veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
|
I don't disagree with that in principle, I just believe there are other, more subtle, less intrusive ways than making you roll a three dice in a row, each progressively more difficult to pass than the last. It's exasperating and breaks immersion, especially when you see a giant dice in the way. Things like this need to be unobtrusive, and limited. For example it is wholly inappropriate, imo, to have to pass a speech check just to regail someone with your escape from the Mind Flayer ship, never mind have to pass three in a row. Something that determines the direction and potential outcome of the game should have it, yes but Larian's system is all too intrusive and all too common for its own good. I didn't propose getting rid of it, only asking that they scale things back. As for the giant dice, easy compromise. Allow us to turn it off in the settings. Oh absolutely! I've posted elsewhere with that very commentary. Larian's DMing, especially in conversations, is a cruel, combative, rail-road DM. They're the DM that shuts you down, and often has already decided in advance how they intend a conversation to go, and they're darn well going to make it go that way! There are multiple cases where you have the option of choosing one way, or another - choosing not to try the thing leads to an end point and outcome, trying to do the thing leads to a check. If you fail the check, you're just dumped back at the exact same outcome as though you'd never tried... if you succeed, you need to make another check. If you fail THAT check, you get dumped back at the same outcome as if you'd never tried, but if you succeed, you have to make a third check... if you fail THAT check, you get dumped back at the same outcome as though you'd never tried.. and only if you succeed all three checks in a row, do you move into the alternate outcome. This happens in more than one place, and it's the most rotten behaviour a DM can ever levy at a player, and is grounds for a serious discussion with your DM, and possibly leaving the table if they are going to keep doing it. It's terrible. It's the exact opposite of 'interesting/fun failure' that they wanted to advertise. The issue is that they haven't really understood the difference between progressive checks and successive checks... They give us successive checks, where any failure just kicks you out to the fail state as though you'd never tried at all. This is bad design. Progressive checks change the conversation tone, or alter the situation so that each failure or success influences how you get to the end of the conversation, but very few individual cases are absolute shout-outs Here's an example: You're trying to convince a guard to let you past, and no have him call the guards on you for being where you shouldn't be.
G1: "Hold up, I don't think you're supposed to be here, especially not with weapons. You need to leave."
Player Choices:
1) [Persuasion] "I know, we're not, but this is really important. People are in danger, and we have to get through quickly. There's no faster way. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please!"
2) [Intimidation] "That's right, but we've got to get through, and we're going to... if we have to go through you, we will. You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "It's okay, the Duke sent us! There's an emergency and we're specialists. We're on his direct orders. Look, there isn't time right now, take us in and sort it out later, once everyone is saved, okay, that's fine, but let us through now!"
4) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
5) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
Choice 1) [Success] G1: "Look, that might be so, but I can't let you through. Guarding this door is my job. I can't, sorry! [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 1) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 2) [Success] G1: "Th-that's as may be... b-but I can't let you through. Guarding this door is my job. Please go! [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 2) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 3) [Success] G1: "Okay, but I didn't get any word of it. Guarding this door is my job. Do you have, ah, a writ of passage, or a message from him maybe? [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 3) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
Second Stage Choices:
4 Choices; as before, but minus the one you already used, with slight line variation to indicate the conversation part you're coming out of.
1) [Persuasion] "Look, I know it's your job, but people are in danger, and we have to get through quickly. There's no faster way. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please!"
2) [Intimidation] "It's your job, but we've got to get through, and we're going to... if we have to go through you, we will. You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "You're doing your job, now let us do ours! The Duke sent us! There's an emergency and we're specialists. We're on his direct orders. Look, there isn't time right now, take us in and sort it out later, once everyone is saved, okay, that's fine, but let us through now!"
4) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
5) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
Choice 1) [Success] G1: "Look, that might be so, but I can't. I've got a family, this job is all we've got, I can't lose it! Please leave! [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 1) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 2) [Success] G1: "Th-that's as may be... b-but I can't! Please, I've got a family, and this job is all we've got! Please leave! [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 2) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 3) [Success] G1: "I'm just doing my job. I've got a family, this job is all we've got, I'm sure the Duke will understand me doing my duty as directed. Look, if you don't have a write, can you please leave. [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 3) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
Third Stage Choices:
3 Choices; as before but minus the two you've tried.
1) [Persuasion] "You've got a family - so do the people we're trying to save, through there. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please let us!"
2) [Intimidation] "You've got a family - you want to see them again? We're going through; think of your family - is this job really worth your life? You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "Yeah, you're a family woman, great. Honest, loyal, all that. Commendable. We're on orders from the Duke. There's an emergency and we're specialists. Arrest us, people die, and the Duke asks you later why you stopped us carrying out his orders... or let us through so we can save some lives, okay?"
4) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
5) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
Choice 1) [Success] G1: "Okay, alright, alright... Do what you can, and don't make me regret this! [Party is let through]
Choice 1) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 2) [Success] G1: "Okay! A-Alright! I can't stop you, please don't kill me! [Party is let through]
Choice 2) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 3) [Success] G1: "Okay, fine, you can pass, but I'm going to check this, and you'd better be on the level. Go on, and don't make me regret it. [Party is let through]
Choice 3) [Failure] G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
This is what Larian currently does with their multiple checks in dialogue - it's very disheartening and uninteresting, because it's virtually impossible to get any outcome other than the one they ultimately *want* you to get, and getting it gives the very same result as though you'd never even tried in the first place. The successive check is the tool of the DM who has already decided how the story is going to go, and doesn't really want to give his players much chance to subvert it - just the illusion of doing so... and will brow beat them with checks until they fail one, so that they can gleefully jump back to their predetermined failure path. You're trying to convince a guard to let you past, and no have him call the guards on you for being where you shouldn't be.
G1: "Hold up, I don't think you're supposed to be here, especially not with weapons. You need to leave."
Player Choices:
1) [Persuasion] "I know, we're not, but this is really important. People are in danger, and we have to get through quickly. There's no faster way. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please!"
2) [Intimidation] "That's right, but we've got to get through, and we're going to... if we have to go through you, we will. You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "It's okay, the Duke sent us! There's an emergency and we're specialists. We're on his direct orders. Look, there isn't time right now, take us in and sort it out later, once everyone is saved, okay, that's fine, but let us through now!"
4) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
5) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
Choice 1) [Success] G1: "Look, that might be so, but I can't let you through. Guarding this door is my job. I can't, sorry! [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 1) [Failure] (1 failure) G1: "Sure you are. Perfect cover story. Give me one good reason not to call the whole barracks on you right now." [Second Stage Choices Presented]
Choice 2) [Success] G1: "Th-that's as may be... b-but I can't let you through. Guarding this door is my job. Please go! [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 2) [Failure] (1 failure) G1: "Yeah, you think? Maybe, but there's a whole barracks of soldiers at the end of this rope, and you don't want that. So back off and let me do my job." [Second Stage Choices Presented]
Choice 3) [Success] G1: "Okay, but I didn't get any word of it. Guarding this door is my job. Do you have, ah, a writ of passage, or a message from him maybe? [Second Stage Choices presented]
Choice 3) [Failure] (1 failure) G1: "Yeah, and I'm the Duke's advisor, didn't you know? Nice try. Give me one good reason not to call the whole barracks on you right now." [Second Stage Choices Presented]
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
Second Stage Choices:
4 Choices; as before, but minus the one you already used, with variation to indicate the conversation part you're coming out of and its results.
1) [Persuasion] "Look, I know it's your job, but people are in danger, and we have to get through quickly. There's no faster way. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please!"
2) [Intimidation] "It's your job, but we've got to get through, and we're going to... if we have to go through you, we will. You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "You're doing your job, now let us do ours! The Duke sent us! There's an emergency and we're specialists. We're on his direct orders. Look, there isn't time right now, take us in and sort it out later, once everyone is saved, okay, that's fine, but let us through now!"
4) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
5) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
Choice 1) [Success] (1 Success 1 failure) G1: "Look, that might be so, but I can't. I've got a family, this job is all we've got, I can't lose it! Please leave! [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 1) [Success] (2 Successes) G1: "Okay, alright, alright... I believe you, just don't make me regret it! [Party is let through]
Choice 1) [Failure] (1 Success 1 failure) G1: "I don't know what your game, but I've got a job to do and a family to take care of. Please just leave." [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 1) [Failure] (2 Failures) G1: "I'm not buying it... Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 2) [Success] (1 Success 1 Failure) G1: "Th-that's as may be... b-but I can't! Please, I've got a family, and this job is all we've got! Please leave! [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 2) [Success] (2 Successes) G1: "Okay! A-Alright! you've made your point! I can't stop you, please don't cause any trouble! [Party is let through]
Choice 2) [Failure] (1 Success 1 Failure) G1: "Don't go starting anything. I've got family here, and keeping them safe is my job. You can't pass. [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 2) [Failure] (2 Failures) G1: "Y-you don't scare me! Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 3) [Success] (1 Success 1 Failure) G1: "I'm just doing my job. I've got a family, this job is all we've got, I'm sure the Duke will understand me doing my duty as directed. Look, if you don't have a write, can you please leave. [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 3) [Success (2 Successes) G1: "Okay, fine, you can pass, but I'm going to check this, and you'd better be on the level. Go on, and don't make me regret it. [Party is let through]
Choice 3) [Failure] (1 Success 1 Failure) G1: "Yeah, and if you actually had an official writ, you'd have show it to me first. Look, I've got a job to do and a family to feed, so can you please just leave. I won't tell you again. [Third Stage Choices presented]
Choice 3) [Failure] (2 Failures) G1: "Right, the Duke... Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders! [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
Third Stage Choices:
3 Choices; as before but minus the two you've used.
1) [Persuasion] "You've got a family - so do the people we're trying to save, through there. We're not intending any harm, we're trying to save people! Please let us!"
2) [Intimidation] "You've got a family - you want to see them again? We're going through; think of your family - is this job really worth your life? You're the only one here, so if you fight, you'll be dead before your back-up arrives. Let us through."
3) [Deception] "Yeah, you're a family woman, great. Honest, loyal, all that. Commendable. We're on orders from the Duke. There's an emergency and we're specialists. Arrest us, people die, and the Duke asks you later why you stopped us carrying out his orders... or let us through so we can save some lives, okay?"
4) Right, sorry, I guess I'll go.
5) [Draw weapon] Damnit, another delay...
Choice 1) [Success] (2 Successes 1 Failure) G1: "Okay, alright, alright... I'm not sure I believe you, so you'd better not make me regret this. Go on, do what you can. [Party is let through]
Choice 1) [Failure] (1 success 2 Failures) G1: "I'm not buying your tricks. You're trouble, is what you are. Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 2) [Success] (2 Successes 1 Failure) G1: "Okay! A-Alright! I can't stop you, just please don't cause trouble!" [Party is let through]
Choice 2) [Failure] (1 success 2 Failures) G1: "You're going to take on the whole guard too? Your funerals... Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 3) [Success] (2 Successes 1 Failure) G1: "Okay, fine, you can pass, but I'm going to check this, and you'd better be on the level. Go on, and don't make me regret it. [Party is let through]
Choice 3) [Failure] (1 success 2 Failures) G1: "I don't know whether you're spies, assassins or thieves but I've heard enough... Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 4) G1: "Ach- Intruders! Alarm! Intruders!" [Guard pulls alarm chain and a claxon starts] *Initiative*
Choice 5) The party departs and can try again, or look for another way around.
This is a video-game format for a progressive check - PnP is more flexible, obviously, but this is condensed for a video game dialogue tree format. Even so, the important difference here is that the progression thought to success or failure is more flexible, more interesting, and can easily have extra results attached to it for longer term consequences; it's easy to attach flags to the ways you succeeded or failed, and have it lead to things after the conversation, whether that's an established relationship with this guard, the probability of having the guards summoned in your wake even though you were let through, or any number of other things besides. It goes from being a purely binary outcome to something with more potential (though still binary on the surface). Most importantly, however, is that one failure along the way does not simply dump you back at the same singular universal failure point, and even the overall failures, depending on how you get to it, can lead to different results; for example, if you succeeded the intimidation option, but failed overall, the guard might run instead of immediately summoning the other guards. Larian does not do this, at the moment, and their successive checks in dialogue are just cruel and boring. Is it more *Work* than a series of punishing successive checks? Why yes, it is! But that's the thing: making a video game good takes work - something which Larian are already on record for admitting that they sorely underestimated.
|
