Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Final Grove Fight SPOILERS!

OK. So, I've said this before somewhere, but it needs repeating since I've just gotten to this part in Patch 5.

I saved Halsin, but I did so by getting Minthara to take an army to the Grove to attack it. Halsin says, "I'll help you, but first you must help rescue the Grove. I'll meet you back there. Hurry!"

I get back to the grove and try to recruit the Druids. They have their stone door shut and refuse to open it for anyone. So, I saved Halsin but he isn't able to get back in time to help lead his people to fight FOR the grove to save it, and I have no way of persuading them to help defend the Grove.

So that's my first issue with this part. If I save Halsin and have a fast travel way to get back to the Grove, why can't I keep him in my party, he helps me kill Ragzlin and the goblins in the camp, and then we go together to the Grove? Then he helps recruit the druids to defend the gate.

My second issue is that I dethroned Kagha. So, I proved she was a Shadow Druid and became a hero to them. I return and am going to defend the Grove. Why would I not be able to persuade them to defend the gate? Surely some druids at least would side with me and help fight to the death.

My third issue is that I tried sneaking into the inner chamber where the druids were during this part, and instead of even letting me chat with them or try to reason with them in person, they attack me. So, not only do they not help me fight against the goblins at all, they are completely hostile towards me even though I've helped save their grove from Shadow Druids and I am returning after killing a HUGE number of goblins in the Goblin Camp including 2 of their leaders.

Seems to me we should be able to rally the druids as well to help defend the gate and protect the people within.

Finally, I also think that there needs to be more goblins at the gate attacking it in this final fight. I'm sorry, but they left more goblins at the camp than Minthara took with her to try to kill the inhabitants of the Grove. Especially if she was wanting to ensure she captured my party and the Gith weapon, don't you think she'd be like, "Nope! I'm taking most of the goblins in the camp and we're going to attack the gate.

I fully expected her to clear the camp out and I'd have a much smaller fight when leaving after killing Ragzlin. Nope. I step out the door of the inner base after killing Ragzlin and had the fight of my life.

GREAT FIGHT, by the way. It was the best in the game and lots of fun. Good mix of regular goblins and some Absolute Marked. Also, an ogre, bugbears, Andrick and Brynna. Half of them were totally drunk and the other half only partially. It was TONS of fun. LONG as a BUTTCHEEK but it was like an epic climactic battle ought to be. My 4 Level 4 characters slaughtered, I think, 20 total enemies in one battle. Good times. The slowness, I think, was that the AI slowed down considerably. If the AI hadn't slowed down, and if it hadn't glitched over and over again from characters randomly coming close and moving away (or my favorite, a Bugbear was frightened by Menacing Attack and actually teleported somehow up onto the upper levels some 500 feet away. Not sure how that happened, but...).

Anyway, the epic fight should be either the goblin camp, if you don't send Minthara away and you have to kill all the goblins after you kill Ragzlin, OR it should be at the Druid Grove Gate fighting against 20=30 goblins and Minthara in a huge epic battle to save everyone (or betray them if you are evil). The goblin camp fight shouldn't be tougher and more climactic than the battle at the druid grove gate if that's the path you're taking.

And one last thing about this, you definitely shouldn't be able to Fast Travel after killing Ragzlin. If the entire camp is now hostile to you, you should either have to make your way into the Underdark until you find the Fast Travel point down there, or you should have to fight your way out. I can even, kinda, see you doing a short rest, since you could barricade the doors, but not Fast Travel. There's no real way to sneak out.

OK. To add to this, the Final Grove Gate Fight is also now even easier because the ogres don't barrel throw the goblins up onto the wall. I pummeled the crap out of them from the top of the gate and blew them up so easily. Then, they were so stupid, a sapper got close to the gate and blew himself up, along with the ogre, the boss goblin, and half a dozen others INCLUDING MINTHARA! She didn't die, but she took substantial damage.

The fight's a mess instead of being one of the most epic fights in the game. This particular one needs revamping again. It's slow AI, glitches all over, AI makes stupid choices, Minthara doesn't do much but enhance her troops until they are all dead, and, again, we just blow them up and beat the crap out of them until they die. The worst enemies are the Sword Spiders. One of them killed one of the Tieflings. Oh no! Not 1 Tiefling when I killed like 22 goblins and Minthara!

I'm just saying, Minthara needs some help on this fight. It's just too easy.

I think it needs more goblins, more Tieflings and Druids, and Minthara needs a MUCH better plan to win it.

If you're afraid of AI slowdown, because it was already slow, maybe have the goblins attack in waves or something. There's gotta be some way to make it more fun.

It was odd for Halsin to run straight back to grove, but appear only after the combat is finished. I guess in spite of the apperance he is just a big coward .

I'm thinking the fight should begin at the gate. Minthara holds back and lets her minions throw themselves at it. It seems like the heroes are winning. Maybe only 5 of Minthara's troops are standing...

Minthara smiles and calls in the second wave. Twenty more troops show up. Some are going through the secret tunnels, but most charging the gate. An ogre throws an explosive barrel at the gate, blowing it open if it isn't yet. More sword spiders arrive.

You have a choice. Keep fighting to hold the gate or fall back to where the rest of the Druid and Tiefling forces are, near Arron's merchant stand. They've set up a barricade there. Several druids are sent to defend the secret tunnels.

But if you didn't expose Kagha, no druids help you. 😈 Enemies come from behind after several rounds, coming in from the secret tunnels. Now the grove is being overrun. Some enemies are trying to get at the kids. What will you do?

If Batman can have Robin - who is basically a child wearing bright red and yellow - as a bullet sponge, then I can use tiefling children for the same.

@GM4Him That a very scripted sequence. Something Bioware would do, especially in later titles, but for one I do like that Larian does allow for certain things to play out systematically - like not holding the gate will be result of gate getting destroyed during gameplay, rather then a scripted progression of battle which has to play out.

I do think it would be nicer if we could retreat to druids, if it is not an option already, forsake tieflings, and fight battle deeper in the grove.

Totally agree with OP ...
Not so much with the rest, the finale of scripted fight seem a little too much for Larian standards ... and honestly i dont even know if i like it. O_o

But Halsin certainly SHOULD be part of that Siege ... IF he was allready saved.
So should Kagha and at least one or two other druids (i would say at least Nettie, and/or Rath), IF she was redeemed ... otherwise only Rath and/or Nettie.

It just make sence. :-/
It would also make sence that Minthara would take much more goblins with her ... and therefore they should miss in their camp. Its suppose to be siege for anyones sake ... lets make it feel like siege! :3

Oh no. Don't get me wrong. I don't want scripted either. I am really just saying there needs to be more pazzaz. Right now, it falls flat. I actually liked the fight better before when ogres were lobbing goblins up onto the wall in barrels. THAT was a good example of barrelmancy done well. They need to do something like that for this fight. That made it SO much harder to ward off enemies.

That's a whole lot of work for a fight that a lot of people will never even see though. Once they stop the ai being derpy, which they will, it'll be better. no need to make it a cutscene spectacle. we have quite enough cutscene spectacles in this game as it is -.-*

+1 for more flair. Doesn't have to be scripted. Larian have shown they can direct the flow of battles via dialogue on the nautiloid where Lae'zel and the mindflayer give instructions mid battle depending on what you do, and in the first grove attack where the goblin leader tells the other goblins what to do. They could do a similar thing with Minthara's siege, with Tav, Kagha, Tav's companions, Lia Rolan and Cal, Halsin, and Zevlor all giving tactical orders to Tav, or to each other, which will push the fight along without it being scripted.

Say a second wave of goblins manage to breach the gate, on Zevlor's turn he gives orders to the tieflings to retreat to the lower levels near his cave. On Kagha/Halsin's turn, they give orders for most of the druids to retreat to the path leading to the inner grove, while some stay to secure/disable the elevator. This then creates the possibility for a two-pronged battlefield near Arron's camp, with each faction on either side. Then, on Tav's companions turns, they each voice their opinion on what they should do in the same way they do on the nautiloid. Astarion suggests they flee to the caves in case they need to retreat safely - let the druids die who cares. Wyll suggests they stick with the tieflings and protect the children. Gale suggests they ensure the idol is protected for spoiler reasons. Etcetera etcetera.

Larian doesn't actually have to force the player to do anything with scripted cutscenes, though they could add a gate-breaching cutscene if they wanted to in order to allow the player to agree with either or none of the options being suggested to them. The player would be free to pursue their own tactics and strategy, while Minthara sends in droves of goblins. She would be barking orders at them too, with waves of goblins, orcs, worgs and spiders proportional to the amount posted at the ruined temple of Selune and the abandoned village.

I think this would make that battle MUCH more fun. Currently, the goblins and Minthara seem more focused on killing the druids/Tav's party than fulfilling their actual goal which is finding the Gith artifact and claiming the Idol of Sylvanus. They don't use the secret tunnels that they KNOW exist already, they don't have scouts sneaking to where the bugbear assassin was located to use the elevator for a quick way down to the inner grove, they throw all of their goblinpower at the people on the frontlines rather than using already-established strategies to fulfill their directive. Needing to stretch your party across the several ways of being 'beaten' rather than just lumping everyone together at the front gate would make this fight incredible imo.

EDIT: I'd also add that I think they should push for this fight to be the ideal/most common progression of the questline. Have Zevlor or a partymember suggest subterfuge to lure the goblins out wayyyy earlier than speaking to Minthara. OR better yet, have the siege be a guaranteed consequence of not being quick enough to deal with the goblins. As it stands, doing nothing means the goblins never attack the grove, yet the game impresses a feeling of such urgency since they 'could attack at any minute'. Scrap that. The game already measures 'time' via turns, 6 realtime seconds = one in-game turn, when not in TBM. I'm not good with maths so I'm unsure of how many turns would be a good/fair amount, but say, like, 3000 turns into the game, which I think would be 5 real-time hours, the siege triggers no matter what. I think that would be really cool. I think 5 hours is a fair amount of time, and then the game could really back up their 'race against the clock' theme. Have goblin scouts show up on the road outside the camp more often. SHow the player that they are preparing to attack as soon as Minthara gets a whiff of its location.

I love that last series of ideas.

Especially because it allows for more opportunities to set up variables before the battle begins. Various things happening or perhaps not, based on how the PC responds to the advice being barked. More dynamism in the set up, so that instead of having 1 or 2 set-piece battles, you end up with maybe a dozen different ways those battles can crack off before they even start. Depending on who you saved, or killed, or ignored and such along the way. I felt like they should have done something of that sort with the minor skirmishes or trash mobs, by including more monster variety from a random table there. But it would be even cooler to see them take that kind of variable approach to the major climactic fight of the first act.

It's just such a nice set up with two bases, and two factions (each with a splinter element) and pretty much every NPC could jump into it differently depending on what the player did or didn't do, or in what sequence.

Also just to the idea of having a different battle plan based on Gobbos acquiring the artifact or capturing the idol, and the Zevlor subterfuge angle, or shadowdruid Halsin refugee stuff. Another way they could play that up on the Goblin side, would be to have Minthara go inquisitor during her initial convo with the party, and perhaps the PC can feed false info there that puts the battle on a different footing based on convo responses. They have a little of this going on right now, but it could be much more developed. This could happen at several points throughout the first act actually, where the ultimate battle positioning may at first appear randomized, but is actually based on a convo-choice matrix. Like perhaps the tunnel thing only happens if the party saves Sazza, but if not then they end up somewhere else? Or like you mentioned with the Bugbear assassin, doing similar things for everyone that might be a participant in the battle. Especially for the main character NPCs, or merchant types, the one's that are highlighted most in the story. The more interaction an NPC char has with the party, the more likely they are to play a variable type role in the big main fight. Surely anyone that followed the party at some point, and didn't die, would be a great candidate for a battle showcase. Maybe even Us makes a return appearance? That would be cool.

Doesn't need to be cutscenes at that point (since those have already happened), it could just be in the nuts and bolts of the combat set up and some clutch barks and flashy entrances. That kind of variability would be more interesting to me than even a really beautifully scripted type battle, just because it would open up the replay and keep the player guessing at each play through, because minor changes would occur. Especially when the matrix of outcomes for prepositioning or battle order/location has more inputs and gets large enough, such that it becomes practically impossible for the player to predict how the main battle set up will actually look on any given playthrough. Or at least the main battle then becomes like a crazy complex puzzle for the player to pick apart. I don't know if they would go with that kind of approach, since most of the encounters so far have been done in the set-piece style, but it would certainly make for a great D&D campaign with a lot of replay value.

Yeah, I'm just saying, there is SO much more they could do with this scene. I don't want them to necessarily steer anyone, because that's one of the things that makes this game awesome. There are so many paths and outcomes.

But I feel like it is underwhelming. The fight in the goblin camp was much more intense. That was a true epic conclusion fight. Goblins were coming at me from everywhere. Spellcasters on the walls and archers and an ogre and bugbears... 😌

What I want to see is something similar in this fight. I get that you don't want to have like 30 gobbos, 15 tieflings, 15 druids and your party all fighting at the gate. That would be one huge fight that would be slow and long.

That's why I think it would be cool if they broke it up AND if Minthara showed a bit more tactical prowess. There are actually 3 ways into the grove besides the riverfront where you do the harpy fight. The gate is 1, the secret tunnels 2, and the waterfall area near where you meet Ed and his siblings.

So, things need to make some sense. Why doesn't Minthara use at least 2 of those ways? Why don't the druids even try to defend their own grove ESPECIALLY if Kagha was dethroned?

So, I suggest some smaller cutscenes to explain this. Druids fighting goblins in the tunnels to defend them. Goblins trying to climb in to the caves near the waterfall. The bulk of the Tieflings fighting them off with bows and spears. Goblins coming by boats along the river and animals jumping them and tearing them apart.

Oh, and make it a NIGHT SCENE. So much more awesome by night. Think Helms Deep.

Then, you are trying to hold the gate with a few others against goblins and an ogre and sword spiders and Minthara. And bring back the ogre barrel tossing with goblins. That was SO much more challenging and fun. That was a great use of that. Also, why doesn't Minthara take ALL her spiders? If not throwing goblin barrels we need more spiders then to really make it exciting.

Long/short. I should be fighting desperately to save the grove with Minthara being a boss and kicking butt. I should maybe even have to fall back to deeper in the grove to gain more allies and/defend the children and parents.

Basically, we just need more here.

At night!

For sure! Way more awesome! Haha

Plus no self respecting Goblin wants to attack at first light, or high noon. Make it just after the sun goes down, so the fireworks can be much more intense.

Then, when the party reaches the inner Grove (if the battle ends up going that way) have a full on thunderstorm, with thick sheets of rain and lightning crashes and the river on the rise! Just going full on epic with it, when the levee breaks, leaning into the best clichés for a Druid grove climax.

Depending on what happens beforehand, perhaps Kagha or Halsin awakens the grove and that starts all kinds of wild shit cracking off? It'd be kinda disappointing if this is like the only real druid grove action we get, before moving along to the Underdark and the Towers and such, without playing up that idea to the fullest. It seems like it would be more fun staged out like that, rather then just a big cascading thing that goes on forever in the same couple spots with most of the same peeps involved each time.

Also, have Scratch do something heroic at a clutch moment. He could get into the fray as a temp follower during the climax, (obviously he shouldn't die, just have him yelp and run off if defeated) but that would be another nice touch.

I just add ...
That if you (for any reason) kill that 3 Tieflings that are guarding the gate, nobody will EVER notice ... raid will go without you ... litteraly whole groove will be massacred, and you get no chance to prevent it.