaint right now?

1) You are able to fight your way through entire spider lair from start to finish without needing a long rest ...
- Regular Phase Spiders can be beaten without using spellslots ... either with Cantrips, or with Scrolls ...
- You can heal yourself with food, outside of combat ... and even if you dont, bcs you dont want to, there still are two Short Rests and quite strong healing once per short rest, if you have Life Cleric ...

2) You dont have to knock her off webs, multiple people allready confrimed this multiple times ... if you are unable to kill her without it, while everyone else is, maybe (once again) there is some other problem, dont you think?

3) You dont have to sneak around to kill the eggs, yes its usefull ... but certainly not possible, Burning hands, or single Cleave will do the charm aswell. And you can hit Matriarch with both, if you manage to position your party right.

4) This claim is something i wanna focus on for a while ...
"that is not the way D&D is supposed to be played."
I dont claim to be über experienced DnD player, i had only few dozen sessions with my friends wich all are almost half country away from me so we have quite some problems harmonize our times ... but i like the topic and listens many youtubers with theyr stories (I can certainly recommend "All things DnD", or "The Order of the Stick" webcomics) ...
And i never, litteraly never, heared about single good DM that would punish his group for inventing different approach to fight, or unortodox tactics if you wish.
Quite the oposite honestly. O_o

Lets look at it:
1) This seems perfectly fine to me ... managing your resources is cruicial part of DnD, and i never heared about even single party that used everything at their disposal for first mob they meet inside of dungeon ...
2) Same story here ... our Ranger in one session managed to save us from Duegar Slavers by collapsing the tunnel we were in ... it was risky move, but it worked. Using your surounding is part of DnD and i dont see any problem in it. O_o
3) Sneaking around to destroy the eggs ... have you even in DnD session heared rogue or ranger say "I shall scout ahead" ... it might be risky, but certainly possible.

So what exactly is "not the way D&D is supposed to be played." ?

You keep saying that ... and people keep telling you its not truth ...
Come on, this conversation will be a lot shorter if you actualy read responces. :-/

AND everything else you can think of ...
I dont quite know what are yours experience with DnD, as i said mine isnt much rich to be honest ... but i allways find the most fun in using my imagination, to be kinda forced to think ... and not just for puzzles, but for everything starting in conversations, ending with combat. O_o
Maybe its just our DM, that wants us to describe him everything we say, everything we do ... and if he find our effort to be insuficient, he simply raises dificiulty of that particular task.
(That works best in conversations ... you say "i shall roll intimidation" and you have to roll nat. 20 ... you say "i shall intimidate them with: "Look mate, i have really powerfull friends and if you want to mess with me, count that you are messing with them too." and sudently you can sucess with rolling 15-20 ... and if you remember mentioning any specific names that was mentioned in session, or remembered any titbits you could use in your advantage, you can theoreticly manage to have ensured sucess. And i honestly love it that way.)

Actualy even the wery existence of DM inspiration is proof that you actualy ARE suppose to approchach things in your characters way ... that you ARE suppose to think ... that you are not suppose just roll the dices and calculate outcomes like a machine. :-/

And once aggain ... you dont.

Exactly.

Wich is curently impossible sadly ...
When i tried last time to engage combat with that spider that is patroling lower parts of Lair he just healed himself to full ... over, and over, and over, and over. -_-
This mechanic is something i honestly hate, ok let them heal themself when engaged, w/e ... but shouldnt they logicaly go look for some intruder instead of turn around and keep their boring routine? That is just stupid. :-/

Then you would expect wrong. :-/
Just look at this: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Giant_Spider_Matriarch_(5e_Creature)
Its not even Phase spider ... compare theese: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Giant_Spider ... and https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/5e_SRD:Phase_Spider ... its quite clear that Phase Spiders ARE suppose to be stronger than regular Giant Spiders.

Prepared, buffed and corectly equipped level 4 character, with full HP? Nah, not even chance ... unless you would be extremely unlucky.
With every single thing missing (low hp, low AC since you dont have proper armor /note that Metal Helmet is protecting you from crittical strikes for example/, or shield if possible, missing Bless and Aid, etc. etc.), her chances are incerasing drasticaly ... that is true, but that is once again not misstake of that spider.

Eh ... no, Nyloth told you that s/he (sory still not quite sure, no offence i hope :-/) had to reload when s/he was first time in this fight and didnt yet know the game much.

Do you remember first life gameplay presentation? Swen was wiped out by those three Intellect devourers at beach.

//edit:
You somehow managed to get Half-Orc, Barbarian and level 5 ... even tho nothing of it was implemented yet.
And you expect us to take this, as you like to say "homebrewed" example as proof? O_o

Can you provide more information?
Im honestly curious, since it never happened to me. O_o

Are you even sure she can? I mean, what is range of her teleport?

I believe there will be some connection to fact that she is three times more heavy than anyone else.

This is actualy good point ...
Except she kinda did what spiders usualy do ... covered it all around with webs so she can easily move from single place to another. O_o
Cant quite imagine a spider to reduce high of surrounding pillars.
Also i believe no spider matriarch counts with group of heroes that will burning everything they see.

You mean that spear you get from Owlbear and that Dwarf?
Sadly that bonus damage dont work on spiders ... i presume its a bug, but someone allready reported around here its bonus damage is working for Spectator/Beholder only in EA.

And the best part is that you CAN! Isnt it fun? :P

I think you're talking about mechanics of "pushing", it's different. But I agree with you, "pushing" mechanics arise too often. Because wherever you have a difficult fight, there is an "abyss". At least that was in fight with hag, spider, and minotaurs. This mechanic won't work with beholder and bulet. And you can also fail push, and then game will punish you like it was on Larian stream.

I don't think this will be changed, even if the design of these locations implied ability to push enemy.

But you still have options, Larian doesn't take that away from you, that's what I'm talking about.

Yes, of course she can. In melee she’ll tear yourself up pretty damn quickly. Spitting acid and begging for fireball staying on a web is actually sparing you from being annihilated instantly.

When she’s in range of spitting attack, it’s a one turn. She can attack immediately after teleporting.

Why doesn’t she do it? Well, it’s obvious — she’s a cautious creature.
The problem is AI is sticking to the initial pattern and that is wrong. Make her rage after falling down. She’s learned this food isn’t to be taken lightly, she understands they have ranged weapon, and what is most important she understands now she shouldn’t be staying on a web. So basically you get something like a price for using this cheese.

It kinda does by optimizing fights around these mechanics. And these mechanics are pretty simple which inflates monster’s and your party’s stats.

Options to struggle on this combat during 4h ?
Option to OS the boss rather than 2 or 3 shots him ?
Option to use the win buttons because finally it's too complicated if I don't ?

Balancing / optimizing combats arround all these mechanics whatever we're talking about fall damage with push, fall damage with webs, fall damages with thunderwave, easy advantages, dipping, free disengage and so on DRASTICALLY reduce our options.

Using Larian's OP mechanics or struggle for hours is not what I call "options".

1) Starting point : creation of OP mechanics for the player (fall damages / push is one of them)
2) Consequence : combats are too easy if you use the cheese
3) Solution : creation of OP mechanics or stats for monsters (rage, multi attack, minotaurs jump, consummables,...)
4) Consequences : use the cheeses or it's gonna be very hard/impossible. How many players complained about the game's difficulty...?
4.1) Unexpected consequence : cheeses are SO OP that we finally don't need any lone wolf mode... Maybe the game should be harder ?

BG3 won't ever be better balanced if they don't rework the starting point. Every combats (and it's even more obvious for harder/unfair/frustrating encounters) is the results of design choices that leads to changes that leads to more changes,...

To the point that I 100% disagree with you : we don't have any options other than playing how devs wants us to play. Sad in a tactical TB game based on D&D.

You know, when i asked for more information ...
I meaned by that to get some information that i didnt heared allready, i was not asking for double repeating the same.

Right know it looks like:
She killed me instantly. > Can you provide more info? > Yes, she killed her instantly ... and if she didnt stay on web, she would kill her instantly.

How is this suppose to help? o_O

What?
I mean my english is obviously bad, but ... what?
Range of teleportation spell is suppose to be somehow depending on if mob is able to attack after use that teleportation? O_o

Or she simply cannot teleport futher ... since she is (for example) 30y from you ... but her teleport have only 20y range ...
What would she do? Teleport as far as she can.

And this is where you are wrong ...
It is not impossible.
Hard? Yes.
Very hard? That kinda depends on definition.

And how many players complained?
Here on forum, around 10 i would say ... but the same over, and over, and over, and over ... in countless topics, so it may seem like a lot more.

I would also question the need or benefit of giving every enemy every kind of ability and in doing so changing their behavior.

Phase spiders are ethereal predators who phase next to you and kill you with a powerful poison. Why are they now changed from scary killers into annoying elusive spitters who play floor is poison.

It would be much more tactically interesting and diverse if phase spiders would remain as they are in 5e, scary melee predators. The correct way to fight them would be to make a tight group where your fighters can protect your squishies from the teleporting enemies with their 5e abilities. Protection fighting style, anyone? Being tightly grouped would then open up other tactical weaknesses, like being cloudkilled or fireballed. But in Larians playbook only highly mobile combat and scattered positioning exists.

If a DM wants a spider that has poison bite, aoe poison spit, on death aoe poison surface, teleport and web, they can always make a new spider called Larian Spider who can do everything and more.

Giving the same monster every ability in the book just kills any character and flavor different kinds of spiders would otherwise have.

10 players complained about the game being too hard (or even too easy) ? Please...

Still waiting to see anyone playing this game without any mechanics that cheese the base materials.

"I do it without any cheese, I just turn arround my ennemy without triggering an AOO to have the advantage on my GWM fighter and to heal/shove/... with my bonus action at the same time"...

Not "10" ... "around 10" ... that would mean 5-15 ...
And since we are asking each other, please dont reply to anything, unless you actualy read what people said.

What did you expect to hear, her attack and damage stats? :b

She’s not teleporting not because she can’t. Why? Simply because she makes several ranged attacks either from one or different points, though she obviously could have reached you. Sorry don’t have any calculations in meters.

Ok. I gave you and example of a legit D&D 5e game session fighting the first batch of enemies in the lair. I showed hoe they COULD use D&D 5e mechanics and it would still be a challenging fight, and I didn't even get to the boss fight. I showed how the party needed to use items to heal just to survive, making items important. I showed how cheeses are not needed.

The point is that if they actually balance the game appropriately you shouldn't have to use Larian homebrew rules. The spider lair would be really hard WITH proper rules and very challenging, and balanced.

I am reading the other posts, and my point remains. Larian said you have to use homebrew to make 5e works, but you don't. The game is MORE fun if you use 5e because it is balanced. Im playing it with 5e in tabletop. It is WAY more enjoyable, and the players can actually succeed without save scumming.

GM, I am going to say this as kindly as I can, that big long post you did of a TT battle representing the spider battle, literally, means nothing. Your biggest issue is trying to compare a TT game, to a video game. I mean you can keep posting these examples (because obviously by the length, you enjoy it), but I mean c'mon, you can't actually think that how it works on table top somehow says "see Larian, I was right, your encounters are all wrong! BUSTED!"

Tell me, what part of my example would not work as a video game? What mechanics I posted would not be able to be implemented in BG3?

Did they? Well that sucks. Haven't done the battle since the Druid update. Been taking a break enjoying XCOM2.

Can’t stop loving the amount of argumentation presented here 😄