Melkisedeck destroyed your whole "just don't use it" argument
This method is in my language called "dementace" ... google translator sais that in english its "disclaim" but that dont feels right.
The whole idea of this method is that its user will use a seemingly similar argument to make completely meaningless and unrelated statements, which people will then associate with the argument, instead of focusing on what the argument was actually expressed about. ...
As I see in the local audience, this is a successful procedure ... unfortunately.
Example:
Original object of argument:
"Barrel of firewine that weigths 40Kg ... cannot be thrown ... and you need at least 16(?)Str and sacrifice major part of your whole carryweight (sometimes even all of it) to at least manipulate it."
Demented oject of argument (quoted):
"Portal opening on player's camp, and having a demon giving explosives with no weight and automatic crossbows."
If you really cant see difference between theese two objects, im affraid that im not the one who ... "lack understanding of the most basic concepts of game design and immersion" to use your own words.
The problem with barrelmancy is that it was too easy to bring a bunch of barrels or other easy explodables. If only your high STR characters can carry one barrel it's pretty much fixed. Nobody's arguing that they should remove explosive barrels altogether, it just shouldn't trivialize everything else.
With the original barrelmancy problem it would literally be the same as giving everyone several necklaces of fireball. The point of his argument was that a game should have rules and restrictions, which you're clearly arguing against.
You're still acting as if people just want others to not have fun,
I never said that ... well, i asked that few times, if that is actualy reason, bcs that i would be able to understand (kind of) ... so i can see where you get this idea.
But i only and repeately claimed that removing something that is fun for me results in me having less fun. I would say that should not require futher explanation. O_o
Honestly, do you people even realize that this game is not for you allone? O_o
Since it dont really seem that way, more like ... "i want this game to be perfect for myself and screw others". :-/
I must admit it kinda makes me sad. :-/
We could all have the perfect (or at least good enough) game (i tryed, therefore i know it IS possible), but you (and by this i dont mean Blackheifer specificly, but you as a whole part of comunity fighting against anything 5e-unpure) just seem to me like you, for some unknown reason, cant stand the fact that someone else is having fun in other way, that you specificly allowed ... there is harsh world waiting for you outside with this mindset. :-/
Come on man...
while I already explained to you that the presence of this stuff actually affects people's enjoyment.
No, you didnt explained anything ... you (as many others) stated it, if that is what you mean.
But never told me either why, nor how. O_o
So please, if you really already explained ... quote me anything you wrote that answers this:
Why do you need to force everyone to play the game your prefered way to have your fun?
The problem with barrelmancy is, as many other say, that it's an optimal strategy. Every encounter can be easily overcome using it. In addition it's a very easy exploit to find, so much so that it's hard to say if it even is an exploit. Just by playing the game normally you can find out about how strong this stuff is, as it's simply just a feature of the game.
Now add to that the amount of explosive barrels available (which is also immersion breaking) and you've got a situation where you as a player are not sure whether the game is balanced around this or not. If you don't know this for sure and your abilities don't matter for barrelmancy, and thus for encounters, it feels like your choices didn't matter.
The amount of explosive barrels available also causes the problem of removing the novelty of the idea. Bringing along an explosive barrel to win an encounter can be really cool, but when that can just be done every battle, it's pretty boring. The amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution. A single oil barrel that you could use somewhere, is way more exciting than an oil barrel around every corner.
It's not a glitch, but a feature, which makes it hard to ignore. Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight. If it were an obvious glitch, like item-duping in other games for example, people would not nearly have as much a problem with it.
All in all, people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy, but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience. This means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again. You find a difficult encounter: "Maybe you can stash some loot in order to have the barbarian bring that barrel from the town and then you'll get them!" is way more fun than: "This encounter is hard, I guess I'll take one of those 7 explosive barrels out of my inventory." If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once.
That whole post is about it not being fun. It's not about forcing everyone to play my preferred way, it's about the designers creating the game in such a way that I can use every tool in the game to overcome the challenges without me having to arbitrarily decide which tools I do or do not use.
Some could say that i make as much effort as you do ...
Or at least, i didnt get much "i understand your point" from the other side ... even tho i must admit that there are rare exceptions ... Blackheifer was one of them, right now i honestly cant remember anyone else, but im sure someone is still there.
//Edit:
Maybe even a little more, because unlike others, I still don't feel the need to lower myself to personal attacks.
That's because you don't make any good points.
The stuff you're arguing for is exactly the same, you want it to be perfect for you.
I never claimed otherwise ...
Except the situations, where i claimed that my fun is not endangering yours, since you can avoid it easily. :P
Yet you pretend to have the moral high ground for not trying to "remove" other people's fun.
[quote=Dabedidabe]Many people want an RPG to be an immersive experience, where the world is believable and their choices matter.
Well, im one of them ...
I simply dont concider removing from the game everything that i could potentialy dislike, to be "immersive" in any way.
Immersion is about the believability of the world. It can be stretched a bit, which is often done with gold not having weight. One character carrying 4 barrels of liquid is not believable though.
Removing things you dislike is not by definition immersive no, but you see, in that statement you remove all context from the discussion and basically state that everyone else is just arguing for the things they dislike to be removed. It's such a dishonest statement and I really can't see it as anything else than a troll trying to be infuriating. Let's say I don't like hammers, I would never argue to have them removed for the sake of immersion, because it's still believable that they're in the world and people use them as a weapon. If every hammer attack made enemies fly 30 feet into the air on impact adding extra fall damage, then I would argue to tone it down with immersion being one of many reasons. That's where the immersion problem came from.
You just want a map where everything is allowed and you make your own rules.
As before, you said that not me ...
But as long as you keep seeing me like this, i dont blame you for missunderstanding everything i say ... its just mindset.
It's derived from your "just don't use it" attitude.
The barrels are not going back to what they were, the only way to have them back will be to use mods.
Eh ... i cant help the feeling that you didnt actualy read that arguing ...
As far as i know, nobody wants them "back" ... AKA as they were. O_o
I want them to remain as they are right now ... (+ add reaction when you drop it next to NPC)
And other people want them just removed completely.
I'm currently not playing, but from what I gather it's now harder to bring barrels with you with carry weight. Which is basically the fix(toning it down) most people(including me) wanted. This is exactly what I'm arguing for. I'm so confused.
In that statement you basically said that you agree with everything I said, you like it this way. Having a reaction from NPCs when you do this stuff around them is also a great idea, as it would be very good for immersion!
