The "Best" solution is to ENTIRELY skip, ALL the content placed here, and to walk up to the Illithid and Ctrl-click it (external to situation game mechanic), without ever even talking to the fishers.
"Best" is relative therm here ... You dont get any additional reward, except for inspiration point ... wich you get for killing the illithid, no matter when, or how you do it ... not for skiping the conversation. If you would say faster, i would agree ... but best?
What is better about this compared to scenario, where you talk to them and find out what is happening .. and THEN you kill the illithid? O_o In your "best" solution, you missed small part of content ...
What is better about this compared to scenario, where you kill those fishermans, bcs you acutaly dont care about them at all .. and THEN once again you kill the illithid (still no matter if you do that imediatly, or sucess your throws) ? In your "best" solution, you missed content, small bunch of XP and some loot ... (of you can knock them out ... if you are willing to sacrifice those XP, but still want loot)
So i simply have to ask: What makes it so "best" anyway? O_o
Originally Posted by Niara
Defend it how you like: it's objectively a failure of design. Context is literally irrelevant in the face of these facts.
What facts? All i see is you stating "its best" that is not facts, that is simple stating opinion ... not even very vell. :-/
Design is ment to teach you that this adventure is not all fun and games, sun and rainbows, smiles and laugh ... and you should THINK before you DO ... In my opinion, its working perfectly ... even tho lesson might seem a little too harsh to some.
Originally Posted by Niara
In talking about how you'd love to do it as a DM you're also highlighting an additional design failure - Everyone else just stands there and watches you feed your head to the Illithid and does absolutely nothing, and there are no options or prompts for them to do anything, in any way.
Wrong ... There are options, you just need to search them actively ... instead of simply expect the game to guide you step by step ... this is not tutorial anymore. O_o
(i shall instert video here, when it will be uploaded ... youtube is somehow stubborn today. -_-) //edit: Finaly
The problem here is that your companions are not independent entities anymore ... YOU are in control ... that means, if you want THEM to do something, YOU must be the one who will do it.
But as you can see, options are right there. BTW the same approach works for Astarion aswell ... i only hope that there will be some restrain, wake up and question ... options for kocked out enemies. Otherwise i would have to kill him almost every single time.
Originally Posted by Niara
They give you this situation - an entity that knows literally everything about your situation, why you're in it, and what's been done to you - and given him to you in a severely weakened, crippled and dying state. Yes, they've illustrated that he's dangerous - that doesn't change the fact that what is being presented is an opportunity that a reasonable player could expect to turn to their advantage in some small way. Except, you can't, and you're punished for trying at all, and rewarded for not doing so.
An entity that knows litteraly everything about your situation ... yes ...
Yet the entity, that have litteraly zero reason to anyhow help you ... Yet the entity, that while you were fighting those 3 people it allready controlled, tryed to control you aswell ... Yet the entity, that bcs of your fight, just lost 3 other people it was controlling ... and therefore logicaly can focus on controling you much more ... And finaly, yet the entity, that game multiple times (once in this very conversation ... right before you made your choice to either break free, or risk your chances) warns you that it wants only use you, and eat you.
That is the point ... Situation SHOULD look, as something you could expect to tunr to your advantage ... Im surprised you expect it to look differently ... do you oftem place neon sign "WARNING! There is trap right here!" abowe your traps?
Originally Posted by Niara
- If the checks involved were not multi-tiered all-failstate checks. That's garbage design to begin with.
I dont even understand this sentence ...
Originally Posted by Niara
- If succeeding in your efforts won you something of value (information that could lead to further dialogues, perhaps, or something nearby that the Illithid had hoped to find in the wreckage that would have helped him and can now help you, maybe).
You failed for a trap, and yet want reward? That is what i would call garbage design.
The illithid didnt hope to find anything ... maybe except those fishermans (aka anyone who would set him free, and possibly prowide snack after). He was simply inside, when ship crushed. O_o And he was pinned down, since some parts have fall on him.
Originally Posted by Niara
- If failing in your efforts put your party into combat. The failing player is stunned/charmed, the others can roll initiative and react, The player, on their turn, will 'help' the Illithid, who stands, and the Illithid, once helped and on his own turn will use devour brain on the victim character (auto success at that point). The party have until that happens to either remove the player from the scene or break the effect, or stop the ilithid, and it's only if they don't do one of these things that he grains his full health, kills the player and wipes the party.
As you can see in that video i recorded for you ... you can do all that, if you choose to. O_o I HONESTLY wonder why (rethorical question, ofcourse) that review autor choosed to click on certain death option instead ... and then was mad about that his character ended up dead.
I wonder if there is any mind control breaking spell (simmilar to protect from good and evil) ... So we can actualy save fishermans. But since it didnt have any effect, when i used that spell (protection from good and evil) on mask-wearing thralls of Hag, im not even sure if that would work. (btw using that spell DO protect PC againts magic in that mask ... that is why i expected it to work the same for NPCs)
Originally Posted by Niara
Now you have a situation that promises a reward for risk, delivers something of value if it is chanced and succeeded at, leads to danger and consequence for failure, and actively engages the players to win over the situation by their own choices. It can lead to a party wipe on extreme failure or poor choice making, but still allows the players to experience the content, even on partial failure, and come out alive, albeit without the value they had hoped to gain from the risk.
Well, Swen specificly told us to "thrust the dices, even if you loose" ... in one of last interviews before whole EA even started ... I gues he decided to give us harsh lesson.
All you want to add there is failsafe, in the case that everything will goes completely wrong ... But that would compeltely destroy the whole point. :-/
Right now it is: You made your choose, and you choosed badly ... now suffer the consequences.
In your design it would be: You made your choose, and you choosed badly ... but here, let me give you YET ANOTHER chance, even if you ignored all those warnings i gived you before ... and if you will ignore this one aswell, i shall be very sad about you ... wich is your punishment by the way.
Funny enough, i had the very same situation in my last tabletop session ... we get to classic Indiana Jones and invisible bridge situation ... we were suppose to proove our thrust by cross the abyss, but our Wizard decided to levitate instead of steping into the void ... DM decided that she did not proove her thrust, and therefore the invisible bridge unmaterialized for her ... when her levitation ended, she begin to fall ... and now: DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up? Wizard: No. DM: Really? Wizard: No. DM: You keep falling into the abyss ... all you can see is the edge more and more distant. DM: Dont you want to reactivate it and get up? Wizard: No. DM: Im trying hard to hint you here ... so: REALLY? Wizard: Oh ... okay, i levitate back up and try to cross the bridge on foot. DM: You crossed the bridge safely, as the rest of the group did before you.
Funny story, but not exactly great desing if you ask me. :-/
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 05/07/2110:01 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
