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At least we have something to talk about meanwhile. :P
And who knows? Maybe someone in Larian will find inspiration here. laugh


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Originally Posted by Zellin
You guys are making fuss over nothing
Haha. Sorry about that. I like being fussy smile.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/08/21 01:46 PM.
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Making it an active ability like battlemaster abilities is the correct way.

I want to select it and feel the impact when it connects. Hitting someone and then using Smite afterwards to do damage again sounds lame, sorry. Almost as lame as Solasta freezing the action mid-animation. You just don't do that.

Combat needs to feel satisfying with impact instead of feeling like a spreadsheet where everything is calculated so correctly by the rules.

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I honestly feel like the only problem with the way Solasta did reaction (if you would even consider it a problem at all, and I'm sure a lot of people won't) is in its presentation. I don't know if it's a good example, but I think the reason why a game like persona 5 can still have turn based combat while still being super popular for a jrpg is because of its style.


Larian's Biggest Oversight, what to do about it, and My personal review of BG3 EA
"74.85% of you stood with the Tieflings, and 25.15% of you sided with Minthara. Good outweighs evil, it seems."
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Originally Posted by Abits
I honestly feel like the only problem with the way Solasta did reaction (if you would even consider it a problem at all, and I'm sure a lot of people won't) is in its presentation. I don't know if it's a good example, but I think the reason why a game like persona 5 can still have turn based combat while still being super popular for a jrpg is because of its style.
Yeah. That's what I've been saying for weeks and I repeated in this same thread.

The interruption/request for confirmation in itself is not a big deal, but it needs to be presented in a "sleek" manner to be palatable to a certain audience.
A rectangular pop-in with "USE REACTION Y/N?" in the middle of the screen is not a good fit, and to keep asking Larian to do that would just be counter-productive.

On a side note, Persona 5 (and Persona as a franchise in general) is popular relatively to its genre, it's not that much of a heavy hitter in a more general sense.

Last edited by Tuco; 09/08/21 03:18 PM.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by fallenj
Originally Posted by Zellin
For example:
1. The spell "Divine smite" is grayed out and cannot be used.
2. You hit. The game registers successful hit and the target.
2. The game highlights for you the spell "Divine smite" and allows to use it against that registered target at expense of 1 spell slot.

Oh this is good! +1 to this.

No, it's not. I'm sorry, and I don't mean to discourage or be aggressive, but this suggestion is the exact same terrible UI design that has plagued this EA; it has little to no foresight and compounds existing issues and makes them worse.

It's not the only such case, but it seems that often many of the 'suggestions' for how to fix or implement something 'better' are things that would ultimately require *More Time*, *More Clicks*, *More Attention*, and be generally *More Work* for the player to fumble with the UI, than a properly implemented player decision-point system. It puzzles me, to be honest. Again, no attack intended.


If you have a proper reaction system which optional class abilities can use the core of, your situation is:
- You have an ability, and when its requirements are met, you are asked, briefly, if you'd like to use it and how strong.
- You do this with *One* click, in an operation that takes *Less Than A Second*.
- You decide in the moment, taking whatever 'decision time' is needed then.

If you do it in the quoted way, your situation is:
- You have an ADDITIONAL spell (or rather, you have an additional *Five* spells by late game) taking up either your screen space and/or your bars.
- They spend MOST of their time grey out an unable to be used, and are just wasting space.
- When you hit something, the button(s) all light up; the player must both notice this and remember to do it.
- The action from their hit has already ended: it's still their turn, but there's every likelihood that the player's focus was on what they were doing with their turn, so after hitting, they may already be thinking along the lines of their movement or their bonus action, so it's much easier to miss or forget this.
- Provided that doesn't become an issue (and I will assume it doesn't), the player must then select a DIFFERENT skill, after the hit effect from their attack has already long since passed, and either
a) click, and then wait a second for the game to register it, and then click again to confirm (because that's how larian's engine works - it NEEDS two clicks, even for Dash, right now), OR
b) click once, and THEN target the creature you hit before with this separate ability... and you do THAT bit manually, and have to fiddle with selecting the target again (while all other targets can be highlighted but are inappropriate targets, because, again, that's how the current engine would need to rectify it if done this way).
- Because the player has to do this manually, they have the freedom to move or take other actions in between instead, but IF they do so, by accident or distraction, but opportunity is forfeit, potentially against the player's intended desire.
- The player decides well after their attack has resolved and the animation has ended and their character has recovered from their animation, rendering the smite a completely separate thing to the attack, in an immersive sense.
- They take their 'decision' time at this point, after the hit - the SAME decision time that needs to be taken in the comparison case; it gains nothing and loses much - including the ability to smite on opportunity attacks.

No, in short, it's not a good suggestion. It's a solution to a problem that shouldn't be a problem, but it's one that is exactly the sort of thing the current design method and UI might be inclined to do... the same thing that has caused no end of complaints and problems throughout this EA for its cluttering of the UI space, its pointless excessive buttons and its general clunkiness. It's more of the same, creating more of the same problems.

Once more, this isn't intended as an attack; it's just pointing out that if this were implemented in this way, and had been presented with the rest of the EA in an earlier patch, it would fit right in with many of the other UI design failures, and would have received the same level of criticism, dissatisfaction and unhappiness that those other elements have all attracted and which most posters (those who comment at all) seem to be unhappy with and want changed.

How should divine Smite work? With a proper implementation of your ability to make meaningful decisions and reactions during the flow of combat, that's how. Nothing short of that is really going to feel acceptable.


Morning Niara, ill give you a +1, looks like you tried to be less aggressive this time.

The reason I like it Niara, is because, in a scenario where you are playing with your buddy. It makes it a optional ability on a players turn, not automatically using up spell slots like how AO is like (toggle). Also during battle in a multiplayer game, if a player is absent for whatever reason, combat will keep flowing with zero interruptions. No, its not perfect, there is plenty of wiggle room along with the ui for adjustment, but if used with this feature in mind, I could for sure see it working well (at least a better way than a toggle that would use spellslots).

I am pretty familiar with this type of ui, it gives customizable options for where you want to place buttons and such. Bag works well also, inserting whatever into the bag and when attached to the action bar and clicked brings up a custom assortment of items.

22:00 he uses mage armor, pop up expands and picks spell level, so the button that would be used as a popup could be highlighted, click and pick spell level done.

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Originally Posted by fallenj
Also during battle in a multiplayer game, if a player is absent for whatever reason, combat will keep flowing with zero interruptions.
I read quite a few concerns on how "proper" reaction would slow down multiplayer sessions, but frankly I don't buy it. If a player is absent to confirm/deny reaction you will get stuck seconds later on his turn. I don't see what's the difference if it get stuck on reaction or turn proper.

Last edited by Wormerine; 09/08/21 04:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by fallenj
Also during battle in a multiplayer game, if a player is absent for whatever reason, combat will keep flowing with zero interruptions.
I read quite a few concerns on how "proper" reaction would slow down multiplayer sessions, but frankly I don't buy it. If a player is absent to confirm/deny reaction you will get stuck seconds later on his turn. I don't see what's the difference if it get stuck on reaction or turn proper.

Proper reaction system from a single player game from a different studio. This is not Solasta, they do not have to rip off a indie dev team feature, there are multiple ways to do reactions. Just because its not this specific way does not make it wrong.

An ya, you will be waiting on his/her turn, keyword his/her. It was a small example in a endless scenario of possibilities. An seconds, maybe 20-30 seconds? maybe, it could happen on first enemy, maybe last enemies turn. Who follows up next? Can the other players take there turn before that said player?

Maybe they should put a timer on player turns so if someone is missing they lose there turn for not being their also.

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Talking about absent players: I have a bad habit of going AFK to grab some tea when it's not my turn in coop. Ofc I'm usually doing it when I know that my turn will be like 5 minutes later, plus i have bluetooth headphones so I still hear what's going on, but yeah if the game would require regular input from me in coop, that would be... not very comfortable.

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Agreed ...
I would be against any timer ... this whole game is in my eyes set around the idea that "world will wait for you, hero" ... that is something that should certainly be consistent. :-/


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Originally Posted by Zellin
Talking about absent players: I have a bad habit of going AFK to grab some tea when it's not my turn in coop. Ofc I'm usually doing it when I know that my turn will be like 5 minutes later, plus i have bluetooth headphones so I still hear what's going on, but yeah if the game would require regular input from me in coop, that would be... not very comfortable.
How often do you get tea?? 3-4 times during a few-hour coop gaming session, max? Worse case scenario, this adds up to ~5-10 minutes max spread out over a few hours which is really not that bad.

This estimate assumes that
-every single time you get tea it's during combat (entirely up to you)
-each of those times your character gets a reaction prompt while you're gone (pretty unlikely unless the AI is bad and constantly provokes AoOs)
-these prompts aren't timed, so they don't automatically resolve after X seconds (why wouldn't the game allow this option?)
-your friends take their turns quickly (pretty unlikely in my experience)

More realistically, during a few hour game session there'd be one time where your friends had to wait <3 minutes for you to get back. Personally, I think that's well worth it for the increase in control and ability for player action/decisions during enemy turns. And this ~isn't a problem for single-player, so at least should be an option.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
How often do you get tea?? 3-4 times during a few-hour coop gaming session, max? Worse case scenario, this adds up to ~5-10 minutes max spread out over a few hours which is really not that bad.
Oh! You're underestimating my crave for tea!
But on the serious note I still hope for some solution from Larian that will reconcile both worlds for the best of the game and their reputation.

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Originally Posted by Zellin
Talking about absent players: I have a bad habit of going AFK to grab some tea when it's not my turn in coop. Ofc I'm usually doing it when I know that my turn will be like 5 minutes later, plus i have bluetooth headphones so I still hear what's going on, but yeah if the game would require regular input from me in coop, that would be... not very comfortable.

Ya, I do the same, during cut scenes, dialog (since its only one player) and other player turns ill be doing stuff around the house. Laundry, dishes, and/or cooking. One of my buddies was incredibly slow at taking his turns, as in taking minutes for a single turn in a long battle every time.

Last edited by fallenj; 09/08/21 10:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Zellin
For example:
1. The spell "Divine smite" is grayed out and cannot be used.
2. You hit. The game registers successful hit and the target.
2. The game highlights for you the spell "Divine smite" and allows to use it against that registered target at expense of 1 spell slot.

There is a weapon that grants divine smite in BG3. I just got it so I haven’t used it yet.

That said for the Paladin ability I think they’re going to follow the same methodology as battle maneuvers. You click smite, attack the enemy, and if it hits you trigger smite.

I hope this isn’t the case as you should be able to save them for crits, and choose the level you are going to burn.

I would much rather have pop-ups or icon centered reactions and smites as you suggested.

*Edit* I used the weapon. It takes an action, uses up the “once per long rest” ability, and if you miss it is still gone (unless mine just glitched). This would be far less than ideal if Paladins work this way. Burning a spell slot before you even swing is not cool.

Last edited by Chukkensorc; 13/08/21 10:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Chukkensorc
Originally Posted by Zellin
For example:
1. The spell "Divine smite" is grayed out and cannot be used.
2. You hit. The game registers successful hit and the target.
2. The game highlights for you the spell "Divine smite" and allows to use it against that registered target at expense of 1 spell slot.

There is a weapon that grants divine smite in BG3. I just got it so I haven’t used it yet.

That said for the Paladin ability I think they’re going to follow the same methodology as battle maneuvers. You click smite, attack the enemy, and if it hits you trigger smite.

I hope this isn’t the case as you should be able to save them for crits, and choose the level you are going to burn.

I would much rather have pop-ups or icon centered reactions and smites as you suggested.

Wait why would you be able to save them for crits, isn't that meta gaming?

Last edited by fallenj; 13/08/21 01:36 AM.
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No that's just how it works: The paladin holds back their limited reserve of direct holy power to channel it when they score a strong, particularly telling strike, and they have the best opportunity to make proper impact. The skill is literally designed as written specifically in a way that allows you to do this, if you choose to.

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I feel like smiting only on crits is emergent optimal gameplay: not metagaming, but definitely powergaming. I imagine the 5e creators wanted people to be able to choose when to smite so that players didn't, for example, waste a smite on a low-hp enemy that the normal attack would already kill. It just so happens that the wording + limited spell slots + crit mechanics encourages smiting only on crits.

Or more realistically, at least in the games I've played, paladins still do smite on some normal attacks. It's just that they ALWAYS smite on crits, and those events are so much more memorable because of the high damage that it gives the impression of smiting only on crits.

And as always, -1 for a hotbar "smite" icon, unless it's a toggle that allows other abilities to be used simultaneously and/or can be left on for use with opportunity attacks. Or +1 to pop-ups, but again there should be a toggle "don't ask me about smiting when toggled off" to prevent continuous pop-ups.

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Originally Posted by Niara
No that's just how it works: The paladin holds back their limited reserve of direct holy power to channel it when they score a strong, particularly telling strike, and they have the best opportunity to make proper impact. The skill is literally designed as written specifically in a way that allows you to do this, if you choose to.

Intesting, thanks for the heads up.

@mrfugi3

Ya I gotcha, interesting though that you would know if the enemy is low on hp.

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In point of fact: Larian is *not* getting around to some kind of pop-ups or really be creative to create an unobstrusive system, if they want to implement reactions and other abilities like sneak attack somewhat faithfully.

And in my opinon they really need to to that. Paladins and Rogues would really get the short end of the stick if they just stick with the systems in a similar way as they are now. Sneak attack is a mess atm.

Not to beat a dead horse too much, but: Look. At. Solasta.

Its a flawed game in many ways. But by avernus, they have the 5e system down. If they want they can have a simplyfy option with toggles, I dont care. But if there is no faithful implementation of reactions there is a full and very important part of the action economy that is missing. And it would impact the quality immensely.

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You talking about the sneak attack, where you roll one die then times it divide it and so on lol.

Last edited by fallenj; 13/08/21 06:19 PM.
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