|
|
|
addict
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2020
|
Whilst I agree on BG2 loot vs DOS2 Loot, I will add that a degree of randomisation can be fun.
For example, if the World or Act was populated with some random items at game start (and couldn't be changed by re-loading), then I would quite enjoy that. I.e. Location A known to have a Longsword +2 on this play through rolls a Rapier +1 (with added Fire damage) for example. That way re-exploring certain areas on multiple playthroughs has some additional appeal and one looks a little closer at the drops without having the DOS or Diablo feel of changing items every 5 metres.
Obviously not for every item, there need to be specific items that people can count on and build their characters around/ rejoice at finding, but yeah; I am not against randomised loot per say, just within the feel of a BG game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
|
How did you manage to write two posts without mentioning Halsin? O_o Or throwing confetti?  An egregious oversight on my part!  Luckily you did, so here's some confetti: 
Last edited by Icelyn; 21/06/21 12:59 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Sven all but confirmed that they are making BG3 for fans of DOS2. Not fans of the original series, not fans of tabletop DnD, but for their fans whom have already purchased their previous games. He also confirmed they are working on improving combat and other mechanics based on feedback. Since we don't yet know which feedback - let's not take one comment out of the context of the entire interview, let them work and see what happens, hmm? I would love it if the feedback they are listening too is there too little D&D in a D&D game and they plan to make it closer to 5e RAW but I expect the feedback they will listen too is there too much D&D in BG3 and will cut out that boring D&D stuff to make it more EXCITING! We'll see, I do think patch 5 is make or break for this project. What we see in it is the vision of what Larian wants BG3 to be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Also, regarding Tuco's comment on itemization in DoS... that is why I never finished DoS 2. I could not stand the thought of re-gearing with random loot every other level. Yeah, it was fairly terrible, and just another case where they were warned multiple times since DOS 1 that the system detracted for the game but they decided to not listen to the "vocal minority" and disregard feedback.
At least this time having a game being (loosely) built over D&D is saving us the pain.
There are countless reasons I always preferred the way D&D handles itemization compared to a lot of these loot-focused computer games.
Let's take two examples here with Baldur's Gate 2 (which is pretty close to my golden standard when it comes to itemization) and Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 (but especially the second).
In BG2:
- items have a very narrow range of stat scaling between early game and top tier, meaning you go from basic weapons to +2/3 at most, then you adventure into +4/5 when you go in the insane top levels where you are basically a demigod.
- Consequently you have a limited amount of tiers for weapons. A common sword will always be the same, consistently, wherever you'll find it, a +1 magic weapon or armor will be relatively common but expensive, +2 will be a luxury, +3 a valuable artifact or so, etc. Every time a bandit will drop a iron sword you won't have any need to check it and compare it with the inventory, it will just be the same iron sword. And they are worth so little at one point you can even stop picking them up as vendor trash.
- Most of the difference between magic items in the same tier comes from special skills and properties enchanted on them ("attack twice in a turn", "does double damage against enemies of this group", allow you to self-cast celerity once a day", "negates this sort of debuff", "raise this stat to value X", etc, etc.).
- items are designed one by one, the valuable ones are unique, hand-placed in the game world ad when you find them you can confide on the fact you'll carry them for a long time, if not for the entire adventure.
- Merchants also have a defined set of more or less valuable possessions in their inventory and they can occasionally add few more unique items after some specific circumstances.
Conversely, in D: OS1 and 2:
- items range is insane. You start from weapons doing 3-4 damage to end game shit dealing 600 or so. That's a more than 100X scaling factor.
- You drop them constantly, they are randomly generated and stats are ever-changing. This means every time you kill some shit it will be time for a busywork of comparison in your already crowded inventory.
- The above mentioned item range also implies that every time you are finding something cool, it will INEVITABLY be obsolete barely a couple of levels later. While I'm not a fan of this sort of system even in games like Diablo, it can work there because you pay attention to a single character and loot is the whole point. When you are managing a full party of four characters or more, on the other hand, the frequency at which you'll need to compare items and the one at which you'll be asked to replace them become WAY too much busywork to keep up with in an enjoyable manner.
- The randomized nature of item stats and their random placement works actively to damage the reward system in the game, especially when you have god tier stuff dropping out of a random crate you inspected or popping up casually in a merchant inventory, while bosses drop useless garbage with stats misaligned for your needs.
I could go on, but these are the salient points on why I feel "Diablo-styled" loot has absolutely no place in this subgenre.
And I can't overstate how glad I am we are past it in BG3. That why 5e added bounded accuracy, to stop the bloat. It will be interesting to see if Larian respects that but I expect we'll see overpowered items in later chapters that ignore bounded accuracy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jul 2019
|
Sven all but confirmed that they are making BG3 for fans of DOS2. Not fans of the original series, not fans of tabletop DnD, but for their fans whom have already purchased their previous games.
The Larian cheese won't be going anywhere, and will eventually be released will be DOS gameplay with a thin veneer of Forgotten Realms, and a few hamfisted throwbacks to the previous two games in order to satisfy the licensing requirements.
This is such a missed opportunity on Wizard's part. I still find this bizarre businesswise. They will appeal mostly to a 2~3 million DOS public instead of the 40 million D&D players. How can such a boring and unfun system have so many players?
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
|
Sven all but confirmed that they are making BG3 for fans of DOS2. Not fans of the original series, not fans of tabletop DnD, but for their fans whom have already purchased their previous games.
The Larian cheese won't be going anywhere, and will eventually be released will be DOS gameplay with a thin veneer of Forgotten Realms, and a few hamfisted throwbacks to the previous two games in order to satisfy the licensing requirements.
This is such a missed opportunity on Wizard's part. I still find this bizarre businesswise. They will appeal mostly to a 2~3 million DOS public instead of the 40 million D&D players. How can such a boring and unfun system have so many players? I can understand to a certain degree. Not everyone who loves D&D loves cRPGS. So, it isn't truly 40 million they are appealing to. They know if they appeal to the DOS fans, they have a guaranteed 2-3 million buyers. Appealing to D&D fans, they can't be totally sure how many will actually buy their game. My brother, for example, loves tabletop, but he hates video games. Even the best D&D video game would not appeal to him. His friends are the same. It's like saying that if Larian created a DOS tabletop that all 2-3 million DOS fans would buy it. This said, I do want them to be more true to D&D especially since WotC is supposed to be working with them on this. I'm just saying I understand where they might be coming from.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
|
The subreddit, Wolfheart's recent video about homebrew, this forum and a lot of other forums...
Everywhere players are talking about the game, they ask for "more DnD for a better balanced game" and "raised issues about the combat system".
I used "" because this is a summary.
Everyone agree that shove is fun but too powerfull, that advantages are too easy to have, that disengage shouldn't be a bonus action, that surface broke the concentration mechanic, that the rest system is really cheap... Everyone agree that the game rely more on meta gaming than anything else and that the balance is broken (easy in solo and hard with a party of 4)...
According to me that's what they listenned to and that's what he's talking about when he said that combats doesn't meet players expectations.
(Something like that, I don't remember exactly).
Ofc they'll try to please DoS fans. It would be stupid not to. And it would be stupid not to please DnD fans.
It's not like if it was not possible. DoS fans are not only players that wants surfaces everywhere and easy exploit as basic mechanics and DnD fans are not against a few homebrew.
BG3's combats only suffer the very bad balance of its mechanics and as a consequence : a ridiculous difficulty.
Patch 5 will solve most mechanical issues we have raised since the beginning. That's what I understood of this interview.
Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/06/21 03:04 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
|
Sven all but confirmed that they are making BG3 for fans of DOS2. Not fans of the original series, not fans of tabletop DnD, but for their fans whom have already purchased their previous games.
The Larian cheese won't be going anywhere, and will eventually be released will be DOS gameplay with a thin veneer of Forgotten Realms, and a few hamfisted throwbacks to the previous two games in order to satisfy the licensing requirements.
This is such a missed opportunity on Wizard's part. I still find this bizarre businesswise. They will appeal mostly to a 2~3 million DOS public instead of the 40 million D&D players. How can such a boring and unfun system have so many players? Well, I mean, to bring up Solasta - which apparently did a great job with 5E rules - didn't sell more than 500k copies as far as I can tell. So I don't think that's the secret to bringing in the 40 million d&d fans. And reviewers generally loved the game and spoke glowingly of the mechanics and how they were implemented. It just has not translated to massive sales. I have no idea if that means they made enough to make a part 2. I hope so. Currently BG3 has 2-5 Million sold. A lot of that is name-recognition and a lot is DOS fans. So the question is, what will bring in actual D&D fans? Multiplayer I think is a good start. Good story elements and cinema quality VO work. But outside of that..??? Not saying I don't want the combat reforms we have all agreed the game needs. I just don't think its a magic bullet that will translate to sales. I think the Bg name-recognition and advertising will have the most effect. People are kind of shallow like that. I mean in 2 years I expect Mass Effect 4 and the new Dragon Age to have massive sales despite the fact that Bioware seems incapable of making good games anymore since EA bought them. (Mass Effect 3, DA Inquisition, and Andromeda were all lackluster compared to previous titles.)
Blackheifer
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: May 2021
|
It’s true. Even though I despised MEA and was meh about DAI, I am still very curious about DA4, because I love the world lore and am hopeful. Or maybe an idiot. Lol
ME Legendary Edition is a shameless cash grab that I refuse to buy on principle.
All to say…its the old adage. Easier to please the customer you have than get a new one. And people like what they know.
But who knows? Perhaps Larian is listening. We will see in next patch.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
|
So the question is, what will bring in actual D&D fans? -snip-
I think the Bg name-recognition and advertising will have the most effect. People are kind of shallow like that. Exactly this. This partly explains why That Game didn't sell millions of copies; there wasn't the same name recognition OR budget for advertising. If TA had the name recognition as Larian, S*l*s*a had the same name recognition as Baldur's Gate, and TA had the same advertising and development budget, then who knows how many copies it would have sold? I'd wager a comparable number to BG3. Importantly, for BG3, the name recognition will influence tabletop/BG1&2 fans to buy BG3, but it won't guarantee that they'll love it and play it for coutnless hours.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
|
Well, I mean, to bring up Solasta - which apparently did a great job with 5E rules - didn't sell more than 500k copies as far as I can tell. It also comes from an unknown developer at their first title and it didn't cost, what, 1/30th of what BG3 did? And it shows. Do I really need to point to you why that's a disingenuous argument to make?
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Sven all but confirmed that they are making BG3 for fans of DOS2. Not fans of the original series, not fans of tabletop DnD, but for their fans whom have already purchased their previous games.
The Larian cheese won't be going anywhere, and will eventually be released will be DOS gameplay with a thin veneer of Forgotten Realms, and a few hamfisted throwbacks to the previous two games in order to satisfy the licensing requirements.
This is such a missed opportunity on Wizard's part. I still find this bizarre businesswise. They will appeal mostly to a 2~3 million DOS public instead of the 40 million D&D players. How can such a boring and unfun system have so many players? Well, I mean, to bring up Solasta - which apparently did a great job with 5E rules - didn't sell more than 500k copies as far as I can tell. So I don't think that's the secret to bringing in the 40 million d&d fans. Look, Solasta is a game from a small indie studio with no advertising! I have told a few dozen people about it who never heard about it and when I mentioned, indie studio so art and story is only so so but it plays like tabletop, they bought the game and all those people told me they enjoyed it. Using the fact that an indie studio with no advertising only sold 500,000 copies means there no market for more faithful D&D 5e games is a bit disingenuous to me. How many copied did Larian sell of their first game?
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Importantly, for BG3, the name recognition will influence tabletop/BG1&2 fans to buy BG3, but it won't guarantee that they'll love it and play it for coutnless hours. I expect it will sell but have many BG / D&D fans so disappointed so there will never be a Baldur's Gate 4.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
|
Well, I mean, to bring up Solasta - which apparently did a great job with 5E rules - didn't sell more than 500k copies as far as I can tell. It also comes from an unknown developer at their first title and it didn't cost, what, 1/30th of what BG3 did? And it shows. Do I really need to point to you why that's a disingenuous argument to make? I am not being disingenuous. I say all these things in my argument. And I am being sincere. I have watched tons of streamers cover Solasta in glowing terms and it has not resulted in sales. So either streamers are overrated (they are) or sticking to perfect 5E rules is not a magic bullet (it isn't). And I mention that BG3 has name recognition and Advertising on its side. People ARE shallow! Btw, I am not offended but do you understand that accursing a person of being disingenuous is an insult? It gets thrown around a lot in this forum (not by me) and it's really a pretty harsh thing to throw at people. Disingenuous -not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous
Blackheifer
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
However, as DM I would insist - and this is SUPER important - that you play the right Theme Music while doing it. Did you mean ... That... Was surprisingly fitting. Bwahahahahahha :'D I LOVE IT!
Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
|
Combat mechanics is a core part of a game.
It's not everything.
It's close to everything in Solasta because they don't have money to do anything else.
No one ever claim that is was enough to make a legendary games that would sold millions of copies.
Last edited by Maximuuus; 21/06/21 03:59 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Where are you guys getting the sales numbers for Solasta?
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
|
Blackheifer
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Has anyone in this thread actually ever seen a barrel?! My grandfather used to make wine (and olive oil and more). I used to help with the process since I was a kid. Then again we mostly worked with VERY big barrels, the type you hardly ever move anywhere and when you do involve SEVERAL persons at once. The kind that tend to remain in the cellar, with the tap upfront and al that stuff. I like how we went from " Barrelmancy must go ! " to " Ok listen here. So my grandfather is a barrel expert. He told mde not to put too many in a video game ". I just can't xD It's perfect.
Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2019
|
"So the question is, what will bring in actual D&D fans? "
Baldur's Gate was originally a gift I received from a fellow D&D player and relative, who had read that it was a pretty good computer simulation of a D&D campaign. Were it not for the good press and a release date in time for Christmas, I probably never would have even seen it. The long term attraction to me was that I finally I got the chance to play out some high level adventures, try some 9th level spells, Drow areas, etc. that I had read so much about but never experienced in a table-top session. And there is still much more to go! If the goal is really to attract a large segment of D&D players, I would suggest one way is to connect with some of the classic D&D modules ... Keep on the Borderlands, Tomb of Horrors, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, visit the City of Brass, Village of Hommlet, Land Beyond the Magic Mirror, and so on. If you've got the D&D franchise, use it, eh?
But I will also say this, EA is just not for me. As much as I would love to help the developers, I really do not enjoy playing unfinished games.
|
|
|
|
|
