Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Barrelmancy is Dead - c'est la vie.

So ...
I finaly get to test it myself ... and even if that is kinda embarasing, i must admit it was a lot of fuss for nothing.

Im still perfectly able to drag Barells wherewer i want, and blow them whenever i want ...
(I mean, so far i tested only Nautiloid tanks, but you get the idea.)

So ...
I would probably agree with Blackheifer ...

I imagine the reason they made it the way they did is because it is much more easily tuned than a "new" system of management. This way they can add a difficulty slider that affects how much weight a character with "x" Strength can carry/push/throw late on in the development process and let players choose their personal level of cheese. It seems to me that this is a much more sensible, consistent and adaptable process than we had previously, and can be adapted to keep player agency at the forefront further down the line.

Agreed. You could completely end B-mancy at this point by simply changing the weights on the barrels themselves to something a bit higher. As it stands its much more limited now. Nobody is going to be holding 7-8 barrels in inventory to toss out at a moments notice.

Being an enthusiastic barrelmancer and fierce defender of the practice is a new low even for Ragnarok, by the way.

I don't really care about barrelmancy and I always felt that, of the Larian homebrew rules it was the least obtrusive and most forgivable, but I do feel a need to address this list you made. Partly because I'd feel annoyed if I didn't and partly because it feels like it would be fun.

1) You can do that in the game? I actually think throwing heavy barrels might be *more* realisitc.

2) That sounds perfectly reasonable and realistic to me. If you're strong enough to lift a properly weild warhammer, why wouldn't you be strong enough to throw it?

3) I mean, I feel like a goblin would be lighter than a full barrel, and if you do it quickly enough, their cooperation won't be much of an issue.

4) Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. You got them there.

5) Again, you got them there.

And I'm done. And I was right, this was fun, thanks for the opportunity. And I'm glad the current state of things left you feeling happy enough in the end.

Infinite +1 to this ... ^_^
Man can dream, right?

Im allways for fun.

I didnt try to be completely honest ...
But in my last gameplay (actualy penultimate ... is that real word? ) i was able to thrown both weapon i was holding (with no indication that is weapon im holding) and my own boots i had on myself ... and since there was some armor, i just presumed the same rule aply to anything you are wearing.
But maybe i was wrong with this one.

Yes, you are right ...
Here my complaint was not actualy based on it should be impossible, but on the fact that throw your ONLY weapon is the stupidest idea you could do in combat.

Depends ... they still could grab your armor, or arm, or dunno ... anything.
Just note, in previous patches, i was even able to kill one Cambion by throwing other Cambion on him.
It was funny as hells (get it?).

I actualy write this one badly, now when i read it.
The funny part here is, that while you were (again on previous patch, i didnt try yet on 5) totally able to grab fully consciousness, armed, armored and winged cambion ... and throw him at another cambion, causing quite significant damage to both.
Yet you were unable to throw rotting corpse. O_o

I was playing advocatu diaboli in this particular point ...
Honestly i would not mind if Gold would be weightless ... i would probably not mind even if it would become just abstract currency, written in top right corner, just next to other stuff ... since so far i didnt find any use for gold as an item ... now when i think about it, i never tryed to throw for example 10 gold pieces between goblins ... that could either be fun, or huge dissapointment.

Happy to serve. ^_^
Yeah, in the end the words sounded a lot worse than it actualy is.

You can do better. Behave.

It's interesting and confusing to me that you're saying not using those things improved your experience, which is exactly the point.

Many people also see part of the game as a challenge to overcome, using the rules of the game. By having these cheese tactics in place it removes that challenge.

You see removing/toning down these features as ruining someone else's fun, but having it in there actually affects people's fun too. Building a barbarian that does tons of damage doesn't feel so badass anymore when in that same universe anyone can just blow each other up with tons of free explosives everywhere.


You explain why it is so yourself partially. It is a fantasy world so we'll say it's fine they make that stuff.

If there was so much explosive material around and everyone has magic pockets, there would be little need for knights with swords or even wizards that can conjure up a fireball. You could just bring explosive barrels, roll them at the enemy and throw a firebolt cantrip. It makes all classes unnecessary and the world less believable.

Something similar to oil should be rare and expensive. This is more like gunpowder, which should be even more rare. Believability tends to be stretched in fantasy, but there is a limit to where it starts to damage immersion.

Are you still sure about this when the highest difficulty comes around and you can't get past a certain encounter that has explosive barrels right next to it? Is someone who has trouble on their first playthrough sure about this? You have 411 hours into this game, it's easy for you to know the intention now, but someone who plays it for the first time doesn't know this. Having spent time researching and creating your first very cool character, only to find out that everyone with explosive barrels is more effective is a very disappointing experience.

Having to put in effort makes it more rewarding, which = more fun.

I don't know if you play D&D, but finding a barrel of explosives can be really cool. Then figuring out a way to bring it along can be really cool when you blow up a camp of orcs or something. Now imagine that every encounter the DM describes what you see and then says there is an explosive barrel in the middle of it. You stop exploding them because the third time it's already stopped being fun, but the DM keeps telling you about them. You'd start to roll your eyes a lot. That's what it currently feels like.

This has nothing to do with puritans, you can have explosives in 5e. It's about people who want to actually have their choices matter and the world to be believable.

Nope, the option is shoved in your face so much that it doesn't feel clever anymore. It feels like it's what the designers wanted you to do.

When you can do the second, the first option doesn't feel good/clever anymore. Challenge/effort makes things rewarding. Additionally, an explosive barrel that you brought from town to the other kind of the map also doesn't feel like it's what the designers meant for you to do, but rather something you came up with and is specific to your gaming experience.

Your whole problem with not understanding this is in what it feels like to do these things for most people. You feel it's fun to just try different things. Other people think it's fun to come up with clever strategies and outsmart the game, or to be challenged. Being "clever" in this game is too easy, because everything is just allowed. Constraints breed creativity. Someone who came up with really cool party tactics can actually be disappointed when they find out that barrelmancy (or shoving everything for that matter) is just better. It's fine if it's there, but it needs to be balanced around other choices.

A 9th level Wizard or Sorcerer can be an actual barrelmancer and more with Telekinesis (and Bag of Holding, perhaps).

You can drink a Potion of Giant's Strength and have fun throwing barrels.

Why should anyone be able to do it by default without any skills or clever use of consumables? It just takes away the coolness and fun of it if it's casual business.

AMEN!

Yes yes yes! +1

Exactly. Blowing enemies with barrels is still a thing, and is very effective, and can be to some extend abused with unique build/smart use of spells consumables - but it's rare enough to remain special and fun, rather then constant over the top dull.

Well, yes ... i dont see any contradiction there.
I want serious gameplay > i dont use cheese > i have it > im having fun.
I want crazy gameplay > i do use cheese > i have it > im having fun.

Simple as that.
Once i "remove" one option for good, i would no longer be able to have *that* type of fun, when i want it ... therefore, its ruining my fun.

I cant agree with this opinion ...
As i allready stated countless times (and since you are quoting me, i presume you have readed some of them) ... i dont believe that existence of easier path is ruining anything ... its walking the path. :-/

It seem to me like having mountain ... with elevator on it.
I have to ask myself: Do i want to just look from the top? Or do i want to climb this mountain?
I want to look ... and i dont care how i get on top > i pick elevator.
I want to climp ... and that climbing is actualy fun for me > i pick the wall.
But once the elevator is turned down, bcs climbers had the idea that its ruining their effort ... i, again, lost my fun (in those days when im too lazy to climb).

As i said countless times, it seem that i am unable to understand this state of mind ... since all i care about is mine own fun ... maybe im simply too selfish (or you are not enough, w/e) to understand your problem with existence of "easy button" ... but its existence allone simply dont diminish my achievments in game ... when i use them, then (and ONLY THEN) yes, it does, but that is purely my own fault.

I disagree ...

Barells are dangerous, anyone can jump at you while you are preparing them and blow them to your face ...

Knight with sword is perfectly sufficient against smaller threats, and thousand times safer.

Also, note that any Wizard that us conjuring up fireball can be potentialy even more dangerous (since right now, explosion radius is ridiculously small), and also Wizards (if his specialisation is Evocation i think) attack can be completely harmless for your own forces ... that is luxury Barells dont provide. Next positive for Wizards over barells is the fact that all damage Wizard do, is practicaly free ... i mean, yes i know he will expend *some* uninportant resource that will replenish itself for free while he sleeps ... but that, again is something Barrels never do, you have to obtain (no matter if buy or steal) another every time you use it. And as before, there is no way that Wizard will blow to your own face, just bcs someone attacked him sooner than you expected. (unless his name is Gale from Waterdeep)

So ... nope, from imersion perspective any ruler who would dismis all his knoghts and wizards and stuck his castle with gunpowder ... well, lets say end of his reign would be certainly spectacular, and swift.

Well "so much" seem like quite strong words ...
For one, i must admit that i have no idea how many barrels of wich flamable material is in game curently ... but i honestly doubt its more than, lets say 50 for example.

That dont sounds like so much to me ... especialy, once you remind yourself that ingame map is obviously not 1:1, since it would take Goblins to litteraly 5 minutes walking east to find Druids grove.

And yes, i know that in Goblin camp there is room that is STUFFED with explosives ... but that have story-wise reason.

I never found them anywhere near Githyanki patrol, inside Hag's Lair, around Redcaps, Wood Woads, not even close to Gnolls pack, Phase Spider Matriarch, Bulette, Minotaurs, Duegars, Hooked Horrors, anywhere in Myconid Collony, or anywhere near those petrified Drows where you can fight Spectator. O_o

So ... that "certain encounter" you are talking about is? O_o
Bcs i can remember only Goblin leaders ... and maybe Cambion General (still dont remember his name) in tutorial ...
And in both cases you need to drag Barells from conciderable distance to use them in my opinion. o_O

//Edit: OH I JUST REMEMBERED!!! Intellect devourers!!!
That is actualy the only encounter, where you have explosives prepared "just next to the enemy" ... all you need in that fight is huge neon sign "blow this" pointing at that tank.
But im not sure if that encounter even can be concidered hard, i dont even remember when i was "at least" hit from them. O_o

I believe this is just matter of person's mindset ...
Personaly i would be even happier, knowing that i used the hard-er(or -ish, if you want) way and yet overcome that challenge.

Also, i cant keep for myself that note that if our speculative person really "spend time researching" the game ... and never reads about Barells ... lets be honest with each other for a while, he obviously didnt researched too thoroughly.

I agree ... except the wording "having to".

When game forces me to do two hours research ... im annoyed. :-/
When game presents me something so interesting that i would do two hours research ... im exited.

And to keep it closer to your quote ... you can imagine that research would probably be named "how to play properly this class".

Well yes, but actualy no ...
Me and my group play something simmilar (Dračí Doupě ... it could be called Czech version of DnD, but its not pure translation, there are differences), but we use much more homebrew rules and much less dicerolls.
Maybe even that is partialy the reason i have so little problems with them.

I bet.

Not to me.
What can i tell, its good description (although maybe a little exaggerated, since game is not reminding you their presence ... they just "are there". ) ... but this is pure personal insight ... i dont see it that way, sory i really dont have any other reaction for this. :-/

This is the actual core of the problem ...
This is exactly what im simply unable to understand ... how existence of other option diminishes the first option? Now you even get so far so you imply (or it seems that way) that any other choice dont even matter. O_o

If this mindset would be "default" in Wizards of the Coast ... we would only have Half-Orc Barbarians ... only have High Elf, or Gnome Wizards ... only have Wood Elves druids ...
They are most effective, so there are no reason to have any other.
Luckily, they understands walue of choices ... even if some are not as effective as others.

And all i can do is suggest you the same ... next time you will see a Barrel, just CHOOSE to focus on your fun, walk past it like it dont even exist and enjoy your game. Sooner or later you will notice that its existence is not threatening your fun ... it was you the whole time.

I know i said im unable to understand only that thing i mentioned previously ...
But actualy you managed to find me another topic.

You say that having so many Barells dont feel "good" anymore ...
Does that mean that killing, lets saaaaay ... 10th enemy with fireball dont feel good anymore? That spectacular magic explosion wich will turn your enemies in cinders become boring somehow? O_o
The same story with other classes ...
Will you stop healing your party with your Cleric after few fights, bs you "did that before" ?
Will you stop changing forms with your Druid, unless you find some new animal you didnt turn into previously?
Will you stop banging your enemies heads with Barbarian, bcs it become routine?

I believe you dont ...
So how is that possible that "blow XYth barrel" is boring ... but do litteraly anything that you did for last couple of hours, is still the same fun?
If i had to bet, its not bcs you blowed XYth barrel, its just bcs YOU personaly, dont like blowing barrels in general.

Its just different kind of reward ...

When you overcome your enemy by conventional methods, you feel good bcs you did it.
When you find some unconventional method, (either blowing your first Barrel, or push a statue over them) you feel good bcs you finded it.
When you overcome your enemy by blowing your 1000th barell, you feel good bcs you either obviously like it ... or bcs you obviously dont care about the challenge itself, and just enjoy getting good loot.

The point is simple, every approach provides its own reward ... and that is how things are suppose to be.

Agreed ... So?
Again, either you are happy you figured something out ... or you figure you dont want to use it, therefore you do not.

I would like to focus on last words in that post "is specific to your gaming experience" ... especialy single word in the middle "YOUR".
Personaly i concider this word especialy important.

As i admit in almost every post in this threat for past few weeks.
Glad someone finaly noticed.

Well ... lets say yes for example purposes.

The beauty of this game is that *right now* we all are ABLE to have our fun ... sometimes some of us need to close their eyes a little, i can agree on that ... but the ability is still there.

Again, that is just question of mindset.
I would be happy that i came up with really cool party tactics and never needed this easy button ...
But if i would be unable to came up with that really cool party tactics, i would be frustrated that im stuck on this stupid overwhelmigly hard boss and cant move futher ... if you want example, search "Githyanki patrol overpowered" threat (or something like that).

With one hand on heart and another one on Bible (i hope it counts from atheist) ...
I cant agree more.

I just dont think they are.
Proof? Any combat is perfectly doable without blowing even single Barrel ... and as long it stays that way, i believe we all should be satisfied. :P

//2.Edit:
I would still like enemies to react on that PC are placing explosives around them tho.

Ragnarok.
"Winning" arguments on the forum with contrived logic and disingenuous talking points since October 2020, all thanks to the uncanny ability of murdering people's mouse wheels and using pointless multiquotes as a bizarre ritual to drain everyone's mental strength.

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I think I find the sheer amount of explosive barrels placed everywhere is even more ridiculous. Maybe Larian should look in to that as well and ask their world/map/environment designers to maybe pull in the reins a wee bit when it comes to explosive barrels.

Barrelmancy is "ok" in Divinity OS 2 because it follows whatever logic Larian studio wants.

But it doesn't merge with Baldur's Gate franchise, and doesn't make sense in DnD 5.

Let's pretend that the common barrels we see in the game (firewine barrel) weights the same as wine barrels do in real life.

Empty, they weight around 90 pounds, and full they weight around 600 pounds.

In the game these common usual barrels weight 10 pounds.

And the "That's no big deal, because players don't have to use them if they don't want to" is the kind of excuse that can be used to implement whatever flaws in gameplay, lore, or mechanic:

- How about putting infinite attribute points at player's disposal on character creation?
A: "That's no big deal, because players don't have to use it if they don't want to."

- How about a portal opening on player's camp, and having a demon giving explosives with no weight and automatic crossbows, so everyone can cheese the game more?
A: "That's no big deal, because players don't have to use them if they don't want to."

- How about putting all magic scrolls inside an infinite bag of holding on the beach, so the player can access all of them on the beggining of the game?
A: "That's no big deal, because players don't have to use them if they don't don't want to."

And the list could go on for a series of absurd things, that could easily be defended using this same flawed logic.

These are all excellent points.

Yeah I think the argument of "just don't use it" falls apart when you subject it to these sorts of escalating absurdities. I mean the whole point of having good world building is that the world feels - even with magic - at least somewhat realistic, or that there are non-arbitrary rules that you have to work with. Any exceptions have to have a story-driven reason behind them.

And even in D&D there is a way to be a barrel-tossing lunatic- but you need to build your character around that.

The point though seems moot as I stated earlier - as Larian applies the RAW - Barrelmancy goes away on its own. I am seeing it less and less in Multiplayer because its just not worth it to lose that kind of inventory space for a single barrel that can't be thrown anyway.

Exactly.

"Single player games don't need to be balanced" is another absurd thing people say without further thought.

Magic isn't an excuse to do whatever.

The world has to be faithful to DnD 5 rules and Baldur's Gate (Forgotten Realms) lore, doing some slightly changes to preexisting rules to make the experience better (like making rangers better, as they're lacking in the PnP DnD 5, as an example).

The problem isn't the carrying capacity, the problem is the NPCs watching you put gunpowder in front of them and thinking that's normal, or they arrive at a place full of gunpowder and do nothing.