Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Let's make Minthara Great Again

Me and many guys from the Minthara fan club are very upset that Larian decided to completely change Minthara s appearance. Please return everything as it was before patch 5. Thanks.






VS


It reminded me of a clown doll:





The first version is much better. If the second version is released into the game, there will be much fewer Minthar fans.

I think some of the game designers read the feedback about her hairstyle (I personally liked the previous version, but I remember there was a small discussion). And in the end game designers decided to change not only her hairstyle, but everything in general. We did not ask you for this.

Or perhaps Larian wanted to make her even more evil in appearance... but is it necessary?
Perhaps you were embarrassed by the talk about the arch of redemption, and you decided to adjust its cute appearance for a more demonic one?

I don't know, I missed patch 4 but she kind of looked like a dude before.

I like the new mintara, also her armor is very tight. I witnessed things I am not very interested in ahahhahaha

Really? I have exactly this impression now.

Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh, disgusting.
Fun fact: I once read a RPG story that featured Drow females doing what they do in Drow society, meaning backstabbing, scheming etc.

And in that story more often they beat down each other naturally.
One of the favourite methods to shame another Drow female was to cut off her hair.

Highlighting that this Drow female has been "dominated" by one superior.
And dominance is what Drow culture is all about after all.
" A weakling or traitor does not have the right for long hair. "
" You can first glance identify an inferior Drow female for being unable to protect her hair. "

And now this happens!

Honestly, every time I see Minthara, both before and after, all I can think of is David Bowie.

Minthara before:



Minthara after:

Terrible thread title, but I did prefer her previous look with the purple armor and the rat's nest do over the pixie cut.

One of the things they changed with the most recent patch was to make eyelash color match the hair color choice. Not just for Minthara but for custom PCs as well.

This was a terrible choice, since it makes the eyelashes just look like a bad eyeliner application depending on the hair color you choose.

Whiteout for mascara is fine for D&D fashion week, but in that case they should make eyelashes a separate field in the appearance tab the way the eyeshadow is handled, since now I can't stand looking at any character with white hair, because of what it does to the eyes. I'm sure it was meant to add another layer of detail/realism to the face models, but it ends up just looking poorly rendered now.

I donno man, I didn't even like her previous look either. She looks too modest to be a drow in either version given the fact that drow society is highly hedonistic and abusive in DnD universe.

Yes... I felt used and dirty after my interaction with her. Never again Maybe :V NOT THAT IT IS AN INTEREST! Just.. In another game I'll have to go through this again after release.

I dunno what strikes me harder ...
The fact that someone concidered Minthara to look like David Bowie ... or the fact that he is right.

I didnt even notice that was changed ...
I mean i did notice that my drow had while eyelashes ofcourse, but didnt remembered it was different before.

But i actualy kinda like it, it makes sence to me. O_o
So honestly i hope this stays at least as option.

Um... actually you can still choose black eyelashes in the hair options with white and many other colored hairs. It's in your character creation "appearance" options.

+1

She was no Viconia, but now she looks horrible and her voice doesn't match.

I wasn't able to see any appearance option that governed this consistently. With the "All colors" tab selected most colors will still show dark lashes. For the lighter shades there are some pairings of similar colors one of which affects the lashes and brows, and the other which doesn't. If you deselect the "All" to show only natural colors there are only a couple light grays that do it. I guess it's the look they must want her to have, but I think she looked better before for the reasons above.

All the whites still blow out the hair though and give those artifacts. The lashes look the same for the all the color choices that affect them, they break up at the edges except for when viewed in the super zoom. I think its mainly the opacity. They need to knock it back and soften it up, so the hairs are more transparent. That would help to prevent the scatter effect when its being animated and the hairs are bouncing around. Right now its like you can see it pixelating by individual strands. Particularly stark when the hair is white shown against a darker eyeshadow or skin tone or set against a dark backdrop or feature of the environment. The environmental lighting also doesn't seem to carry as well when bouncing off the hair. The chroma seems to change more than the value in dim light for example, which is a little wonky. Its only really noticeable like this because its otherwise rendered out pretty well and the modelling in this game is pretty gorgeous, so it stands out more by comparison I guess.

I think the purple worked better for a couple reasons, but mainly because we perceive color relative to the other colors around it. Since we see her usually indoors during most cutscenes and in orange lighting from flames, the purple made a nice complementary contrast. You can see it in the screens a few posts above. Instead of appearing cool against a warm backdrop, now she looks warm against a warm one, because of all the oranges and reds carrying through. It makes her eyes more red as well. Its subtle but I noticed for sure. Orange and Green lighting is classic horror, and I think her purple gear worked nicely against it. The trim on her new gear makes it look more like a button up shirt than armor. I think they should hit the drawing board again.

The main reason she looks better in the cutscene screenshots above, as opposed the convo shots above, is because she is being backlit there in the cinematics, which obviously makes her look more ominous and badass hehe. To see the difference you'd need the same shots side by side. She's not as bad as the convo pics above would suggest, but the changes still stand out pretty markedly. It was kind of a curious choice.

If they really want her to look more badass, they should dress her in black. Black threads, Indigo/Purple skin and White hair with a tiny flash of red from the belt jewel and her eyes. That is a pretty classic villainous look and color combo. Really hard to top I'd think. Unless they want to go Black with hints of Green, which is witch-queen classic, that might also be cool. But I kind liked the purple they had initially, much more than the red-orange-purple at any rate. They basically inverted the main color-values of her outfit. Now the areas that used to appear light seem more muted, and everything comes across in the midrange, instead of setting up a nice contrast. You can see it in how the collar and trim look now relative to each other, and how the rings and decorative metallic parts of her shirt now look flattened out and more like a cloth pattern. Especially the detailing on the arms. The first read was much more dramatic.

Not to over scrutinize MInthara's looks, I'm sure if they took away Halsin's guns or locks they'd probably get a similar response haha. I think she has a memorable face and voice and makes for a solid B villain. She's more Shar-Teel than Viconia. I was kinda surprised when she ended up being a Cleric and not just some skull cracker haha. It's more the ancillary elements in her design that they could play up though I think. I liked the raggedy sleeps-where-the-goblins-sleep vibe of her first haircut, but I think they could go next level with it. If she was dressed in all black in the opening scene when the Nautiloid is crashing, I think it would make her seem like a more serious threat and general point of interest. Cause you'd know immediately she was all darkside cutthroat murderess for sure in that case. Give her a sword, and it's like done deal!

She should be a companion down the line.

It is like cancer that game developers think putting masculine properties on a female character makes her unique or they just want to project their political stance and cover it in disguise of "unique" design choise.

That made a lot of more sense though.

As a female with very short hair - it is not a "masculine property", thanks very much!!!

Why do men think that there's some sort of sinister agenda or political undertone to making a female character who isn't a walking stereotype... They're just trying something new lmfao

Ok. So I know I said she looked like David Bowie and all, but I actually thought her new look was an improvement and fit her voice better. In some of the darker moments, she's really much creepier to me and more Drow looking.

But, I'm not opposed to them trying yet another look or reverting.

Honestly i dont like her hair ...
But i believe i would not mind it at all ...

But it seems to me like her face was also recreated, and it isnt better now. :-/
Is that just make up or some minor change, or complete redesign? I dunno ... but before i really find her pretty, now i dont.

Thankfully you are not a game character.

Never understood that idea of women with short hair is somehow masculine. Why isn't the same idea applied to men with long hair?

We live in times also in which certain hairstyles have earned themself a bad reputation.
Because they were adopted by people of repulsive behaviour & ideologies.
People who become Meme's and warning signals for the masses.


I am a man so I cannot say for the other way around but long hair has a very female impression in our modern society.
And it will remain this way no matter what some very loud & influental people say or do.
It just is that way.
Furthermore and as countless other heterosexual males, I have come to like it and view it as strongly expressing the feminim beauty.
"Short hair" for Women is considered shoulder deep probably for most.

But this?
This what happened to Minthara?
It is just "punk" or "feminist" or whatever "renegade" like style.
Very bad.

With Drow: You know they are fanatics. But now?
Now Minthara looks like she is nothing but some sort of insufferable extremist.


The calm, calculating, manipulative Drow who uses her feminim charm has disappeared.
She looks like someone being aggressive & verbally offensive to people in her society, probably on "protests".
^
This is what the new hairstyle of her's is now making me expect.
Just terrible.

Nothing wrong with a short hair style, it just that this hair style looks horrible for her. Everything else is fine, but this particular new hair looks terrible on her.

Drow tend to keep their hair longer with webbing and such as decorations. I'm fine with whatever they do with her appearance, really, but I'd either like to see something more traditional in terms of Drow female hair or give me a reason why she isn't that way. Maybe she cut her hair on purpose because she's apart of the cult of Absolute, so she's rejecting her own culture. Maybe she was disgraced by her people and they cut her hair and it was a reason why she joined the Absolute.

But, again, either way, it's a VERY small point for me. I'd just like to see her be MORE evil. None of the villains right now really give me any kind of totally evil and tough vibes except Minthara. When she's talking to Sazza and such, I get some chills. She SEEMS like she could be REALLY awesome as a first main villain, but they just don't do enough with her. Make a cutscene where she actually tosses someone in the spider pit and grins wickedly as she watches her spiders feast. Have her do more during the final grove fight, if you take that route. SOMEthing more. Right now, none of the villains are particularly menacing to me, and Minthara in particular seems like she really COULD be. Ragzlin just seems like a tough thug and Gut is an old lunch lady who can't do much. At least Minthara is something more... or at least she really could be.

Do we really need cutscenes for every single butt scratching in game? :-/

I mean come on ...
Minthara sends goblins to kill Sazza, bcs dealing with her personaly in beneath her.
You can go with them and watch the whole execution up close (funny, i never actualy tryed to save her, now when i think about it) ...

Isnt that enough? :-/
To me it seems much better, than Disney's Maleficient laughting in storm. -_-

Ah yes! Thanks for quoting what I suggested word for word. Nothing says evil villain like a good butt scratch cutscene. And yes, no one is as evil as Maleficent. Glad I brought her up too.

No wait! I DIDN'T.

I'm not looking for any of that. I said I just wanted something more sinister. The villains, all three of them, don't get much screen time at all, so they seem rather un-evil. Minthara is the only one who strikes me as being good enough at being a true evil villain, but they don't have her DO much of anything. IF you release Sazza, you get a glimpse of her evil, but that's it. IF you lure her to the grove for a final showdown, she side-steps an arrow like a bad-÷×%, but again, that's it.

She might not be a big boss in the grand scheme of things, but she could be made out to be SO much more awesome. She just needs SOMETHING more to make her more evil; something LIKE a small scene where she feeds someone herself to her spiders, them dangling there watching with QUIET delight as they scream.

I've never associated men with long hair to be more feminine. I guess it depends on how long I guess. Is Geralt from The Witcher more feminine?

And I couldn't care less if women have short hair.

Minthara was always great. Not very nice, but great.

Minthara would say she doesn't care what some filthy, knuckle-dragging human scum thinks of her hair.

Her words!

lol.

Minthara is great. That's why I want more of her in the game. Ragzlin and Gut are just needed. Minthara is the brains annd wickedness.

Yeah although it is not a prerequisite, it totally adds up if you also have plank chest, boney face and rusty voice altogether at once while wearing unisex clothing. Sorry, maybe it doesn't meet your equality standards but that's what's up for god knows how many thousands of years.

That's about real life projection on a fantasy world and many people hate it. I mean, drow culture in DnD is highly hedonistic and abusive. How good do you think the looks of both Minthara 1.0 and 2.0 reflect drow culture? Why is it so hard nowadays to make Minthara a sexy evil bitch? She comes from that kind of culture. It is a freeking fantasy world. People go into game worlds to get away from real world problems, not to be exposed the same bs there too...

This

I gotta say, the hooey said by Kein and Sinogy really does highlight the need for those "repulsive" feminists.

As a straight male, it is of course fairly depressing to have to say this, but women do not exist just to make our gigglesticks hard. And they are under no obligation to conform to our particular personal preferences. Frankly, and pardon me for being blunt, but I can think of no reason whatsoever that any female out there should ever care in the slightest how Kein and Sinogy defines femininity.

Regarding Minthara, so far it appears that she was formerly of House Baenre in Menzoberranzan. She does not appear to be particularly young either. That means she probably spent a century or more at the very top of the power pyramid in one of the most fanatically right-wing hellholes one can imagine, a place where the strong can do literally anything they want with the weak, and where the weak are not merely left to live or die as they can, but are in fact entirely without rights, purely the playthings of whomever cares to play with them.

Yes, Drow society is somewhat hedonistic, but the idea that a Drow of Minthara's former station would actually care a whole lot what others think of her appearance strikes me as almost unthinkable. If a daughter of the First House of Menzoberranzan wants to use you, she will tell you and you will perform. Whether you find her beautiful is of less than zero relevance, but while she has an interest, you will act as if she is the goddess of beauty. Or else. And that "or else" is several paragraphs of extremely nasty.

This is the Drow society that Minthara was raised in, the society she was raised to be a major power player in. And you think she should be a sexy bitch that gives even the tiniest little whiff of a fart what you think of her appearance? No, I think you're getting that power dynamic entirely wrong. She might not be a priestess of Lolth in Menzo anymore, but the arrogance and egomania of decades or even centuries does not go away easily. She's not trying to charm you into letting her be your bitch, she's graciously and generously allowing you the honor of being hers.

At least that's how I read her character.

AND THAT'S what I want more of. Minthara should be an absolute, pun intended, sinister witch. They don't portray that nearly enough. Regardless of appearance, she should send chills doen our spines in every scene, and she should be the absolute toughest boss of EA. She should be smart, and clever and utterly vicious in every way. I should feel like I'm talking to the Emperor from Star Wars when in her presence, scared to even take her on.

Instead, I'm like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

I shall save this ... and i will post it every time someone will complain about me quoting everything i react on ...
Once i didnt and this is how it ends.

Funny you mention it ...

Halsin should be an ARCHDRUID ...
Nature fury enbodied to single person, personificated wrath of Sylvanus hymself (who would probably be pissed off, that you just massacred whole grove of his followers)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take him with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Ethel should be an acutal witch (or Hag ... in my language that are synonyms)
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take her with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

Gith patrol should be perfectly prepared to any danger this world can provide ...
Instead, we are like, "Meh. I could take them with my 4 level 4 characters. Easy."

One would almost say that the fact that "we can take them" is there bcs game is usualy created so player can overcome anything (with enough effort) ... and have nothing to do with what that person should present.

It is not a person it is a fictional character. Hellooo. There is nothing wrong in it entertains people.
Apart from that, people deserve much more credit than you give. I mean, you are proly a liberal sjw type person but things you wrote about males see women like this bla bla are not different than Trump saying video games incite violence!
Believe me, most people are at least as smart as you and they can differentiate real world from fantasy world.

Going back to Minthara. You have zero evidence to interpret about why she looks modest af. Drow is not somewhat hedonistic, they are highly hedonistic. You can not just cherry pick things fit into your world view story and exclude other factors by saying somewhat. There is nothing somewhat about it. Drow is created like that by the creators of this universe. I am not making the lore! So, suck it up.
Minthara coming from a strong house has no reason to be ugly and modest. You want an interpretation? Prople on top of the pyramid have access to the most desirable of things and tyrants are not modest. Minthara coming from a gene pool that manifests itself in the form of her being that ugly is pretty unlikely and culture she comes from make her look that modest even more unlikely. Capeesh?

With Men the hairstyle is not important but more the overall bone structure of the face & being possibly overweight.
Men look either like born winners or god was once more an a°°hole and decided this one is to amuse the masses with his goofy appearance.
A "handsome" man will look good with almost any hairstyle.
An unattractive man will look sh°° regardless what he does.


I wondered for some time why long hair has such a strong impact on females?
Must have to do with simple biological facts like vertility & the power of youth.

Men are instinctually programmed to seek not a beautiful mate to be with for life, but a suitable target simply for reproduction purposes, to ensure the survival of the species.
Long, thick & healthy hair is a sign of youth and a vibrant life force able to "produce" lots of children.
The older Humans become the less amazing, more pitiful and thin will their hair look.
Or at least the hair of the majority of people - a few natural born winners as the exception even until the day they check out.


Men are supposed to find "a vertile healthy female body" attractive.
This body type seems to have certain characteristics & shapes we all know as a classic example of beauty.
Nice curves, toned body, bodyfat proportions in all the right places ( the same as for what jiggles and what not ) and long, healthy looking hair.

Everything else will be automatically seen as inferior or less attractive.


Minthara as she looks now, looks less attractive.
She looks weak, "sick", frail, undernourished, about to get worse.
A man in hospital wear supporting himself on a stilt does not look strong either even if he has muscles. ^^
Our villainous EA Drow could look worse but she looks like she is suffering under some kind of condition right now.

Ah yes! You have once again proven my point about D&D 5e monsters in this game. Larian is using characters and monsters that should be WAY tougher, and they are dumbing them down. ALL of them. I 100% agree.

See what I mean? So much hooey. No, mate, you clearly cannot differentiate your personal fantasies from reality, because you're blabbering on about how other people must be "liberal sjw" types because they're okay with a murderous psychopath having short hair rather than being a sexy doll with long hair that stands around in a gobbo camp in heels, underwear, and full make-up. Because she's only a part time warlord and her real calling is obviously as a callgirl. Do I even need to put into words how ridiculous that idea is? By the way, that "liberal sjw" thing is quite revealing of your personal beliefs, isn't it?

"But it entertains people, so it is okay", no, not really. The game has a setting and characters should fit that setting. Drow daughters that were groomed from childhood to lord over everybody else and keep all the lessers in line should not be pretty girls that just want to be someone's plaything. It just does not fit.

And of course I can use the word "somewhat" whenever I feel like it. It's how people speak, mate. Get out of your basement and smell the world a bit, you'll realise it soon enough. For instance, your idea that Drow nobility are bred to be pretty is "somewhat" off the mark. Matron mothers are not chosen through a beauty pageant and while their male companions might be chosen in no small part based on who appeals to the matron at the time, there's no guarantee that it will produce offspring. Do the math. First priority is having children, second priority is children of sound mind. If they're pretty then that's a bonus.

Lastly, yes, the tyrants in Drow society have access to anything they want, more or less. So why do you think a power player in that society would want something as shallow and pathetic as "to be pretty"? What they want is power. More power. Then even more power. Ambition is everything. Looking weak or unhealthy is bad, but beyond that it would be a weakness if a Drow noble started feeling vulnerable about her appearance. The other sharks will smell that from a mile away and prey upon it. It would be a no go.

You mentioned Trump. He's a pretty good example, actually. Do you see Trump trying to be "pretty"? Is he often showcasing his "masculine charm"? No, he isn't. He is rich and powerful enough that if he calls himself pretty and good-looking and brags about his wrists and how youthful he is then who will contradict him to his face? Power dynamics at work. However, he does seem a bit prone to flattery and he seems "somewhat" vulnerable about some of his age-related attributes, like his thinning hair and his bad complexion. Do you think such vulnerabilities would be particularly helpful in a place like Menzo?

I think this is one of those conversations that does best when no one takes it particularly seriously.

Either by ignoring it completely and let them shout their doctrine into the indifferent sky, or just gently making fun of the posters.

One thing I am sure of, if Minthara heard OP criticize her hair she would skin you living and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear.

There you go again, equating your personal preferences with that of all men. Being a heterosexual male, something I gather from your previous comment is very important to you, I disagree quite a bit. What you're entering into is the usual pocket-philosophy nitwittery of alpha and beta, winners and losers, the same usual platitudal noise that you get from any half-decent "this is how you get laid" guide for basement people. Hooey.

Long hair does not mean vibrant, thick, lush hair. Short hair does not mean frail hair. On top of that, you're going head first into an enormous false dichotomy. That is to say, beauty is not a binary quality and the dramatic majority of people on the planet are neither beautiful nor ugly, but somewhere in the middle. On top of that, standards for what constitutes beautiful are not universally the same and have not universally been the same through time. A pretty woman 200 years ago looked very different from what we consider pretty now.

Currently we have a weird standard where completely unnatural proportions in women is apparently beautiful. To some, anyway. A weight of 100 lbs or less, enormous front pads made of plastic, and a waist you can reach around with your hands. And a butt so big that bringing a chair is optional. This is cartoon nonsense. It has nothing to do with looking youthful or healthy. It's just your intense desire for your personal fantasy to be "rational" that runs away from you. It isn't rational at all, it's just what you've been taught is pretty by your social environment, and it makes no more inherent sense than any other beauty standard.

Also, all that commentary about Minthara as if she was a 2021 woman rather than an Elf living in a medieval setting... Hooey.

Yeah, you're probably right. But I feel bad about people reading some of that rubbish and thinking "oh my goodness, these people are all like that", so some counter-yelling does unfotunately seem to be required.

And if it also leads to some understanding of just how brutal and conniving and unfathomably harsh and viscious and predatorious life happens to be in Menzoberranzan then that doesn't hurt either. But yeah, I think I've made my point here.

Currently the big flaw in Minthara is that her voice sounds a bit on the older side and her looks is a bit on the older side, but she's only a fairly low level cleric. It feels odd, though of course she can't have been a priestess of the Absolute for all that long just yet. It is not inconceivable that the tadpole and brainwashing gave her a hard reset. Aside from that, I like her. Well, I hate her guts, obviously, but that's how it should be, her being a an extremely evil fanatic Absolute-worshipping Drow and all.

I feel like saying, "Preach it!" lol.

The part about her making someone's face into new underwear... priceless. So Drowish. I want Minthara to say something like that now in the game. Like whenever you fight her she taunts you by saying she's going to skin you alive and fashion your face into a new pair of underwear. THAT would be awesome!

I do think a hard reset is what they're going for with anyone who has a brain bug. Take Karlach. She's supposed to be a demon slayer, but there she is injured almost fatally by a few cultists of Zariel. Gale should be some super powered wizard. Wyll is supposed to be a champion of Baldurs Gate.

So whatever the tadpoles did, it seems they reset their hosts.

Quite an interesting read. From my personal view all I can say in patch 5 Minthara looks a bit less dirpy, which I think is right.

As to the whole interesting post you have written… it might all be correct, but to me she didn’t have much more presence then “one of three goblin bosses”, with whom you can apparently sleep. Perhaps, I just didn’t explore her path deeply enough, but characterisation for her (and any other characters) just isn’t that strong.

I am not sure how much it can be improved - it is not Bioware RPG, so doing lengthy well structured sequence, like BG2 underdark is out of the question. I knew what BG2 drows were all about. In BG3 it’s just set of situations to mess with. There might be thought put into those characters, and lore books laying around, but we just don’t see the characters in action enough, to make a lasting impression. Nor, more importantly, do we get to interact with them in an interesting way. RPGs in particular have a unique ability explore characters and cultures through interaction. All I got from her was “here is an evil path for you. Kill the good guys for an unknown reason”.

Exactly ... Larian does ...
Just Larian ofcourse, i never seen it anywhere else ... excuse me for a second, i just go one-shot Lich King, and maybe Deathwing.

No I don't see what you mean. I don't think even you see what you mean. You are just confused.

Being pretty and being attractive are not necessarily synonyms but I am not surprised you can't see the difference. Sadly, it seems things are either within your political narrative or outside of it regardless of context.

I don't give a flying fuck about if Minthara's look fits my aesthetic standards. The problem is her look does not reflect Drow standards especially that of one who is high in their cast system. Power means nothing if you have to use it whenever you need people to see what it means that's why powerful people and groups show their capabilities through visual representations unless they have a reason to hide it. Otherwise, they would just jump from one unnecessary conflict to another and thinking "all I want is power why would I care about how people see me" is just naive. Naivety has no place in drow culture.

Sorry I don't make the rules and if something is inconsistent within the context it belongs then that means it is inconsistent within the context it belongs whether it fits your real world political view or not!

My personal hope for the game is that the writers create their characters, design their appearance, and integrate their stories without listening to any input from the players. People clamoring for adding Halsin to the party because he is a big hawt druid and demanding Minthara be hotter because she titillated some of subset of players with a nip shot is just ridiculous.

The same players who preach and whine about female characters needing to hotter and angrily posting about game devs bowing to the “woke mob” see no issue with demanding those same devs bow to their demands for hotter women? Seriously? I call hypocrisy. I find both points of view to be nothing more than a demand for writers to ignore their own creative impulses to please some immature howlers who think they know best “how it ought to be”.

Want some hawt animated chars to drool over? Write a fanfic or create a mod. But demanding the creators of a game change a story or a char to please you? It is beyond childish and entitled.

I saw how Bioware totally destroyed the lore of the templar order to make Cullen romance-able. I personally do not want to see Larian make side chars like Minthara and Halsin more important than they are to please a subset of their playerbase. It will be nothing but hackneyed writing if they do it, and it will show.

Sometimes it blows my mind how serious we fans can take stuff.

Let's take a step back. Think real life culture. In the 1950s, a woman would never be caught dead in pants. All women were to wear skirts to their ankles and have longer hair. Now, most women DONT wear long skirts and many DONT like long hair.

Who's to say all Drow women everywhere throughout all time must look a certain way?

Established game lore uses clear stereotypes. Stereotypes are useful for a consistent imaginary world.

Real world is chaotic and ever changing. If you try to overlap real world and game world all the time all you are left with will be confusion because everything becomes mutable at any given time.

There are ways to make changes in lore but it requires more effort than " hey I make changes now because real life is changeable" to stay consistent.

that's a weird way to say that you want girls to look like girls.

Agreed to the post you quoted though, it's insane to me just how much angst is involved in how women are portrayed. Oddly enough, more angst seems to come from men than women lol

Agreed. Established game lore is good. However, it's been 100 years in Faerun since the Time of Troubles. A LOT has changed. Establishing some new lore makes sense. My point is that customs change a lot in jist 50 years. It's conceivable that something as simple as hairstyles may have also changed for Drow in over 100 years.

Also, not EVERY place has to be the same. Drow in Menzo may be different from Drow in other places. I think it makes the world more realistic and immersive if stereotypes aren't always followed.

Sure, as long as you create a timeline where the narrative tells a story involving also these kind of cultural changes, such as a book approved by WoTC etc. etc. What I mean is if you wanna make changes in official source then at least make it with a background narration. Otherwise, the changes you make become baseless. I mean saying "hey drows look like this now and it is because we like to make it and we don't make a story behind our choice to fit in the game narrative" means some changes you make in the game universe needs more work. I mean it is just lazy writing expecting the audience to accept whatever you make without building a narrative network of reasoning.

Yeah, it takes one to know one. You may like to express yourself with hidden motives behind but what I say is what I mean.

"In many ways, the drow resembled other elves or eladrin.Their bodies were wiry and athletic, while their faces were chiseled and attractive, though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.- Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces. Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear. According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

The official description of drows are not aligned with Larian's choise of visual representation for Minthara. You may like it, you may be happy because it reflects your real world political stance for whatever reason but all that doesn't change the fact that Minthara's look does not fit for the official descriptions that's why I say Larian's design choice on this character is not consistent with the lore. Minthara looks so modest and so drab in both v1.0 and 2.0 that even goblins look more attractive compared to her. She is too dull to be a drow.
Again, it is not about my personal choices. I haven't even spent time trying to talk to her in my play times. I just outright kill her to take the loot. I am not interested in evil playthrough. But Larian saying "hey look she is a drow" is total immersion breaker because the visual representation is not consistent with the lore. It means Larian's motives behind the design choices are not always about staying true to DnD universe and it bothers me. I don't like seeing video games being a tool for political signaling especially high fantasy ones but hey if they wanna turn their product into that then I guess they will do it. I have to suck it up but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

these are the only actual physical attributes in that quote and Minthara arguably fits all of those.

I'm not the one pushing their own idea of representation on a race, you are. You want her to fit YOUR idea of what is attractive, and i get it, but don't pretend you're just following the lore.

edit: Also, read the 5e pbe page 24. Not a single thing about skimpy clothing or instagram looks. Nothing at all actually about them being attractive.

You haven't even heard of Races of Faerûn up until my previous post and all of a sudden you become some sort of expert about its subtext, huh? Wow dude, it maybe too much confidence, I am telling you!

No she doesn't arguably fit all of those. Can you please be more elaborate and honest about what is physically attractive about her especially with the latest changes? Do you really think her face could be the product of selective breeding lasted for generations to produce attractive forms to seduce not only her kind but also other kinds especially surface races?
Plus, attractiveness is not all about physical attributes, it is also about representation (outfit, manner, posture etc. etc.). Her outfit is dull and modest compared to even that of goblins ffs unless it was designed for very specific people with very specific fetish!
How is she gonna seduce or intimidate surface races with her appearance? With her short hair being just short?

Minthara- " Heeey look at my short hair, it is not even fashioned short, it is just short short. and despair. Look at my ugly face which has no attractive attributes unless you have a very specific fetish and fall victim to my seduction. Look at my outfit which is purely designed for utility purposes just like that of a peasant without any visually spectacular and attractive decorations - again, unless you have a very specific fetish- and despair or fall victim to my seduction...your choice"

Huh? Is that it? Do you have an alternative interpretation to fit her into established lore? Try and see how silly it will become.

Things don't happen in midair without any base just because you say "maybeee"

Apart from all those, you labeling me for being smth I am not is becoming harassment.

For those of us who became endeared to the Minthara that was used through 4 patches it may very well be that our only hope will be modded appearances to provide more variety; I no longer feel comfortable romancing this new Minthara; because I still associate Minthara with her medium length hair from the first 4 patchs and I don't at all like her very loud silver eyeshadow; why even give her eyeshadow if the purpose of the patch 5 appearance change is to express a more masculine Minthara?; no character in Baldur's Gate 3 has eyeshadow that looks this bad in my opinion; with my reshade and lighting her eyeshadow makes the area around her eyes shine like disco balls; it doesn't suit her armored appearance or her haircut and I find it strange that the developers thought this makeup choice was appealing; but this is a permanent change it would seem; and I have a feeling that this may be her final major iteration besides her armor.

I've been wondering if her face has been changed other than hair and makeup alterations and coloring; it's honestly hard for me to tell; but it does seem like it if anyone knows please point it out to me; I've been scrutinizing images for a long time now trying to contrast the differences and I would like to list them. I should have taken more screenshots of her previous appearance when I had the chance; maybe I can revert the game with an earlier patch using steamdb.info; it would be nice if I could see exactly what changed.

I've done modding for only a few games mostly Skyrim and Fallout; I've never modded a Larian game; but I'm going to mod BG3 because basically Minthara is the only reason I was interested in this game, I paid 60 dollars for early access and lo and behold patch 5 comes around and they chop her hair off and give her some weird ill-fitting silver eyeshadow, they made her face sharper I think; though I'm going to do some image comparisons to figure that out.

I do wonder if Minthara's patch 5 appearance is more true to Larian's original concept art or if her pre patch 5 appearance is truer to the concept art; if anyone has any information regarding her concept art please share it; it would be useful to know especially to those of us who would like to mod her.

So in conclusion my fellow members of the Minthara fan club who prefer the original pre patch 5 Minthara; we're going to have to mod her and provide the community with appearance options for our favorite Drow villainess because I don't think the Larian devs are going to regard our opinion on this matter; but we the gamers can make her great again and even better than she was before; at least eventually; considering Gale's, Shadowheart's and Wyll's appearances have had mod overhauls; that said they are main characters and not npcs; so there may be some sort of differences in modding an npc character instead; I'm going to have to do some research on this.

I'm not sure why personal attacks had to enter the picture, but that's my cue to back out. Take the last word.

Um, what are you on about? Since when were drow into seducing the surface races? You do realize that most, if not all, of the surface races basically regard them as evil or at least not to be trusted, and the drow are all about just killing or enslaving the surface races, right? Nothing about them or their culture, goddess, society, or lore, leans into them being seductresses. They aren't succubi. They are about destroying or enslaving the surface races, so of course she would be wearing actual armor, not a chainmail bikini. I don't find her quite as attractive as she was before either, but that's fine, not every female character has to be a supermodel or something, and once again the drow aren't about selective breeding and seduction but war and conquest so being traditionally attractive doesn't really matter to them, much less to humans and other surface races.

That's not how D&D has ever worked. They develop the game. People play it and develop their own details. You expect them t literally write up every detail of lore for over 100 years?

I like the new Minthara, she fits the chosen of the Absolute much better. She is not following the Spider Queen anymore anymore and so she should neither act like she is still worships the Spider queen, nor look like a Lolth-sworn drow priestess. She has left that life for good; it's not like Lolth is a goddess of forgivness and would welcome her back. Considering that other "blessed by the Absolute" that you meet so far are priestess Gut, Drog Ragzlin, that one owlbear guy and the gnoll leader, it's clear that the Absolute doesn't care for looks. They are a violent cult looking for destruction, not seducing new members into their flock.

The only thing I don't like is Minthara's glitter make up, it looks weird in cutscenes.

edit: A bit off topic, but I'd like it if PC clerics and paladins would get deity-based armor, like Shadowheart, so that they look the part.

I puzzled me aswell ... and i think i managed to find the perfect opourtunity to create comparsion.



Source of Old Minthara model: 1:08
Source of New Minthara model: 0:52

Anyway, it seems to me like the facial structures was not alterned at all ...
Its indeed just the hair, makeup, and the presence of source of light certainly change the final outcome a bit too. :-/
Even her ears was so big back then.

//Edit:
Maybe that is only my imagination ...
But the contrary to common expression around here, when you look at her shoulders she actualy was a little more masculine on previous model ... she certainly look a lot thiner now. O_o

//Edit2:
Just the funny detail i just noticed ... do you see that her new hair, have "kinda" spider-shape?
Im affraid i will never be able to unsee it now.

Her look is not important to me at all, but I liked the first model more than the new one.

Her stock ring mail is a bigger problem. She needs a menacing Drow armor with Absolute robes over them. She looks tougher in the new hair so it's good.

This kind of debate is inevitable when they release an unfinished character model and change it 10 months later. I would still respect their vision of the character and let them finish it before demanding they revert their designs to the placeholder ones.

The previous look was better for me.

The main issue I see with the new look is the choice of the make-up which is a bit too flashy.

She could also deserves a more caracteristic outfit

Anyway, it remains a minor point for me.

It would be much easier on us, if we actualy know what model is concidered finished and wich they will work on futher ...
[sarcasm]I dunno ... something like creating "PLACEHOLDER" tatoo that will those NPC have with huge green letters on forehead.[/sarcasm]

Thank you this really helps me; so if I figure out how to change her hair and her eyeshadow; I'll be in a good situation.

Seems like it

//Edit:
Chubblot is doing that for quite some time now ... maybe he will create some tutorial video. O_o

Here,

" According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Have a nice day with your wrong assumptions.



Here is a bonus to end your whole career,

"Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,the drow (especially nobles) looked attractive even in comparison to other elven subraces." quote Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast)

Ok. I was avoiding this thread long enough. Do you guys realise that Minthara is a "failure" for a Drow?
If you pretend that you're Lolth in front of her spiders they will tell you that she lost "your" ways.
If you take a look into her mind after sleeping with her you'll find out that she's afraid of something.
If you convince her not to kill you, she will tell you to met a person at her service, someone who got punished by Lolth. And Minthara talks about him with compassion.
Even more she has house Baenre mark as a tatoo. Maybe Larian made somewhat a mistake here, but normally that would tell that she's not a member of the house, but their property - a slave.

Soo... I said before already that the current hairdo suits her better and I'm standing by that... it suits her as a character, not a candy for an eye. She's fallen, probably humiliated, probably striped of all dignity she had once as a drow cleric. She probably had a moment like this at some point:
But more likely not voluntary. And then she has this hairdo in a quite strict style now comparing to the messy one she had in previous patches. And she is a strict harsh person. That detail can be seen as her way to show that she's going to fight back, that she took this position of more of a fighter than a woman. Maybe one day after all the fighting will be done she'll grow her hair to feet, but now she's just keeping it in order.

I wouldn't vote against giving her better and more feminine face, she is an elf and a drow after all. Slightly tilted bigger eyes, slightly plumper lips, more subtle or stylish make up. But the hairdo looks more like a part of her story for me, than a choice of style and it's more suitable now than before.

+1

It is made very clear Minthara is not a fan of Loth and so her not giving a damn about having long hair like a typical female Drow fits like a glove. Her personality is very aggressive and so once again, short hair that does not get in the way just fits her.

I am not saying she looks perfect and there can be no changes, but attributing short hair to some agenda is hilariously sad.

+1 to Zellin's intelligent and well thought out answer as well!

Try to re-read and comprehend my post for real.

Yeah yeah you are right on I had the wrong interpretation of your comment. That's why I deleted my post.

Still tho, too many maybes are needed to be made by players. Instead, the creator should have filled the story holes. It is %100 Larian's fault.

This is also what I was thinking, but I wouldn't use the word failure. I would say she became disillusioned and left in disgust, maybe self-exiled and in her wanderings she found or was found by the absolute and converted.

I think the Absolute, like many cults, finds the members of society or even entire societies that are outcasts, the rejected, the abandoned. There can be great strength in a pariah, especially if they survive.

Her ritualistically cutting her hair may be part of her story arc that most players won't initially see/read/experience because they will follow a path-polished goody two-shoes arc that will result in Minthara's death.

The greatest villains are ones we can see ourselves in, especially when you know the backstory.

It's not just guys that are part of the pre patch 5 Minthara Fan club; most players who like the first iteration do so purely out of preference and that has a lot to due with the fact that they romanced and interacted with her first iteration for how long has it been ten months now?; I suppose it's been that long.

Minthara's hair has never actually been long; it was medium length ruffled hair; so both iterations make sense in regard to her not abiding by the long haired aspect of Drow culture; though it is somewhat interesting that she keeps spiders which are servants of Lolth close at hand and she also shows no shortage of Drow supremacist views; if anything she flaunts her racial pride in my opinion; some players like her present iteration and others like her earlier iteration; it's a matter of preference.

Plenty of players loved Minthara's first iteration and many of those same individuals are saying that it's not lore friendly now; that wasn't the case before patch 5; a lot of players who were talking about her first iteration noted how ruffled and unkempt her hair was and how it fit her circumstances and demeanor; furthermore her current very copious silver eyeshadow is very peculiar for someone who apparently is being presented with a rough exterior and makes very little sense to some people; which is another reason why some players prefer her first iteration. The differences between her iterations exist in hair and makeup; her face is pretty good in my opinion.

The remedy for the players' different preferences has to be modded appearances; we can make different iterations of Minthara as well as other characters and share them; most likely on nexus mods; that way the pre patch 5 Minthara fan club and the patch 5 Minthara fan club can both be satisfied and get the experiences that they want.

Ok. But we do not have the whole game on our hands yet. You can't fill all the story holes in 1st act, you'll leave nothing for the rest.
We do not even have the whole 1st act, by the way.

The previous hair was short as well, yes. But for me It just seemed too messy for HER hairstyle. She maybe not obsessed with her looks, but she doesn't strike me as someone who would allow the underlings to see her in a bad shape. So now we at least have something that is both short and keept in order.
I'm seeing her face as not perfect from the start and totally agree with criticism on the new make up. So I still hope that Larian will improve elves appreances in general and her appearance in particular.
With all respect to modding community I prefer my RPGs vanilla and if I feel like I can't enjoy it in vanilla then I see it as an oversight on developers side.

I was trying to track down your quotes but not having much luck. First because I was looking at 5E sources. Then I realised that you're quoting a 2003 book and 2003 must of course be 3E. Right.

So then I find that darn book and guess what? It says nothing about selective breeding nor does it quote any gobbo about how the beautiful Drow can get away with things. It simply is not in that particular book, and given the amount of times you've tried quoting it for those things, we're well past accidental misquote.

But where does that stuff come from, then? Because surely you didn't make it up, right? Turns out it comes from a wiki fansite.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Let's have the whole bit, not just the little lines you've cut away.

In many ways, the drow resembled other elves[23] or eladrin.[24] Their bodies were wiry and athletic,[23] while their faces were chiseled and attractive,[24] though they were shorter and thinner than other elven sub-races.[9][25][10] Due to a process of selective breeding that lasted for several generations,[9] the drow (especially nobles)[25] looked attractive[24] even in comparison to other elven subraces.[26] Though their alluring appearance could be used for seduction, it was more often utilized to instill fear.[24] According to the goblin Nojheim, the beauty standards of the surface races made them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance.[27]

All those bracketed numbers are references and we can thus assume that whomever wrote this section of the Wiki took inspiration from the works mentioned in those references. But in order to check it and actually have confidence in the accuracy of this summary, we have to backtrack to the source. Given the amount of references, that's a fair bit of work. Since you've gotten your quotes so catastrophically wrong, I reckon we can assume that didn't bother doing that at all.

Personally, I was extremely curious what that gobbo reference was about, so I clicked the link. Yes, this is a wiki, and there's a link in the gobbo-name, taking us to a page dedicated to that particular gobbo, where we even get the context of the quote. Turns out, he was talking to someone called Drizz't and they were talking about prejudice, and then the gobbo said that Drizz't had it easier because he was pretty. As in, he didn't have the face of a gobbo. That's literally all the Drow beauty implied by what Nojheim said.

Drow are prettier than gobbos, shocking news at 11! Not really your fault that Mr Wiki-writer messed up, but he did mess up by including this little tidbit as suggestive of Drow being particularly pretty. And you walked right into it. You didn't even have to find the source book here, all you had to do was click on a link.

I was also curious about that selective "breeding for pretty for several generations" thing too, because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You cannot do selective breeding for "several generations" and really hope to have a whole lot of impact on anything and the time scale of the setting means that if it's just for some generations then the effect would get watered out fairly quickly afterwards. Turns out that the wiki references not Races of Faerun, like you've been claiming, but rather the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition, page 13.

Here's what the campaign setting actually says on page 13:
Racial Abilities: Drow have all the elven racial traits listed given in Chapter 2 of the Player’s Handbook except as follows:
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. The drow have ruthlessly selected for agility, intelligence, and force of personality over generations.

What's that? Force of personality? That does not sound much like selectively breeding for attractiveness, does it now?

This is the best post on the internet

am i crazy? is there anything different about her other than her hairstyle?

You are not crazy.

They gave her shorter hair (which is now unique and not the same hairstyle as other npcs), new eyeshadow, and a different outfit. Her face is exactly the same middle~aged grumpy lady face it has always been.

I agree i liked her Appearance more before Patch 5. More feminine looking, so to say.
But i also like her now more "Rogue-looking" Appearance. Like some Outcast who casts Comfort aside to make it better through the harsh Wilderness and so on.

However,
if there "should" be an Option in the finished Game that People "could DECIDE" which Look they want for which Character,

or if People could later on "mod" that the she looks like before -> i would have nothing against that.

After Zellin's input, I REALLY like her new look better. It fits more. She's right. Minthara is not there to be some sexy, messy boy toy. She's evil, aggressive, and kinda insane. I like her best of all the villains in EA, and I wouldn't want them to make her some seductress flaunting her feminine bits.

She is a cleric of the Absolute, wholly devoted and willing to do anything for her new goddess.

Can you imagine? "omg, i need to make sure my hair is long and styled and i should put on my 6 inch heels and fishnets for the absolute when i'm leading this goblin army against the druids!"

Her hair was never long; it was medium length to short length and her attire is still a ringmail; some players just have a preference for Minthara's first iteration and a few months ago I don't remember anyone claiming that pre patch 5 Minthara was at all sexualized.

Maybe, but there are players for whom Minthara's hairstyle and appearance, the color of the chain mail is the MAIN thing in the game ;D
Larian needs to be made so that everyone likes. Possibly in-game customization choices so players can vote on an option.
Perhaps a special development team meeting is needed regarding the hairstyle and color of the armor. Blue is more beautiful, red emphasizes her aggression

She looks like a young dude, to be honest.

I see that too; I can't help but agree.

You quoted something saying that the beauty standards of the surface races make them prone to turn a blind eye to the deeds of the drow, showing them greater leniency and acceptance (something that doesn't come across at all in any of the books or material) not that they "were selectively bred to seduce surface races". Congrats, not only did you take two unrelated quotes and smash them together in some attempt to make it look like you were correct in assuming they were selectively bred for seducing surface races, but you were an asshole while doing it. Good job. This is why your thread is falling apart by the way, maybe try responding with some actual respect and openness for discussion instead of just knee jerk being a dick.

Sometimes it blows my mind how much we lose it on these threads. It's not all that.

1. If Minthara is the norm Drow of the game, and in Act 2 we reach Moonrise and see a ton of Drow with her short hair look, and such, it STILL wouldn't make a difference. They are ALL cultists of the Absolute and will do whatever the Absolute wants. If the Absolute wants them all to paint their faces with pink pokadots, that's what they're gonna do. It doesn't matter WHAT normal Drow society does. Absolute (ahem Larian ahem) don't care.

2. I get it that people like her previous look better. It's a matter of opinion. That's fine. I got no problems with someone who says they liked the other Minthara better. I think new fits better, but I'm not opposed to original coming back or them trying yet another look. This shouldn't make or break the game, but for some it might. Imagine someone taking a beloved character like Darth Vader and changing his whole look. That's what this is for some people. The new look just feels wrong to them.

3. Whether a Drow is typically long hair or not, wears makeup, etc., absolutely nothing says they ALL have to be that way. In fact, D&D has always encouraged creating your own, unique characters. Want a Drow with short hair Go ahead. Just because someone somewhere created a lore that Drow typically have long hair and dress seductively doesn't mean that ALL Drow everywhere throughout all time MUST have long hair and dress like prostitutes. They don't have to appear feminine. They don't have to be a certain way at all.

That's ridiculous. There is always someone who won't like something.

There is a better and more sensible way: modding! There is always some desire to "cute up" NPCs.

" you were an asshole..." how sad. Well, sunshine, I don't care about your feelings. If you weren't distracted by your feelings maybe you would not have such wrong conclusions.

Anyway, the fact is Larian's visual design choices on Minthara as well as some other things are not parallel to the lore and they break immersion at least for some of us. Is it a big deal? Maybe, proly not. We'll see.

Oh Mintharas current looks break the immersion FOR ME absolutely 100% - this is not how "Drow" look like!

And if there is not at least a mention as to why Minthara would tolerate that her hair looks like that of a screeching Banshee now, I will not tolerate it.
BEFORE WAS GOOD, what we have now is a nightmare!
In all kinds of artworks, canon official one's and fanworks, Drow tend to show typical styles & characteristics.

Appart from their clothes style, they like to grow their vibrant elven heritage hair out, which stays rich & vigorous for centurys, down to the tips who might as well reach their ankles!

Elves are monsters of lifeforce and Drows are no exceptions!
Specially the Drow might feel additionally superior to 'pet-races' because of their long lives.
Everything that they can have, what others Races cannot have, they might enhance & support to the maximum.
One of that being their smooth, long hair!

Not that Mintharas hair looked that gorgeous or long to begin with.
But what we have now is a catastrophe and an insult!
And I smell the stench of real life, modern day political & ethical ideologies behind it.