Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

For me what made the first PF boring was the forced Kingdom management, that thing was boring, badly designed, and if turned auto mode could lock even main quests. I hated that, and guess what, we have a similar thing on WOTR. Here's hoping they've learned something, I did a little, but so far I can't confirm how much I will dislike it. Just that I already dislike it.

Max level in the game code of Dos2 is 35 (though that is because of crashing due to an integer limit), though it doesn't follow PHB so any level cap there is arbitrary. I can also think of many other purposes of a DLC other than meeting a level cap. I'm only saying I find DLC unlikely, as Larian is in my opinion more into making a complete game for what it aims to do, to begin with. But who knows. I'm not opposed to seeing content all the way to max level in D&D

Well BG3 will not have max level 20 or 35 at full release. Please read this I did answer this when someone guess that max level is 12-16. At one point Larian said max level will be level 10. However later they said that MAYBE a bit more. A bit more whatever that is (and it was maybe) is not level 20. They could of course with an expanison after full release make max level to 20.

Sven from Larian said this about full release date. We are very lucky if BG3 will be released in during 2022 and not year 2023.
Of course in worst case they could say during year 2023 that no sorry this will be relased 2024.

However my release date guess is based on what Sven from Larian did say in year 2021.

Probably because it wasn't.

Another big difference between BG3 and WotR is how the main character matter in the story.

In BG3 after 30 hours the main character has nothing special. He has no story, no background, nothing else to do or think about,... You're just playing the role of someone that has no role.

WotR introduce a very interresting story. Everyone has it's role in it. Every characters and companions are involved for a reason or another into this war and so is your main. From the beginning to the end every characters write its part of the stories / main quest / side quest.

The main character does not write a side quest but he's reacting a lot to others and he's writing the main story more...
Choosing a mythic path with it's own game/role play makes him very interresting (the commander of the fifth crusade, is that not epic ?)

In BG3 the main character has no background and no story except the same than everyone else.

20+ hours is too late to introduce the main character's specific role in the story. Owlcat understand it and introduce it right at the beginning. Larian does not and as a result, Tav is mercenary in the story.

I disagree. It's the same in DOS2 when playing as a customizable character, what I felt was freedom, freedom to do whatever the hell I wanted, take decisions I wanted without the whole, hmm, that doesn't fit this character, or having these choices doesn't even make sense, etc. I like the whole no background hero, because this way it's up to me, not the developer to create one.

However, you should also have in mind that no background is done yet, for any character, even the origin, this is something we will get at the full game, which seems to be a thing ppl is forgetting so much around here. We are on EA and have barely ACT1 complete, and ppl already want to judge or make comparison with games that are practically finished and days of release.

Freedom of what ?

Freedom of answering and rolling dices because you choose to speak with your main rather than someone else ?


I agree that Larian make a good job with how quests can be solved, sometimes depending your class or your race... It's very impressive and I'm still discovering new things.

But it does not prevent to have a specific role in the story. Like Shadowheart with it's artefact in exemple.
He could in exemple be the only one to make dreams and have special powers... We'll discover why later.

Now your character does not matter at all.
If you're not in the story, the story remains the same.
Why even play this character ?

You're not writing anything else than what is planned except for details. That's cool, but it's still details that does not make your character look invested in his quest. He's just another guy with a tadpole in it's head that does not find a cure and that's going to travel to the moonrise tower with his 10 mates.

You're even not really the leader or something.
You're just nothing. Just random Tav that has the exact same story as everyone else.

If this isn't freedom for you, to change from minor to big things, because your choices affect everyone around you in some way. I don't know what else to tell you. If what you want is already start doing choices that will affect the whole world like some legendary hero when you just started a game, I... have no idea how to respond to that too.
And if you think your Tav is nothing, that on you. I think my Tav is amazing and so far my favorite character in the game.

If your Tav didn't have an attractive avatar, what makes your Tav amazing? and why are they your favorite character in the game?

Well, if such an empty character is your favorite that's up to you.

Shadowheart with his artefact does not impact the whole world.
And if the artefact was in Tav's pocket for a reason we'll discover later it wouldn't have changed the world. Just the story of the artefact that would have needed to be a bit more different.

If you were the only character to make those dreams and have those powers, it wouldn't change the world at all.

I don't even understand why you're talking about legendary heroes.

Your Tav is not amazing. He's just the same as every origin character. He has the exact same story except that he does not have any side story. He's not special at all in Larian's campaign, he's only in your head.

Sigh... just go play whatever makes you feel good.

Interresting.

He wasn't disagreeing with you about the freedom thing. What he was saying is that this freedom shouldn't prevent your main character from having some sort of background so that the player feels like the story is about their character, that they *matter*, which, from what I can tell, is something BG3 isn't quite conveying. I think it's useful to take an example here. In BG1 when you start the game you discover that someone is hunting you and wants you dead but you don't know why. That makes you special. And it is hinted via conversations with NPCs and the journal that it seems something bigger is going on and somehow you are part of it. The game makes you feel you have a role in this story, just not exactly how. This doesn't prevent you from being able to be whoever you want, picking whatever dialog choices you want, etc. I haven't played BG3 EA but from what I've gathered some are saying that they lack this kind of impression of a "role" when playing BG3. You have the same tadpole thing as a bunch of other people, and there isn't anything that makes you more special than them - if you're taken out of the story there will still be a bunch of people with the tadpole thing for the bad guys to hunt.

@Terminator2020 larion did do a post saying the level count would be 11+ on the live release health break points could be seen at 12 / 16 In most cases feel it would come down to where they feel the break points would best fit to the levels vs class that came off the initial feedback being that level 10 felt underwhelming from there original tests. 12/16 are optimal with multi classing however if you wanted to look expansion wise 12 is better for optional DLC content. It was confirmed unless they went back on there word to be at least 11+ so I would lean more to 12 as that options 2 DLC content patches being optimistic. I dont see them doing 20 even if they have supposedly worked out how to best use the wish spell.

Regarding the release date they did say 2022 however I would think most likely based on rate of content looking closer to 2023 or even later which is not really a good sign IMO feels like they are focused to much on fine details rather than getting initial content functioning then fine tuning after the initial core content is built. Re-tuning story ect over time while more game options are available will bring more replays over time rather than focusing so much time retuning your creating more dead time / down time IMO for players small story changes with a lack of options coming from someone with over 400 hours play time on the game. Replaying again just doesnt feel worth it without like more mixed options for a couple of small changes. But again that can be subjective as my perspective will differ from some people.

@Saito Hikari - Honestly the classes vs party size has a huge factor on options for replaying I personally like having about 2 of the npcs in the party for most of the quest line stuff but with a 4 person party I often cut it to 1 and use multi player in its current state to resolve not having access to mercenaries. I just have pre-constructed lists for party members i send the numbers to friends they take 5 minutes and create the mercenary version of characters for me. However given full release with BG 3 and access to mercenarys I would probably tend heavily on multi-classing without level 20 access I would not feel as tempted to full class a specific class.

Having access to 6 party members creates more mix match combinations more things that you could explore the game with more builds you could optimize in different plays. Because your going to be able to build up different builds and re-explore those builds more you also going to feel better bringing more npcs with the previous build most of my time going to camp was just changing npc's for different sections of the game. Which would be a time saver having a larger party. I also feel that would be more expansive if they explored good vs evil options with companions which some people dont like because they want every companion but that does create options to play the game different ways and having that party size larger creates more times you can build your party the way you want and still enjoy the companion stories and interactions. Also everyone has there own way they like to play there parties myself I tend to a much heavier melee design in bg 3 often using a couple ranged attacks to reduce health and then doing big bust melee rounds. But its all flavor and there are easy ways to abuse ranged mechanics with level limitations.

Pathfinder is kind of a lot more difficult to develop really strong melee due to touch AC / vs normal AC mechanics and the way that pathfinder tends to develop a lot of the late game fights vs 5E where that mechanic is less of an issue. Its one of the issues with older mechanics not being as balanced class to class. But at casual playthroughs its not as much of an issue you can still enjoy playing the way you want a lot more so without planning for those more difficult fights.

Commenting on max levels if optional rules were used there are ways to kind of extend to level 25 which is more kind of level 30 as there is an optional rules book out there for 5e that does have level 21-25 as well as how to impliment epic boons for an additional sudo 5 levels so its kind of like level 30. But there is nothing that goes beyond that currently effective for 5E. Vs Pathfinder which there is an epic rules book that has no level limit. Similar to never winter which i believe has the ability to go up to level 40. No one really has ever tried to go beyond that on a pc game as really after around level 25-30 creating challenging fights just gets to be extremely pressing as your pretty much talking instant death effects in a lot of cases. Even over 15-16 its very challenging to create good high level encounters for players. A lot of Dungeon masters have difficulties after level 10. Which is why the majority of campaigns end around 10-12 for groups of people.

I have seen it where DM's have been like this is going to kill you if your not careful against parties of level 10 characters and utterly flopping against 1-2 over tuned characters. You can pretty easily pump out 100 damage in a turn with a level 10 character optimized. Which makes encounters very hard to balance without making the encounters very very difficult.

Looking at BG 3 I honestly think the minotaurs currently feel more like a level 5-6 encounter for most people where the spider felt that way more so in the initial play through. When I did that encounter during patch 4 vs the spider I cleared it without taking damage. Where the Minotaur encounter which i underestimated after my first playthrough I actually had to use a rez scroll on one character. With an optimized party.

i am checking out all the latest WOTR youtube videos now. I must say it looks incredible.

Has anyone played Kingmaker? I am thinking about playing it now i have never played it before? I loved DOS2 and Pillars Deadfire how does it compare to those 2?

What??? I am from Finland Europe and I do not understand what all you say sorry.
Right Tuco did not undertand as is from Italy Europe and one time did not understand.

Whatever you think max level is 12-16 and I think max level is 10-14. Whatever we will see
what is max level.

"Regarding the release date they did say 2022"
No last time they did say we are lucky if it in 2022 and during 2023.


Sven from Larian said this about full release date. We are very lucky if BG3 will be released in during 2022 and not year 2023.
Of course in worst case they could say during year 2023 that no sorry this will be relased 2024.

However my release date guess is based on what Sven from Larian did say in year 2021.

Can you please show me where Sven said that "we will be lucky if released in 2022?" This is not true all he said was "we are doing our best to have it released by the end of 2022".

Do I dont need to find that... you can find when during 2021 they did say year 2022.

EDIT I believe they have removed release date saying from the videos.
It was not in Panel 3 from hell or Bread and Butter video anymore. Likely they edited it and removed saying release date year.
I can not find anything. Well and any promise before year 2021 I consider bullshit if it is about release date.

We could as well then say UNKOWN release date... but sorry I dont believe it is during year 2022 unless very end of it like October-December 2022. I still also keep guess January-Decmber 2023 as good valid guess.

After playing a bunch of WotR, I find it incredibly difficult to go back to Kingmaker. WotR even in its unfinished state is a better game than Kingmaker in virtually every conceivable way. The leap in quality is comparable to the jump between DOS1 -> DOS2. Perhaps even beyond that, as DOS2 sacrificed quite a few things from DOS1 (as in crafting and actual dangerous exploration) in order to focus on the combat design, while WotR didn't really sacrifice much of anything at all.

Like I already have 275+ hours across all of the alpha and beta phases of WotR. I only have 180+ hours across my Kingmaker playthroughs in comparison.

If you do intend to get into Kingmaker, there's a few things you'll probably find very questionable, the kingdom management system foremost among them. But it adds quite a lot of weight to the narrative, IMO. The first time I played through the game, the combination of the aytpical story along with the gameplay structure was quite intriguing, and I did feel a great sense of accomplishment when advancing into each chapter, much more than I had felt in any cRPG previously.


I think this entire argument should be approached from a different angle. In WotR, your player character is really just a nobody that got railroaded into being something special due to factors also completely out of their control if you really want to deeply analyze it. Though there is one fundamental difference there, the powers you have are truly yours to mold into whatever way you see fit. It's too early to see if you can do anything similar with the tadpoles, or if it's going to be a binary 'get rid of them ASAP or embrace them' thing.

Anyway, the real point is that the true difference is in the presentation, and it all goes back to how the party interacts with each other and the rest of the world - and everyone already knows my thoughts on how WotR is leagues ahead of BG3, if not all other cRPGs thus far in this category. Even though your character's story is somewhat railroaded as hell in WotR outside of choice of mythic path, the actual dialogue options you can have are quite varied since it's a game that places quite a lot of emphasis on alignment. The way that the party members and supporting cast interact with you and each other makes your character feel like someone that is an integral part of the group for very personal reasons other than being the obligatory party leader, and it gives off the impression that you and the rest of the cast have always been a part of that world, no matter how differently you fight or role play in each playthrough.

BG3's party in comparison feels like a group of annoying tourists getting into everybody's business and making up plans as they go along in comparison.

That said, BG3 -can- stand out in different ways in this category, without having to play follow the leader in regards to the other cRPGs or something. There are ways to add a lot of subtle reactivity that goes a long way towards reinforcing a character's development. For one, certain party members could have unique combat lines when attacking or encountering specific enemy types. Wyll could have quite a bit to say about the goblins he's attacking. Or Gale could be utterly freaked out by the Beholders. Lae'zel could try to act tough in front of the Minotaurs, and so on.

Although once again, I am someone who places great value in world building and how it is presented, enough to pick up and care greatly about such subtle means of character development and world presentation. And honestly, BG3 hasn't really done very well in the world presentation part, as it doesn't really convey the sheer scale of the setting or give you any reason to care about anything beyond your immediate surroundings. Though this will likely change over time, considering the current setting isn't very conducive to such things.