Solasta has a good UI, intuitive and no clutter. It's a pretty good example of a functional UI for a D&D game. Larian took the MMO hotbar approach for BG3 and it just doesn't work with D&D. They should play other D&D titles and find out what works well.
Most important improvement for BG3 would be to create a separate UI for spellcasting. D&D has so many spells with memorized selections changing the hotbar just doesn't work. This will be more and more evident with each level up, especially after level 4.
Secondly, temporary actions need to go where other actions are so they are intuitively found. Stuff like Activate Witch Bolt, Hurl Produce flame etc. Putting them in a random place and making players search for them is awful UI design.
Then I would like to see consumable items and class/item abilities getting their own sorting. It's very important to be able to tell at a glance which Short Rest and Long Rest abilities you still have available before rest. So you will have an idea how spent you are and when to rest. You will never be able to tell that from a hotbar.
Ragnarok has a particularly pointed dislike for Solasta's UI, and an equally fervent love of massively icon-filled hotbars that uniformly hold anything and everything without any form of distinction, and he's never really explained the reasoning behind this, or said exactly what it is about these methods he does and doesn't like, as far as I'm aware of... though maybe this time...?
The current UI in BG3 has many criticisms routinely levied against it, but I feel the biggest issue right now is that for all its freedom, it doesn't actually listen to what you do with it - it adds and removes skills and skill icons willy-nilly, and you cannot tell it not to. If you have some things that aren't on the bars because you took them off and don't want them there, it will put them back on, at every opportunity, and there's nothing you can do to stop it from doing this. No, the filters in the options menu don't work properly, and they never have, and even if they did, that still wouldn't cover the behaviour that is the greatest problem here.
it will put them back on, at every opportunity, and there's nothing you can do to stop it from doing this. No, the filters in the options menu don't work properly, and they never have, and even if they did, that still wouldn't cover the behaviour that is the greatest problem here.
I am not quite sure what you are refering to. I set in options so it won't add anything to the hotbar automatically, other then skills and it works as advertised. Those skills, of course still need to be organised and items sorted into containers and assigned to hotbar manually. It's tedious, tiring, unnecessary and will become a nightmare once one bar won't be enough to space out and hold all that I want, but I didn't find any misbehaving in the actual funcionality provided.
Once you increase the number of spells you can cast at later levels, the hotbar UI will become just as nasty time consuming as the Inventory Management is right now. You will CONSTANTLY have to search for the spells, etc. you want to use and it will slow combat down TREMENDOUSLY.
Wanna cast fireball? It's on bar 3 of the hotbar next to throw brine shell. Wanna use chain lightning? Um... I think that was put on bar 7... Or was it 8... I think it was next to Superior Healing Potions... Or was it next to Potion of Hill Giant Strength. Maybe I should move it to hotbar 4 so it's next to lightning bolt.
Solasta UI. I want to cast Chain Lightning. Click spells, click Chain Lightning listed under it's appropriate level. Done.
I am not quite sure what you are refering to. I set in options so it won't add anything to the hotbar automatically, other then skills and it works as advertised.
Try this with a spellcaster:
1) Take your cantrips, domain spells if you have them, level 1 class abilities, and any other 'always memorised' or 'always prepared' spells off your bar.
2) Save your game (Remember this point: saving with your bars blank)
3) Go to prepare your spells and change your prepared spells - unmemorise one spell.
-> The game will immeidately fill your bar up will ALL of the cantrips, always-memorised spells and class abilities you just pulled off, dumping them into the nearest available slots. -> There is NO way to tell the game NOT to do this, and NO way to PREVENT it doing this. -> It will do this ANY time and EVERY time you interract with your hot bars in any way, and nothing you can do about it.
4) Pull all the unwanted things back off the bar.
5) Now memorise another spell.
-> Pop, they're all back again. Can't stop it.
6) Load your save game, that game that you saved with your bars set up in a specific way that did not include those cantrips and class abilities.
-> Pop, they're all there, cluttering up your bar as soon as the game loads in.
Before beta this is what the ui looked like, truthfully would rather have this than what we have now.
These are the changes I would do, hide minimap tab, remove center portrait (the highlight already gives enough enphasis on what character you are on), move toggles to a button above bar that expands up, your not going to be using these that often, all the actions on the left can be condensed into one button with a pop up and thrown with the other buttons to the right, recenter and expand number of slots.
Edit* oh almost forgot, Solasta ui looks like a mobile game.
Sorting within the hotbar is a giant pain in the arse. I want to keep it organized by spells, actions, potions, items. This becomes particularly cumbersome when you learn a new spell and have to reorganize the whole damned thing, and even more so when you remove an item that gives you a power or skill (like the speak to the dead skill necklace) and some random potion gets put in there. I really wish you could set an auto sort by category and then rearrange within those categories as u like. Or something like that.
NWN 1 and 2 did hotbars too, and I didn't like them. At least they allowed you to hit a hotkey, though, and pull open a spell list window detailing spells per level. With BG3, I am constantly searching for spells and abilities.
That said, it's not terrible, yet, but it's not good, and I truly worry about hotbar management after EA. It's like item management. It's not bad at first, but by mid to late EA, it becomes REALLY tedious and annoying, and I spend more time managing than playing. It gets to the point where I no longer care what I pick up or whatever. I just don't want to be bothered by it anymore.
The hotbar will be similar. It'll get so cluttered. I really don't like it.
he's never really explained the reasoning behind this, or said exactly what it is about these methods he does and doesn't like, as far as I'm aware of... though maybe this time...?
Mostly that i can sort things however i see fit ... that is HUGE plus for me, since i have a little deviation in this matter, i hate autosort and believe that person who maded is should burn in hells. :-/ Also when i do (and if they stay that way ) its much easier, and faster for me to orient in that UI ... personaly i use hotbar in Heroes of Might and Magic aswell, for the spells i use most often ... And for the third time (is that the expression in english too?) im used for hotbar, many games i play ses them so ... its more friendly for me, than lear to orient in something entirely new with every single game. :-/
//Edit:
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Solasta's UI a mess... Seriously Ragnarok I know you like hotbar but don't call a mess a UI that sort everything really well lol.
I have no doubt it will suits you well, as long as you like their sorting. I dont. Simple as that.
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Hotbars are just fine in mmorpg... Not in good crpg.
Yeah, who ever heard about some good & sucesfull CRPG game with hotbar ...
Like Heroes of Might and Magic, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Diablo, Divinity, etc. etc. Totally not a thing for this kind of games.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You will CONSTANTLY have to search for the spells, etc.
Odd ... i never did. Maybe i just maintain my hotbar order.
You know the funny thing with hotbar is that its not placing things "randomly" as most people claim here ... its placing temporary spells to first slot aviable ... So basicaly if you want to maintain the order on your hotbar, one of easiest thigs you need to do, is keep some slot empty for them.
For example ... When i play my Warlock, i have Hex placed in second row of hotbar, since you really use it only once per long rest ... but i keep my second place on first row empty, so Hex-Recast every time gets right there and i have it prepared as close to my hand as possible. Simmilar to when i play my Wizard using Witch Bolt ... i simply keep one of first slots empty, so recast gets right there. Or Ranger with Hunter's Mark ... surely you get the idea. Works like a charm.
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wanna cast fireball? It's on bar 3 of the hotbar next to throw brine shell. Wanna use chain lightning? Um... I think that was put on bar 7... Or was it 8... I think it was next to Superior Healing Potions... Or was it next to Potion of Hill Giant Strength. Maybe I should move it to hotbar 4 so it's next to lightning bolt.
Honestly if you have such mess on your hotbar, its not its fault.
Originally Posted by Niara
Try this with a spellcaster:
1) Take your cantrips, domain spells if you have them, level 1 class abilities, and any other 'always memorised' or 'always prepared' spells off your bar.
2) Save your game (Remember this point: saving with your bars blank)
3) Go to prepare your spells and change your prepared spells - unmemorise one spell.
-> The game will immeidately fill your bar up will ALL of the cantrips, always-memorised spells and class abilities you just pulled off, dumping them into the nearest available slots. -> There is NO way to tell the game NOT to do this, and NO way to PREVENT it doing this. -> It will do this ANY time and EVERY time you interract with your hot bars in any way, and nothing you can do about it.
4) Pull all the unwanted things back off the bar.
5) Now memorise another spell.
-> Pop, they're all back again. Can't stop it.
6) Load your save game, that game that you saved with your bars set up in a specific way that did not include those cantrips and class abilities.
-> Pop, they're all there, cluttering up your bar as soon as the game loads in.
This is interesting ... I never had such problem, since i use Hotbar only for those spells i do use often ...
So my eperience is a little different. For example Shadowheart's Turn Undead is very situational spell ... as far as i know, so far in EA its usefull in few combats only (if i didnt forget any) one in the crypt, and another one in underdark against Duergar, or Myconids, oh and in the basement under Blighted Willage ...
Therefore: 1) Simply put it in paige 2(/3/4) ... game is satisfied bcs spell is on hotbar ... and i dont have to deal with it anymore ... and IF i ever want to use it, all i need to do is to click on that little arrow on right side.
2) Save
3) Unmemorise one spell
4) / (Nothing here for me since game does nothing)
5) Memorise another spell ... and place it whenever i want to.
6) Load and have bars just the way i want them.
---------------------------------
Its true tho that hotbars would use some upgrades ... And im still pretty sure that my previous post in other threat sumarized it quite well ... so:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Personaly i believe that Hotbar needs only few tweaks, and can be completely working for everyone ...
- Firt of all, they certainly should make it bigger ... im not quite sure who in Larian was thinking that reduce size of hotbar to less than half (compared to first build we ever seen) is good idea. O_o (You can also notice that in that build, UI adressed several other problems like ... unecesary duplicity, or triplicity in combat, of your characters portraits ... the fact that you can easily have 5 members party without any colision with other UI, since party have its own space, etc. ... to put it simply, personaly i find this UI to be bzillion(its not typo) times better in every way.)
- Second, in this order is needed to strictly STOP spells from returning to hotbar ... its anyoning, its have no purpose, and if i throw away some spell from my bar, its bcs i dont want it there! So please, accept that Larian. Everything else can be adjusted in settings, but this problem remains even if you turn everything off. -_-
- Third, its totally needed for spells to SORT! Both in Popup Window, and in Spellbook ... What game do now its unforgiveable mess. :-/ And i honestly hate it, when you have two persons of same class, you can easily notice that spells in their spellbook are not sorted the same ... i honestly dont quite understand why, but i want to look and see ... not look, search, read tooltips, and then see. :-/ Its especialy anoying if you have two Warlocks, and your Hex types are sorted differently. -_- Make it alphabetical ffs. :-/
- Fourth(?), it would be nice if spells that can be re-cast would not require additional space on hotbar ... Perosnaly i love the idea that spells like Hex, Hunter's Mark, or Speak With dead ... would simply replace its usual casting icon with re-casting icon ... since you cast exactly the same spell minus spending spell slot ... there is no reason to create separate icon in another place for that. For other spells, wich have multiple possible uses, like Witch Bolt, or Produce flame ... pesonaly i would choose option to create popup-window menu, where you would have all possible uses ... So while you will keep concentration on Witch Bolt, you click on Witch Bolt icon and you see there: Free Wich bolt > level 1 > level 2 ... So while you will keep concentration(?) on produce flame cantrip, you click on your produce flame icon and you see there: Cancel flame > Throw flame (that is all isnt it? i cant help the feeling i forget some third option)
- Fifth, to please even some people (except the most pure antihotbar extremist) who would like to have dedicated UI ... I would either suggest allowing casting from Spellbook (wich can be even binded, that is another plus in my opinion) and possibility to add spellbook icon on hotbar ... wich should be quite easy, right now when you click on your spellbook in combat, it opens small version of your specific character spellbook, instead of all of them ... then you can by Left click prepare your spells (except you cant, since you are in combat), and by right click you can do the same ... simply allow us to cast when left clicked, and prepare spells by right click and VOILA! Spellcasting ui with possible binding is done! Or, bcs some people didnt like this idea in the past ... i would suggest multiple popup windows for them ... you click on spellcasting icon on hotbar > your spells will open, you click on spell > your spell levels will open, you click on spell level > you cast. ... I cant quite understand how can anyone find this effective way, but w/e.
And finaly, bcs this is allready quite long post for just repeating the same that was allready told in the past ... I would really, really, REALLY wish to have option to put in my hotbar both spells that will give me popup window with all spell levels, and spells that are specific spell level ... personaly i dont quite see the reason, why should i pick between Mage Armor level 1 and Mage Armor level 2, since it both give me litteraly same AC bonus ... therefore all i need in Mage Armor level 1, since i would never spend level 2 slot for it ... Need to choose spell level before every cast is not gamebreaking i know, but its anoying ... and personaly i find it unnecesary.
//edit: OH! One more little thing! Its not exactly hotbar related, but its about icons so i iclude it here ... I would also like to ask Larian to add spell level numbers on EVERY SINGLE SPELL ICON ... and in case of those POP-UP windows, give there lowest possible spell level ... Why? That is easy, its much easier for new player who dont yet memorized all spell levels (like myself ofcourse) to plan its futher move! Example: He can simply look and see that he have 2xLevel1 slots, and 1xLevel2 slots remaining ... then he (i mean i) look at his hotbar and see spells he have at his disposal ... and thinks: Well, i can cast this Level2 Magic Missiles, and if that bastard survives, i can easily use Misty Step to get out of his reach (you guessed right, he thinks that, bcs Misty Step have no spell level indication on his icon ... so he logicaly presumed that its level 1 spell) ... he cast his Magic Missiles, and he is screwed, since he cant use Misty Step anymore ... BUT (and its a big butt) ... if every single spell would have spell level indication on his icons (and preferable some indication for concentration in other corner) ... he simply look and see, without need to check tooltip of every single spell on his hotbar ... that if he wish to have possibility to run still prepared, he need to attack with level 1 Magic Missiles. Please let us fight against NPC ... not our own UI. :-/
Well, that is it. 7 relatively easy steppes to make Hotbar much better tool than it is.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/09/2109:31 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Thanks for elucidating a bit Ragnarok. I do want to point out, though, that what you're saying is that in order to not be harassed by the game doing something that you've made it obvious you don't want it to do, you, the player, need to impose a work-around, to trick the game system into not harassing you any more. That's not an acceptable solution.
It's also not a solution when you're a tenth level sorcerer and pages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 are ALL taken up, completely, with your spells and the various meta-magic combinations oftem - becasue at that point, each of your spells will likely need between five and sixteen(!!!) nearly-identical-looking buttons Each just to cover your options and metamagic options.
Here's an example:
You're a tenth level soreress who took Metamagic Adept at 8th level. You know 'Empower', 'Seeking', 'Subtle', 'Distant' and 'Twin' Metamagics. You know Chromatic Orb.
In the current game design and method, your hotbars will now need to contain:
That's ONE spell. You, at tenth level, know ten more as well, plus six cantrips, all of which can also have metamagic applied to them. They won't all be quite as slot greedy as good old chromatic orb, of course, but they'll each need a handful of extra buttons all to themselves.
The hotbar system on its own is just not tenable in any way for this.
Edit* oh almost forgot, Solasta ui looks like a mobile game.
Solasta's UI asthetic is usualy the main and only criticism that comes up... I don't think anyone suggest imitating the look of the thing - it's just the only example of a better functionality of 5e system.
Really anything else would do. While Solasta's decision to split Main and Bonus actions entirely, is interesting, I don't think Larian needs to go that far. Larian seemed to take a lot of lessons from Dragon Age: Origins (be it UI or control system) but they need to understand two things: 1) spell heavy classes will have too many spells at their disposal that will rotate in and out on regular basis - it will be impossible to fit them on the hotbar, and it's too much to manage after every level up long rest. Dragon Age was shallow and streamlined even compared to 5e. While organizing skills was also frustrating there to me, there were fewer spells total, not many useful items, and really no big consideration to make when stuffing spells on your hotbar. 2) Dragon Age and Divinity:OS1&2 doesn't use resources for most abilities - there is no spell level, action/bonus action to worry about. Only cool downs. Where an ability is in DA and D:OS1&2 doesn't matter, as all we need to be able to do is find it. In DnD we also need to worry about which resource it will consume, what other spells we might be prevented from casting if we use this spell now aka. how much of this resource we have, and which action goes with the spell. It is a more detailed system, and UI doesn't support it properly.
Mostly that i can sort things however i see fit ... that is HUGE plus for me, since i have a little deviation in this matter, i hate autosort and believe that person who maded is should burn in hells. :-/ Also when i do (and if they stay that way ) its much easier, and faster for me to orient in that UI ... personaly i use hotbar in Heroes of Might and Magic aswell, for the spells i use most often ... And for the third time (is that the expression in english too?) im used for hotbar, many games i play ses them so ... its more friendly for me, than lear to orient in something entirely new with every single game. :-/
There is no doubt a hotbar for most commonly used spells is handy. Most cRPG support that, even with a more traditional UI.
I will contest the last point - if a game uses different system I think it SHOULD use different UI. UI should support game systems, doing otherwise can lead to confusion, rather then learning which brings me to:
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Like Heroes of Might and Magic, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Diablo, Divinity, etc. etc. Totally not a thing for this kind of games.
That very much underlines the point I made in my previous post. Those are different systems. If all spells would use unified resource, or no resource, it would be less of a problem. Mass Effect/Diablo/HoM&M are different genres all together, with a handful of abilities, and not an entire party to manage. What works for one game type, won't work well for the other. In BG3 what level the skills are, and what action they use is vital - and it requires players to either memorize each spell, spent unnecessary time looking through spell descriptions, or manually organize UI to include those information at the glance. UI needs to highlight those be default, that would be simply good UI design.
I do want to point out, though, that what you're saying is that in order to not be harassed by the game doing something that you've made it obvious you don't want it to do, you, the player, need to impose a work-around, to trick the game system into not harassing you any more. That's not an acceptable solution.
Agreed! Myself i just expected that there is either some bug, or oversight in this matter ... and i would TOTALLY prefer thrown out spells to remain thrown out. As i said abowe, i totally prefer to sort hotbar the way I want it ...
I was just providing my own suggestion to work around the clearly clumsy system.
Originally Posted by Niara
You're a tenth level soreress who took Metamagic Adept at 8th level. You know 'Empower', 'Seeking', 'Subtle', 'Distant' and 'Twin' Metamagics. You know Chromatic Orb.
That's ONE spell. You, at tenth level, know ten more as well, plus six cantrips, all of which can also have metamagic applied to them. They won't all be quite as slot greedy as good old chromatic orb, of course, but they'll each need a handful of extra buttons all to themselves.
The hotbar system on its own is just not tenable in any way for this.
This is good point ...
But to be honest i actualy expect larian to implement this with metamagic being toggable effects that will affect "next spell casted"... simmilar to how Repelling blast invocation for Eldrich Blast works right now ... Meaning you will actualy have single button on your bar, wich will be Chromatic Orb ... once you click it, popup window will open where you pick spell level ... and either then another popup window will open, where you pick element (better in my eyes), or that will be included in first popup (that sounds a like a mess ). And your metamagic effects will be just on your reaction bar (wich i would LOVE to have option to unlock from its position and move ... or hide entirely ... and spread Hotbar to edge of my monitor instead having so huge dead space ) ... and you pick there wich you want to use before you start casting.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/09/2111:28 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
Pathfinder approach is probably best. One main customizable hotbar for your most commonly used spells and abilities, everything else automatically sorted away in separate collapsible tabs by spell level, abilities, and belt consumables.
![[Linked Image from cdn.wccftech.com]](https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/bg3_leak_4-scaled.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/RjchwZ1/bg3uistuff.png)
) its much easier, and faster for me to orient in that UI ... personaly i use hotbar in Heroes of Might and Magic aswell, for the spells i use most often ...
