Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Racist Tropes on Drow STOP IT

In the last couple of years the news media and social media channels has been strongly acting agains tropes, work conditions, harrassments, gender discriminations on working place etc etc.

What happeneds then is that most people are going passionate about it. The social media channels going hot and debates are all over the place.
Nobody wants people to get hurt by such horrible conditions, behavior etc you name it.
For a Game in such times it can be devastating at release when people changed but the games content didnt reflect the change humanity to the better.
A game wont sell itself good an often enough to honor the work beeing put into it.
So with no further writing, i do link this article and you read yourself:

D&D’s Drizzt books were built...tore wants to change that. - Polygon.com

In my best hope, i suggest that all text in BG3 will be changed to reflect our humankinds best behavior.
Even when we are talking about games and play games, i am sure we can avoid having such discussions which end in a way that BG3 will be missunderstood and gets the worst rankings as a game,
because of said problems we face in reality and are currently all over the place in the newsmedia.
Recall the latest media fuzz babout UBIsoft, CDPR and now Activision Blizzards problems.
Then of course this article about Drizzt and Drow...

I would be very disspointed if BG3 wont be a success because the Dialogs, Cutscenes and Text have not been rechecked again.
Just to avoid a backlash on tropes and games again and the gaming community suffers again and Larian wont have success with BG3

We can do better ...
All wars are started with words.
So change words for peace and success of BG3.

You're so boring people.

I think you could also say the same thing for Orcs and Goblins as well as Klingons (space orcs) and Ferengi (space goblins).

I think one of the interesting changes that WoTC made was to take away "inherent" evil as a thing for prime material races. Inherent evil is now mostly a function of outsiders - Devils, Demons and Daemons.

The question is how do we utilize these canonical races in a way that "cleanes" them of the potential racist (or anti-sematic) imagery and backgrounds. I honestly don't have a good answer to that. I think it helps if when people are introduced to this sort of thing there is a degree of supplementation.

The Drow are in a bad situation with Lolth, but many are escaping and leaving that abusive relationship.

The Orcs are in an abusive relationship with Grummsh and suffer from having to scrape a living out of resource poor regions and endless pressure from more aggressive and invasive species that they constantly have to fight. However some Orcs escape the system.

The Goblins are slaves of Muglubiyet and have similar problems to the orcs, are not respected, have short lives and get stuck in cycles of destructive behavior. But some, again, escape.


This topic concerns me though - as well intentioned as these thoughts are - given the nature and history of these forums (and gamers) it is likely to attract knee-jerk reaction formation stuff, defensive rage, name-calling and other bad behavior instead of thoughtful conversation.

Sounds like censorship on writing because you can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Seek help.

It's a long running problem that needs to be addressed but it's not exactly going to be simple to do so, partially because a lot of it is just stuff that's "always been there" so it takes some effort to untangle it.

Tolkien did get inspired for the orcs by some of the history of the worst parts of the mongol hordes, but he also regretted making orcs and had a handful of exchanges where he out right shot down theories that orcs were "irredeemable" or "inherently" evil. Unfortunately, he wasn't around for the internet, so his objections to his writing being used as such went widely unnoticed and... well... the widespread interpretation of orcs and goblins became what they are.

My brother has a good comment on this: "if they're inherently evil, destructive monsters then they can't have a society... if they have a society they can't be inherently evil monsters" the comparison of the 5e gnolls is good here, given WotC has said that gnolls should probably be reclassed as fiends rather than humanoids. They're basically semi-autonomous extensions of Yeenoghu rather than individual creatures. They have no society, they just spread and kill, endlessly. That's it.

By comparison, orcs and goblins have ongoing societies. Drow have ongoing societies. Therefore, they cannot be inherently evil.

One complaint this gets is that the game needs simple enemies that you don't have to feel bad about fighting... and there's no reason you can't have it...

bandits are just as much faceless enemies to fight and kill and can be any of the lineages. The Guilded Age webcomic also did a good job with this by having a typical MMO style Horde vs Alliance thing but end up with the Horde and Alliance expies coming to peace...and during the story, had a doomsday cult that was drawing membership from all sides and all peoples.

D&D IS getting better... but it's a semi-large company... small on the overall scale, tiny really, but in terms of the hobby, it's huge. And bigger companies tend to move slower. Hence why the stuff D&D is being lauded for recently is stuff indie groups have been doing for over a decade. Just simple fact... the poor people involved in a project, the harder it is to get it to shift trajectory.

Also, we have to avoid the idea of "we finished it, we fixed it" because historically (at least in the States) we have a bad habit of doing a big visible thing and deciding "well that's done, we've fixed discrimination" and just stop and let matters fester until they get really bad again. This is a constant effort. Referring again to Tolkien, he pushed the boundaries on lots of tropes in his life, but it's not like he reached the finish line...and he made mistakes that we have to untangle in this generation.

Trying to untangle what is hurtful from what is neutral is a job and a half, and one requiring actual communication rather than people just unilaterally deciding what is and is not allowed. We need to talk to and include diverse voices. There will always be things that slip by, but again, communication is key. Talk with people and include them in discussion.

And thats the kind of conversation i wanted to kick off.

We Humans have to learn allways and try to get better.
And for this game i really like it to succeed without having to worry about tropes and other stupidities from the past decades in our modern world.

And for those guys who just read my lines and forgot to check the link to article, you dont need to judge, nobodys attacking your ways of believe, just fully inform yourself and be patient.
Maybe think about a better place this world could be in the coming years when everybody starts to realize that words can be weapons and therefore need to be used carefully.

For the community of people who enjoy a lot time in playing computergames i would really like to get rid of the typical view on us as beeing "nerdy" guys or the real hurter when games are made responsible for another Amok run.
Games are a place for relaxing time , to meet friends have fun and be overall connected with the same hobby we have.

I dont want to be a part of something which isnt able to learn and make things better.
I can learn to change and you can too.

PS: I play since i got my C64 around mid 80ies last century. so i played a lot of games until today.
There where a lot of Years where games were made responisble for every bad thing happened.
Games where forbidden for sometimes only showing pixels explode which wherent even really recognizable as humanoids without huge imagination.
Today you can see the most brutal executions in most every shooter or other similar games where you murder npc humans or other races in the thousands or millions sometimes in the goriest fashion you can imagine.
Still game can be released, not forbidden.
Today we look on the words, which is a sign that humans learn and change.

Just because you see the world in terms of race does not mean others will follow you. If I could make a suggestion study history and human culture more and you might find some good information. Fear of something is never the path forward. If your projecting reality onto fantasy you might want to find someone to talk to. They are not the same thing. Last time I checked Lolth was not trying to fight for control of my soul. If you would like to tell me otherwise well its popcorn time.

Don't feed the trolls people. They are inherently evil

Any type of reality is probably racist by nature.

The SUPER CRINGE "racial tensions" we have in our real world, are a complete joke compared to what is going on in Faerun.
A realm that has actual different Races and not just different ethnicitys.
Racism is part of this worlds REALITY.

Removing it is the same as breaking the entire universe.
So no - the racism must stay.
Going Woke never ends well.


I expect the threadopener to already know what I have written and just being so bored that he wrote his openingpost just for trolling purposes.

Just to be sure ...
Do that person really suggest to rework whole game, so it only contains the best behaviour humanoids can provide? O_o

Bcs im affraid i cannot even imagine such thing.

Couple of things here.

There are very real issues in real life that should not be dismissed, are part of a long history of building tragedy on tragedy and are heavily tangled into everyday things. It's a serious subject matter.

The existence of different species of beings does not automatically justify people hating each other over differences.

And there is a big difference between representing the existence of racism within the fiction of the universe and building the game and setting itself embedded with concepts that support the sort of thinking that racism has merit.

Certainly you can have a long history of elves and orcs hating each other, that's historically represented in our own existence. But you shouldn't present it as a natural thing that is inherent or can never be amended. The gods in this setting are individuals and characters, not vaguely distant forces that may or may not exist... and the gods are not infallible. Corellon and Gruumsh pushing their personal grudge onto their followers as an example. Again, real life has lots of examples of a feud between two people resulting into a bloody conflict between groups.

The setting can have racism, especially if you want to explore that story arc, but it by no means needs it.

Plus you have things like the Barbarian class.

Barbarian is not a statement describing a skill set, it is a cultural term and it is a term used for a foreign culture in a demeaning fashion... and it's modern use is overwhelming that mode insult. Add to that the art for "Barbarian" is a mix of First Nations and Viking stereotypes along with a mix of other low tech cultures.

You can certainly have people with the skill-set of the class from any culture, not just low-tech cultures, and yes, you can build such a character if you want, but the fact that all the art and characterization of the class is that is an example of things that encourage real world bad behavior.

Likewise, the treatment as goblins and orcs as always savage or cowardly or sneaky or whatever else is equally damaging. It's the "this is their natural state" part of depictions that is harmful. It can be the culture that has developed, but it shouldn't be represented as the only possible way they could exist.

No, you can't control what is done in a home game, but you shouldn't encourage or turn a blind eye to such things, because some asshole will take it as tacit approval for such behavior.

"It's what my character would do" "my alignment says I should kill orcs" etc....

It's minor in comparison to people literally getting killed unnecessarily, but it's still a problem... and it scares off possible newcomers to the hobby.

When you publish, you have to be careful over how you might encourage people to behave.

I honestly can't tell if the OP is a troll. Unironically posting a Polygon article about how the Drizzt books are racist, even though Drizzt himself is literally proof that Drow aren't necessarily bad, makes me think they are.

In the off-chance this isn't a troll, why is it racist if a society that largely worships a demon spider god is generally not good-aligned?

Look if you're just full of shame because of how you think "nerds" are perceived, that's honestly your personal problem to deal with, not anyone else's. Don't demand others change what they like in order to suit your own wants.

And yes, this line of logic is no different from "video games cause mass shootings". Just replace Jack Thompson going on about "mass shootings" with "racism" and there you have your logic. There's no proof that Drow being generally evil makes people more racist. And as long as that is the case, you are not being a moral person for demanding writers change their work.

Do you know that, or are you just saying it? Because I never once heard someone say they don't like Conan the Barbarian because of the word "barbarian".

Yeah, I'm not completely positive of the OP either, I only engaged when other people responded.

In the case of Lloth, Lloth is a homicidal manipulator and people following her are no better, but again, there's a difference between depicting X society as horrible vs depicting X species as horrible. Like no one is going to take Thay as proof all humans are evil because there's plenty of non-horrible humans. But drow, orcs, and goblins have a problem that they have very little diversity of culture depicted.

Personally, I find default Lloth sort of boring, she plays sims with her worshippers and likes just getting them killed for her amusement. I am much more interested in Vhaerun and Eilistraee whose followings are still simple fantasy semblances of real cultures, but are significantly more nuanced than Lloth's following.

The current plan I've seen with drow is to portray a few other side cultures that are not Lloth-oriented.

I'd similarly like to see a thing like that for Goblins and Orcs... displaying some settlements of Goblins that aren't part of Maglubiyet's dominance or aren't buying into Gruumsh and co's crusade.

Again, there's a difference between portraying the existence of racism in a fictional setting and in building a setting toward racist philosophies.

The entire point of the term "Barbarian" is because he came from nothing and is a insult leveled at him. It's not an expression of his skill. It's an expression of his origins. And it's a "rags to riches" type story.

With a large dose of Howard's "they called him Barbarian, but really they were the inferior ones" attitude.

How about we have demons and devils who aren't evil too? Why can't we have a society of demons who don't live in the abyss and don't want to take anyone's souls? Must they be forever defined by Orcus? Having demons only be evil is so lazy and boring!

You didn't answer my question.

This is covered. Fiends and Celestials are creatures of elemental nature not mortal. It even states in the PHB in the section on Alignment that if a Fiend stopped being Evil it would stop being a Fiend.

Also, most, probably all, fiends were formerly mortals. They're just mortals that so consistent chose hatred, selfishness, violence, and destructive attitudes that it became their entire being. And it's not irreversible. It's just EXTREMELY unlikely that a soul that got so full of hate and poison would choose to even try to turn things around.

So, the moment a Fiend became something other than evil it would be come something else.

The most stand out point of this is where one of the Archdevils used to be a Celestial. She's not one anymore because she stopped being a pure expression of Good. She's now a fiend.

Similarly, a Fiend that stopped being Evil would become something else... perhaps a Fey or a Celestial... or perhaps even a mortal... that's a decent Tiefling origin that comes with a lot of interesting story baggage.


Basically... Being a celestial or fiend isn't a species... it's a metaphysical condition.

So if I told you that Drow are not necessarily evil and if one simply chose not to worship Lolth they wouldn't be predisposed to evil at all, you'd be totally cool with how Drow are presented, like you're cool with how demons are?

EDIT: It should be said through that Asmodeus isn't a Celestial and never was. At least in 2e, he was one of the serpents which created the universe and posed as a celestial for a time after his fall. And your suggestion that a demon may transform into something else if its alignment changes is not, as far as I'm aware, how it works in Forgotten Realms.