Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
The problem with barrelmancy is that it was too easy to bring a bunch of barrels or other easy explodables. If only your high STR characters can carry one barrel it's pretty much fixed.
Same fix you get, when NPC start to react that you are placing explosives next to them. O_o

Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
With the original barrelmancy problem it would literally be the same as giving everyone several necklaces of fireball. The point of his argument was that a game should have rules and restrictions, which you're clearly arguing against.
Original barrelmancy problem dont extist anymore ... and even myself dont cry for that, lets focus on present. smile

Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
Come on man...
What should i say to this ... cone on you too? laugh

Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
The problem with barrelmancy is, as many other say, that it's an optimal strategy. Every encounter can be easily overcome using it. In addition it's a very easy exploit to find, so much so that it's hard to say if it even is an exploit. Just by playing the game normally you can find out about how strong this stuff is, as it's simply just a feature of the game.

Now add to that the amount of explosive barrels available (which is also immersion breaking) and you've got a situation where you as a player are not sure whether the game is balanced around this or not. If you don't know this for sure and your abilities don't matter for barrelmancy, and thus for encounters, it feels like your choices didn't matter.

The amount of explosive barrels available also causes the problem of removing the novelty of the idea. Bringing along an explosive barrel to win an encounter can be really cool, but when that can just be done every battle, it's pretty boring. The amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution. A single oil barrel that you could use somewhere, is way more exciting than an oil barrel around every corner.

It's not a glitch, but a feature, which makes it hard to ignore. Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight. If it were an obvious glitch, like item-duping in other games for example, people would not nearly have as much a problem with it.

All in all, people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy, but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience. This means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again. You find a difficult encounter: "Maybe you can stash some loot in order to have the barbarian bring that barrel from the town and then you'll get them!" is way more fun than: "This encounter is hard, I guess I'll take one of those 7 explosive barrels out of my inventory." If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once.
This is the core(st? laugh ) problem in our dialogue ...
Wat you see is "explanation" ... what i see, is "statement" ...

You are just telling me that game is ruined for you ... but you dont explain me why.
And that is the only thing i wanted (actualy even needed) to know, everything else i have heared thousand times over.

This one will be long ... but i do my best to explain you my point of view on that:
You stated that Barrels are present in game, and teoreticaly could be used anywhere ...
But they are not present in "every encounter" as you said it, they have to be carryed to those encounters (maybe except Gut, and possibly Ragzlin that is pretty close, but for both there are much easier tactics) ...
That is why i just cant accept this argument. :-/
If you were right, and there were coventient Barrel of gunpowder next to every, or at least half harder boss encounters ... i would agree with you, but they simply are not. :-/
If you drag them there, use them, and then feel like your game was just ruined, its not misstake of that barrel ... even less if you do that again. laugh

You stated, that Barrels are seen as "an optimal strategy" ...
But that is also not valid ...
Actualy by using them in Tutorial, im prolonging the thing that can be done in less than 10 minutes to almost 3/4 hour ... and as i said multiple times, so far i never managed to kill all 3 cambions with that explosion allone, so all i did is shorten the combat, therefore the "optimal strategy" and "easy button" is not even working properly here laugh ... that dont seem to be price high enough to pay? laugh
If you have seen Wolfhearts video of Him vs. all Goblin leaders, he also used some explosives there ... preparation took him almost whole hour (shame he cut it so it cannot be seen, not sure if he record his streaming) ... and we all should know that he could kill them "convencial way" and funny enough, in this particular example it again would ben even easier. laugh
I dont have data for any other encounters, ince i didnt use them there ... if you have any screen or video, please share.

You stated, that amount of Barrels is "immersion breaking" ...
I never counted them ... if you did, again, please share. smile
My gues is aproximately 20-25 ... wich for whole map, with two levels and 21 potentialy challenging encounters (meaning: Ruin looters outside, and inside, attact at Gate, fight by windmill, Wood Woads, Red Caps, Masks, Hag, Gut, Minthara, Ragzlin, ...theoreticaly we can count outside of Goblin camp as another..., potentialy Ogres, Gnolls, Githyanki patrol, Spider matriarch, Minotaurs, Bulette, Hooked Horrors, potentialy Myconid Willage, Duergar slavers) isnt so much in my opinion. O_o
You can notice i leaved some, since i concidered them the most trivial fights ...
I know, most people using this sentence is not actualy talking about numbers, but about that in some DnD rulebook (or w/e you call them), there is told that "Gunpowder is rare" ... please note, that even if you multiplied the amount of gunpowder by a thousand ... on a global scale, it could still be quite rare. :-/

You stated, that you are not sure if game is "balanced aroung it or not" ...
I honestly dont understand this statement, and im affraid i never will ...
How exactly could be game "balanced around something" you can completely avoid and ignore? That dont makes any sence to me. :-/
I dont know how you define balancing ... but for me, balance any system "around something" means expect the players to use it every time ... and therefore adjust the game to the power level the player would achieve if he would use it every time.
If Barrels are as strong as you claim, that would mean you all who dont use them were playing hardcore version, and you were never suppose to manage to finish it. O_o Do you really believe that is the case?

You stated, that you feel like "your choices dont matter" ...
All i can say for this is: What about the choice not to use barrels?
Im sorry, existence of Barrels make you feel that ... i really am. But my sympaties is actualy the only thing i could offer you, since i simply believe that by making this *choice* your other choices would start to matter again. :-/

This is some(other)thing i just dont understand ...
If you really see Barrels as such cheat ... how about actual cheats in other games?
Is their existence ruining your experience? Does bother you that some guy, or kid in other side of the world is using cheats to make his character indesructible, and his weapons so powerful that he kills everything on map by single shot? ... Or do you just play your game, enjoy your encounters, and dont care at all that developers actualy had to implement those cheats in that game, since they do not appear on their own? :P
That is why i say: To live, and let live. wink

You stated, that "using barrels in every battle is boring" ...
I agree ... and that is why i dont do that.
Why cant you? O_o
Why the very existence of that option is bothering you?
That is what i would like to understand.

You stated, that "the amount of it feels like a DM constantly telling you to use his "fun" solution" ...
I have no idea what to tell you ... you are focusing on problem that dont exists, and that is bringing you this experience. :-/
Its sad, but you did this yourself. :-/


You stated, that you see "an oil barrel around every corner"
I believe i allready reacted on this statement allone ...
By listing all places where i remembered Barrels ... i cant find it so lets do that again:
- Single explosive in Nautiloid remains ... prepared there obviously to overcome this specific encounter for people who are still level 1 ... fun fact: this is actualy the one and only Barrel in whole Act 1 (meaning except Tutorial) that actualy fits to all your descriptions. laugh
- Single Barrel inside the Crypt ...
- 3 Barrels in Druid secret passage ... part of the trap set to protect the chest
- Single Barrel in entrance to Blighted Willage ... part of the trap, prepared by obviously ambushing Goblins
- Few (dunno, but certainly less than 5) in Blacksmith basement in Blighted Willage ...
- Dunno how many in storage-room in Selune temple (aka inside goblin camp) ... yes, there is many of them, but it have RP purpose you can find, when you listen goblin talking, all of them was bringed by Zhentarims. wink
- 2 Barrels in Halsin vs Goblins encounter room ...
- The secret passage to Gnolls encounter ... there are 3 if i remember corectly and they are set there as part of trap.
- And finaly Zhentarim hideout ... there is also quite a lot of them, on many places ... but since Zhentarims werea allready confrimed as group that is able to provide explosives from all around the world ... it kinda makes sence to me, that they will also use them. :-/

I dont remember any more ...
As far as i know, for example Underdark is free of them completely ... there are only flamable mushrooms, but you cant drag them anywhere. laugh

It might seem a lot at first sight ... but its not even half locations in game. :-/
Maybe not even third ...
So i would say that "around every corner" is a little too dramatic. :-/

You stated, that "its hard to ignore"
I simply cannot agree with this ... probably never.
Since i played the whole game multiple times, and i did ignored it COMPLETELY (read as: Never blown even single Barrel) ... so either im exceptionaly good, or it obviously IS not so hard. :-/
My money goes on second option.

You stated, that "Larian has a tendency to put in so many exploitable mechanics that aren't glitches, so you start wondering if you're supposed to use them, especially if you're having a hard time in a fight."
I didnt find any way to shorten this sentence without loose its meaning ...
I would say for this that this is first objectively good argument (in my eyes ofcourse), that i would agree on with you ... except that i dont care what Larian expects me to use, what i care is what i want to use ... and one of points of existence for Early Acess is show Larian what we wants to use, and if this game would even be playable for us while we use that. wink
At least, that is my point of view. smile
And since Larian keeps tuning all encounters based on what people do, and what people dont do, and where people have hard time, and where people dont ... i dare to say that im on right track. smile

You stated, that "people (even those who hate it) actually do want to use barrelmancy"
It certainly dont feel that way. laugh

You stated, that "but they want to feel clever for using it and it should be unique to a certain experience."
And i say they have that option.

You stated, that "this means making it more rare and as they've done add some sort of requirement for strength, because then your character choices matter again."
Requirement of strength is allready there ... its existence BTW, is the main (and possibly the only) reason for existence of this topic. laugh
And about rarity? Every player have option to make this experience as rare as he pleases ... it all in our hands. :-/
But im repeating myself again. -_-

And finaly ...
You stated, that "If it's too easy to do, it simply becomes a thing they won't allow themselves to use or it trivializes everything, rather than a cool option they could use once."
If they won't allow themselves to use it ... even tho they want to, and the fact that they didnt ruins their game ...
I would dare to say that they made wrong decision. :-/

As i said million times, and as i still keep believe:
Its all in our hands ...
You want to blow none Barrel > you can.
You want to blow single Barrel per game > you can.
You want to blow all Barrels in game > you can.

And THAT is the right way to do ... give us options, let us decide.
I thank Larian, for understanding this.

Originally Posted by Dabedidabe
That whole post is about it not being fun. It's not about forcing everyone to play my preferred way, it's about the designers creating the game in such a way that I can use every tool in the game to overcome the challenges without me having to arbitrarily decide which tools I do or do not use.
Please explain me the differnce. O_o

You demand to reduce amount of tools game gives you, so you can play with all of them all the time ... (note that you never use all of them, you allways have to choose ... there is no way to kill the same enemy simultanously with meele attack, ranged attack, all spell attacks, and explosive at the same time)
Instead of just here and there refuse to use some tool (preferably some you dont want to use in that particular case), to get exactly the same outcome. O_o
How is that "not forcing your prefered way"?

I demand to let tools as they are, so i can play with all of them (aka. they way i prefer) any time i want.

The beauty of curent system is that we both CAN (at least potentialy) get exactly the experience we want, no matter what experience we want, since all those OPTIONS are present ... we just have to learn to accept other person choices are not the same as ours ...
Dor example, i cant care less how do you engage Gith patrol ... do you care how i do? If not, that is promising start. wink laugh

Actualy this very topic, could work as quite acurate simulation ...
Note how many people get here only to tell us that they dont want us to talk about it anymore, they dont bring any new point of view, they dont even talk about topic anymore ... most of them dont even appear again. laugh
My question here would be: Why do they even care?
All they need to do, is simply stop reading this topic (personaly i just "mark as read" many of the topics around here, there is no need to read EVERYTHING ... i mean, unless you are moderator laugh ), there is countless others, that are obviously more interesting by their opinion since they never stoped there to tell people that their topic is irellevant for them ... but they *simply can't*, they feel this incredibly strong iressitable urge to come here and inform us that they dont like to read this ... there is no logic in such behaviour, except that they want to force us to behave as they want, they simply cannot stand the fact that there is someone do something they dont like, even if it dont affects them in any way ... nothing else. wink

As i said ... to live, and to let live. smile
Lets play on our own playground, and stop kick someone's else mud pie ... bcs its square, but we wanted them all to be round. laugh

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown