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Look, I don't want to come off as overly-intolerant, but try to realize that you literally jumped in this thread after we went back and forth on the issue for months (without much discordance, actually, since the overwhelming majority of the users here seems to agree that the current system ranges from terribad to goddamn awful) and your big reveal was "I DON'T KNOW IF YOU GUYS NOTICED, BUT YOU CAN DO [summary description of the very thing we don't like]. THAT SHOULD SOLVE THE ISSUE, SHOULDN'T IT?" And the answer is: NO, it does not. That IS the issue. Here is a practical example (already posted in this very same thread and quoted more times I'd be willing to admit across the rest of the forum and in other places) of why the system is awful: Things that with an "RTS-like" control scheme would literally take a couple of clicks here takes an inane amount of unnecessary intermediate steps.
Lets' take a scenario as an example:
PLAYER 1 is at the gates of a hostile camp and decides he wants to set up an ambush. As a starting maneuver he decides to put his party in stealth, move each one of his party members in a specific corner of the area, then he opens the dances, wipes the enemies (let's sya the brigands) from the face of the planet and goes back to move his entire party as one.
In a traditional system: He will select the whole party, click/press the "stealth" command, then with literally just two clicks for each, he will select and move every character exactly where he wants it. When the fight will be done, a quick click and drag on the whole party or a press the "select all" shortcut and and he will go on his way.
With the Larian system: Click stealth. Oh right, only the selected character goes in stealth, so repeat the process for each one of the four men (imagine if it was a party of six, sigh). Time to tell each one where to... Wait a second, why is everyone moving every time the selected character does? Oh right, time to UNCHAIN each one of them, either by dragging the portrait or right clicking on it and selecting the equivalent function. Now he can tell each one where to go, have the exact same fight and be on his wa- Wait a second, why is everyone standing aroud like an idiot? Oh right, before that he needs to re-select each one of them individually, relink them to the party (which by the way works only if they are already in the proximity, so maybe he needs to move everyone more closely before) and then finally be able to go on his way again.
And please, don't make the similar word count fool you, what we have on the latter is not "from 30% to 50% longer", the description of these actions may be somewhat comparable in length but this second process takes almost four times the amount of work of the first one in practical terms.
Can you see why this system is garbage no matter from what angle you may look at it? As you will be easily able to verify even jumping from post to post discontinuously no one here ignored the possibility to separate portraits by dragging them. We take issue precisely with how stupid and convolute that system is and how quicker and more intuitive a more traditional "click and drag to select" would be. We even talked about possible ways to KEEP some form of auto-follow as an optional alternative for those few who actually may like it (may the gods have mercy on their souls) without making it the main thing. Let alone mandatory as it is now. And honestly trying to hold as an argument that "Your party in auto-follow works fine in JRPGs" seems almost mockery. I expect from a traditional party-based CRPG a very different level of control than what I expect from a Final Fantasy. Especially because in the former positioning is an important factor and in the latter is NOT.
Last edited by Tuco; 23/08/21 09:16 PM.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about Jeneralben but I don't know any other game in which you have to manage units/companions that use this "ghost' (as you call it) chain system but DoS and DoS2.
In other games you select the character(s) or unit(s) you want to move and move them exactly where you want. This is how it works in all cRPG and in strategy games in which you can sometimes have tons of units.
In BG3 you only select 1 character and move him + you always have to choose who's following or not, which lead to many issues (more clicks, less intuitive, harder to properly control your characters, uncontrolled companions movement,...)
Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/08/21 09:31 PM.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about Jeneralben but I don't know any other game in which you have to manage units/companions that use this "ghost' (as you call it) chain system but DoS and DoS2.. In most JRPGs, especially of the more traditional type, you usually control just your main character and the other companions are basically "virtualized" in the process. They either disappear from screen entirely (overlapping with your characters like Naruto shadow clones) until a dialogue or battle starts, or they simply trail behind the main character as some sort of incorporeal ghosts. I'm guessing that's what he's referring to, but as I said it's both a very different system from what BG3 uses and on top of that definitely NOT something you'd want as a control scheme in a CRPG where positioning of each character can be relevant at any given moment. I guess you could SOMEWHAT trace some analogy between the two systems (mostly on both being fairly terrible) but in terms of design requirements each of them needs to answer to... it's apples and oranges, really.
Last edited by Tuco; 23/08/21 09:41 PM.
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Well, I only played a few JRPG (Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy 7+, Ni No Kuni, Valkyria Chronicles, Fire Emblem,...) but as far as I remember you can't manage your companions movements and you don't ever have to outside combats phase.
Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/08/21 09:49 PM.
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I think at one point I suggested that an actual ghost chain of the jrpg sort (where the followers were actually ghosted) would be rather less frustrating than what we have now, but I think that was the weakest possible solution proposed, among many.
Flower language isn't really tuco's thing I don't think lol. He's more like our resident caustic, in this thread at any rate hehe.
Party movement remains the main impediment to my overall enjoyment of this game. It's hardly improved in the 5 patches we've seen thus far, though the chain break toggle hotkey was somewhat helpful, moving characters around still feels like a chore. I want it to feel effortless and intuitive and zen like the older rts schemes, whereas here its like totally anxiety inducing.
Right now tactical view feels pretty worthless to me. 100% straight down view for the camera makes the game feel really claustrophobic with a touch of vertigo for me. That might just be a personal issue, but that was my immediate impression of tactical view. Even panning way out on the zoom, I just don't like that camera angle at all. It makes my eyes uncomfortable, and fucks with my inner ear or something, so its hard to get all tactical there. I want vertical elevation for the cam, or just a regular orbital cam, so I can maintain in an ISO or driving angle view, but without hobbling myself overmuch just trying to see what's going on.
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Yeah, the "tactical view" you can access by pressing "O" (by default) feels fairly pointless. Too close to the ground to be of any actual use, too perpendicular to it give you a clear view of what's going on.
I'm not sure if the few times I tried to activate it I've EVER found myself preferring it to the conventional camera under any metric (which is saying something, given than even the default camera isn't exactly flawless).
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Communication Problems:
"that's an argument in its favor... How?" Please try to avoid over-using that sentence structure. It is counter productive. "How is that an argument in its favor?" is the way to say the same thing without sounding childish and overly combative. I understand you are in Italy and so your exposure to the English language may be limited. To a native English speaker this phrasing is reserved for combative and immature conversations. The internet is full of combative and immature conversations, but it has been getting better very quickly, which is why your wording sounds like a holdover from 2000. Wow. This is such an embarrassing post. This level of condescension (and language snottery) is a much greater internet sin than a bit of saucy phrasing. Perhaps it was a knee jerk reaction to getting called out for uninformed posting? It happens to the best of us…but I hope you do better next time.
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stranger
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Communication Problems:
"that's an argument in its favor... How?" Please try to avoid over-using that sentence structure. It is counter productive. "How is that an argument in its favor?" is the way to say the same thing without sounding childish and overly combative. I understand you are in Italy and so your exposure to the English language may be limited. To a native English speaker this phrasing is reserved for combative and immature conversations. The internet is full of combative and immature conversations, but it has been getting better very quickly, which is why your wording sounds like a holdover from 2000. Wow. This is such an embarrassing post. This level of condescension (and language snottery) is a much greater internet sin than a bit of saucy phrasing. Perhaps it was a knee jerk reaction to getting called out for uninformed posting? It happens to the best of us…but I hope you do better next time. Actually no, the way Tuco speaks is embarrassing for anyone who is not a non-English speaker. Look at how he keeps using the same tortured phrase over and over. Look at the word "Italy" under his name. He's obviously not a native English speaker, he probably practiced and learned from the internet (poor soul). You guys are doing him a disservice by not recognizing this impediment and trying to help him out. Because other people, who don't recognize the international nature of this forum, are just going to write him off as an ass. He's obviously a passionate and reasonable individual who could contribute and be heard better if his wording didn't get in the way. I'm actually quite proud I explained to him why he sounds like an ass when he's trying to communicate, a lesser poster would have just gotten mad at Tuco for talking like he's in some space alien debate team. This dumb thread is number 5 when someone shows up to the forums to learn what everyone's talking about, and it's repulsive to read even though I agree with the main gist. (PS: your avatar is embarrassing. JFC.)
Last edited by JeneralBen; 30/08/21 10:12 AM.
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Man, I'm so glad you took the time to explain me how to not sound like an ass and not be repulsive to read, even at cost of leading by (negative) example just to make your point.
Now, please, try to stick to the point of the discussion instead of piling up the "ad hominem". Or just don't let the pride hit you on the way out.
Last edited by Tuco; 30/08/21 10:36 AM.
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Duchess of Gorgombert
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I'm actually quite proud I explained to him why he sounds like an ass when he's trying to communicate Please take some enforced time out to fully appreciate your pride.
J'aime le fromage.
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Also, isn't the "ghost chain" idea just exactly what final fantasy rpgs have been doing for ages? Nope. The origin of that system, I believe are later (post Baldurs gate) BioWare RPGs like KOTOR of more importantly DragonAge. What Larian missed that with limited controls also came limited interactions. There was little to no reason to split or switch control in those games. That said, I remember even traps in Dragon Age Origin were a pain, with stupid companion triggering traps you were trying to disarm. "Separate all" shortcut welt a long way on making the system more manageable as I don't have to struggle with chaining system anymore. Worryingly Wasteland3 more or less copied Larian"s "single character control, all others follow" system, albeit with better character selection. Plenty of issues have been transferred over, including characters lagging behind, or tripping over traps.
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i hated DOS2 and certainly BG3 chaining system. prior to BG3 demo was released, i recalled it was being discussed on IINM. But still it was still being tagged on again on BG3. this lead me to believe that BG3 was built on top of a working DOS2 game. I prefer the drag and multi-select from the gameplay screen. With shift or ctrl to add/remove selection just like the older baldur's gate title. The chaining system leads to too much annoyance. I believe this was discussed in depth. The question perhaps is, would Larian budge from their old system? Do they have plans in doing so?
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Fully agree. This is one major issue of the game! This system (togeather with other issues) stoped me playing DO:S 2. This is more DO:S than BG cause the
predecessors used the system we all expect.
Last edited by schpas; 17/10/21 12:49 PM.
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It's interesting to note that some other posters have commended Larian for 'listening to feedback' and whilst that is the case for some aspects and mechanics, I find it hard to believe that changing Minthara's hairstyle several times is of more import than the almost universally panned party control system. It would be great if they would give some indication of what their plans are with this control system rather than months of silence between patches and a huge announcement about what they have added/changed. It really is piss poor communication, nobody is asking for daily updates but a couple of times a month wouldn't hurt just to keep people interested and discussing.
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It would be great if they would give some indication of what their plans are with this control system rather than months of silence between patches and a huge announcement about what they have added/changed. Or worse, vague teases about "things that are totally coming in the future and you guys cannot even imagine!". I mean, they are right, I can't even begin to fucking imagine what they are prioritizing at the moment, given their erratic behavior when it comes to "listening to feedback" or conveniently ignore it.
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I mean, they are right, I can't even begin to fucking imagine what they are prioritizing at the moment, given their erratic behavior when it comes to "listening to feedback" or conveniently ignore it. lol. As they say, "it's funny because it's true" 
Last edited by Peranor; 17/10/21 05:46 PM.
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Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.
EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least.
Last edited by Dulany67; 18/10/21 10:47 AM.
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I find the "chain-system" to be the equivalent of trying to herd cats with a wet rope. More importantly it seriously interferes with my enjoyment of what is otherwise an outstanding game. Please drop it for a more conventional form of group control.
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Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.
EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least. torture
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Chain must go. It's a worse way to handle something that was perfected 20 years ago.
EDIT: Or Larian should explain their reasoning, at least. torture Their reasoning is simple. Deep inside of their hearts they hate us. It's their vengence for crunch time.
Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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