Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Elves are not Elven - Tel-quessir feed back ;)

Re: "fat" elves. This is an interesting enough tangent, so I'll bite.

It has always been implied if not infrequently mentioned that elves have a perfect metabolism and perfect or near-perfect hygiene. I accept that elfs are essentially universally slender because there has never been - at least as far as Dungeons & Dragons is concerned - a consistent depiction of elfs featuring the odd overweight specimen. At best, an elf may be somewhat muscular in the same way a world-class archer, sprinter or swimmer is muscular.

I found this picture on another RPG forum. Apparently, that is supposed to be Aerie. Eh? As far as Baldur's Gate is concerned, "redone" art of Aerie and/or Jaheira is nothing new (apparently, some folks find them too elven). However, this piece in particular truly takes the cake; it is an especially pertinent representation of elves being humanized to the point where they're no longer seen as elves.

When it comes to this topic, between consumers and companies...who is the chicken and who is the egg?

All I can say is, elves are supposed to be beautiful. Many "elfish" depictions do not seem beautiful or attractive to me. They seem exotic, but definitely not what I would call attractive.

I think making elves a bit more human makes them prettier. However, at the same time, ot does wind up making them jist look like humans with pointy ears.

The point is, there's a fine line, and it has to be hard to walk it as a game designer. You want people to actually LIKE the character models, so you need to be careful not to male them too elvish or many will think they are unattractive.

I know people out here have mixed feelings about Solasta, and that's not what this comment is about. This comment is about how Solasta did NOT do models well. It was one of the biggest cringes for me with that game. I have a hard time liking my characters because they just don't look particularly awesome to me. Elves look a bit more elfish, maybe, but they just aren't attractive. There's maybe one face I kinda liked and maybe a few hairstyles.

So my point is, it's hard to do models well. BG3 has given us some elf characteristics but not entirely elfish appearances. Although having a bit more elfish appearances might be nice, I'd rather have them err in the direction they chose than Solasta's. Give me models I enjoy. Even if they don't fit certain molds, at least its better than having models I can't hardly stand.

As I said (several posts back), two fingers - a finger per ear - and *boom*...the elf is gone . Personally, I prefer elves that look more elfin than human; if nothing else, that decision helps to decrease the perceived "uncanny valley" effect that is only reinforced by lack of exposure. There absolutely is a happy median between "human" and "edgy gaunt abomination".

Thankfully, it appears as though most people here agree that Half-Elves shouldn't one-up their full-blooded brethren when it comes to fey characteristics.

Thank you. Well whatever fine. I care less about how tall they are anyway and yes Humans are not taller then Elves that is crap I will not accept.
Of course there are some invidual exceptions. Example the Barbarian Human Wulfgar was described as very tall in R. A . Salavatore books.
Of course some humans and some Elves are taller then the average height and some are shorter.

I care about this hehee:
Well so please Elves as OP or say LOTR Elves.

Fine Legolas is not High Elf race I stand corrected and I never said I am ULTRA GURU on Tolkien. However Legolas in LOTR movies is supernatural and overpowerful to KINGDOM COME! I would say Legolas in LOTR movies is their best Elf Archer (at least from what was shown in the movies). You can not compare him to supernatural Gandalf that won a Balrog Demon (or was at least not defeatad by the Demon that Demon fell together with Gandalf) and Gandalf is not Elf race. Well and High Elf Queen Galadriel is very powerful and if she would have taken artifact One Ring I believe she would instead of Sauron become a dark Evil ruler.

Same deal for AD&D 2e (the pencil-and-paper roleplaying system that forms the basis of most Infinity Engine games).


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Take that up with TSR and Wizards of the Coast. Across all of Dungeons & Dragons, elves tend to be shorter than humans. Once again, you're equating Dungeons and Dragons to The Lord of the Rings when the latter source is just one of many inspirations for the former.

Elves will always be taller in my head too, also realize that there are apparently some discrepancies between PHB and the FR around which are 'common' elves and 'high' elves. I'm not a tolkein guru either but I think what you're talking about are the murkwood elves and the Rivendel elves, who are depicted quite differently from each other. I might remember some discussion around them being influenced by the corrupted woods too. Which just says to me, don't be too precious about the details. I'm happy as long as there are Elves that represent that otherworldly (somewhat angelic) ideal. Which is very much a Tolkienism, otherwise all fey would be hobbit-looking sharp toothed goblins.

I have played many years Dungeons Dragons pen and paper and more then one edition of DnD not to mention computer games:
BG1 , BG2, Icewind Dale games that are AD (or second edition of Dnd).
Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 DnD 3.0 and Dnd 3.5
Neverwinter MMO while Action combat is more or less adaption of DnD 4th edition.
Pathfinder (the first Pathfinder game that is fully released).
Solasta and BG3 Early Access that both are Dnd 5th edition.

I have had over 10 Gamemasters in Dungeons Dragons Pen and Paper sessions. None of them have told me in any Dnd session that humans are taller then Elves. You can think whatever you want and I do not care if you think Elves are clearly shorter then humans.

I do not generally read books nowadays. When I read Tolkien books it was indeed very long time ago and Hobbit book I read as I was a child. For me today I find movies and TV series more interesting then books.
The Lord of the Rings (Hobbit movies less good then LOTR movies) stand to this day to me as best inspiration of movies with Elves and not simple one inspiration among others.
While I find author R.A.Salvatore very good among DnD Forgotten Realms authors I still find Tolkien as number one fantasy author he kind of started it in a big way.

The first depiction of elves were more akin to faeries in myths and folklore. A blending of Germanic mythology and English folklore with Celtic folklore is what inspired JRR Tolkien the <modern> mainstream elf look (giving them a more humanoid look) we all know today and from which was adapted by writers, games etc...Slender, tall and beautiful. Though there are some very few mid 19th century Swedish art that depicts humanoid <elves>.

Yes this is true. I have no argument against this. While earlier adaption of Elves was made Tolkien kind of made Elves very popular first with books and then with movies based on his books. Now they are even making a TV series based on Tolkien world, but I can not know if that series will be even good and in worst case that TV series will be a disappointment.

Why is this so important?

Human 4'8" +2d10 110 lb. × (2d4) lb.
Dwarf, hill 3'8" +2d4 115 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Dwarf, mountain 4' +2d4 130 lb. × (2d6) lb.
Elf, high 4'6" +2d10 90 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Elf, wood 4'6" +2d10 100 lb. × (1d4) lb.
Halfling 2'7" +2d4 35 lb. × 1 lb.

I could roll snake eyes and a human is what, 4'10". I could roll 20 for an elf and have an elf that is 6'2". According to the rules, you can have some elves taller than some humans and vice versa. Is it really that big of a deal?

That is exactly problem i have with BG-3 models ...

Why do you think that most common tav look like this?
My gues will be its not bcs Larian provided us "many good looking faces"

But im a perfectionist in character creation matter ... that is why i would love to have options to set ears separately from head.
Sometimes face is kinda good ... but then i see the ears and im like "oh f**k no way". :-/

As many others in this topic ...
You get my +1

Whether you played with ten DMs, one-hundred DMs or one-thousand DMs is immaterial; they probably read the official racial stats and ignored them or - more likely - they skipped them entirely...and that's okay. If you - personally - want to play your D&D elves as statuesque Nordic sylvan supermodels, go right ahead. All I did was point to the canon/core figures of a particular tabletop roleplaying game. Should you wish to assert the contrary until you're blue in the face, you're welcome to do so as well. Odds are, the printed books and PDFs will remain unchanged at the end of the day.

Anyhow, I'll not feed into the Tolkien sermon any further, but I will end my involvement by pointing out a few facts.



Roughly forty-five years later, that initial seed of inspiration which was planted during D&D's creation has clearly grown into its own unique specimen. Carry on.

Ragitsu you have claimed falsely that Humans have always been taller then Elves in DnD.
Can you not read this please:
From there one can see Wizards of the Coast changed in 5e that Elves are shorter by 0,2 so very little shorter and I dont know about 4h edtion and then since Pathfinder is evolved from DnD 3.5 I suspect very strongly they use that Dnd 3.5 heights in Pathfinder.

I will happily ignore the new Dnd 5th height tables absolutely and use the height in Dnd 3.5 and Pathfinder

That is not all in BG3 I did not like the default green color for skin for my Wood Elf so I changed skin color and eye color to typical Tolkien type Elf there you go.
Right now there are yet no so many mods, but rest assure I would use some mods that would make some forum members roll their eyes hehee not likely to modify my character if my character is a male.

Well and in Pen and Paper I have often told my height to GM who have said ok. Well not that I have said example 7 feet tall and I have never created an extreme tall character in DnD well not to mentions sometimes I have created a dwarf and dwarves are not tall.

I don´t know about rest of Europe or USA or Canada, but in my country Finland in Europe of Dnd systems Pathfinder is most popular in Pen and Paper and not DnD 5th. That said Dnd 5th is more popular in my country then the infamous and hated Dnd 4th edition that I consider the worst Dnd edition released.
Personally I am not so Pathfinder only fan and I could say yes to Pathfinder or Dnd 5th edition Pen and Paper session, but I would say no to DnD4th edition session. Due to COVID 19 remote play has become very popular. Nowadays computer software to make that happen is used people use Discord and other software you can have voice communication from distance and some even use webcamera and very visual presentation you can see what GM choose to show including also Dnd tactical grid maps for combat and visual pictures of monsters.
All that has a bit learning curve and not saying GM would be super easy.

Well and this sounds I play often Pen and Paper? No I play very rarely and one can do short campaign and one can take years of break or quit totally.

No, DnD 3,5 and Pathfinder 1e did not use the same racial statistics. Pathfinder generally modified a lot on player races.

You are correct.

I checked now.
In DnD 3.5 humans and Elves same height.
Pathfinder Elves crystal clear taller then humans. Even the Drow the shortest Elf race is taller then Humans.

Dnd 4th edition which I truly HATE now for these reasons:
A. Most complicated rules and combat can take long time. This Dnd version is most difficult for a newbie to learn. Well Pathfinder can be equally challenging to learn, but if you have played Dnd 3.5 before then Pathfinder is easier to learn then DnD4th edition. This coming from me WOW MMO veteran I understood immediately Hunters Mark and stuff borrowed from WOW MMO to DnD 4th edition.
B. They removed lots of dice rolling and boring calculated this heals % of your total hitpoints crap.
C. In DnD 4th edtion Humans very clearly are taller then Elves.
D. Someone said the World and lore not good well can not judge this I was so annoyed by rules so have never played this
except Nevewinter MMO but that is Action Combat and adaption of DnD 4th edition rules and during levelup I looked at guides from Internet.
NEUTRAL: This I do not find negative or specially positive, but Dnd borrowed elements from World of Warcraft MMO example for Ranger Hunters Mark
spell that is directly copied from WOW MMO. On the other hand WOW MMO have borrowed much fantasy ideas from Tolkien and DnD world.

DnD 5th edition.
A. Rules simplified from DnD4th edition. Easier for a newbie to learn, understand and faster gameplay.
B. Dice rolls added back and stupid % things removed.
C. The difference between Elves and Humans now less then in Dnd 4th or Pathfinder... Humans 0.2 average heigth taller.
Well this C is not COMPLETE correction of Elf height, but at least better then the crap DnD4th edition.
NEUTRAL: The elements borrowed from WOW MMO example Hunters Mark for Ranger spell is still in Dnd 5th edition, but I am ok with this.

Ragitsu your statment that Elves have always been shorter in Dnd is complete garbage. Ok Drow race might separately be shorter, but not the other Elf races.

I will ignore any GM saying I must have short Elf if i say in pen and paper session my Elf is 6 feet tall then GM must accept or I can say sorry I will not play with you

Well and since in my country Finland (in Europe) Pathfinder is clearly most popular DnD played nowadays guess what Elves are tall hehee.
Well and DnD 5th edtion is not bad or rare in Finland though second after Pathfinder and I could say yes also to a Dnd 5th edition pen and paper session. Well and the only Dnd version that I hate is Dnd 4th edition that is the most hated Dnd version in my country.

To summarize, everyone has a different concept of what elves should look like, how tall they should be, etc. Therefore, if Larian could provide some additional model options that are more elfish for those who want and prefer more elfish features, AND if they provided the ability to adjust height and build, I think this would satisfy everyone on this thread. Don't take away anything for those who enjoy current models. Just add a few with more elfish, fey features and do the height/body adjust thing.

Does that pretty much satisfy the masses?

No. Because that won't address the problem with NPCs. It's hard to tell elf NPCs from humans at the moment. To the point that... do you remeber 2 guys near Dror Ragzlin? One of them drow and another one is human with guite delicate facial features. I needed to look closer at his ears to realise that he's NOT an elf! Bacause at the moment the game taught me that elfs are just like that: same bodies, just more delicate faces and pointy ears.

Perfect!

My nonexistent quote? Go ahead and fetch it. I can wait.