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veteran
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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OK. I think this needs to be addressed. I love the game, love the overall story, etc., and I realize that we are still in EA, but the story is as confusing as heck. There are also a lot of discrepancies that need to be addressed. I've been trying my hardest to piece it all together in my fan fiction, but in doing so I find that it is way more challenging to do so than it should be. I understand that there is supposed to be some element of mystery, and that's good, but it shouldn't be this hard to piece together some of the more basic elements.
For example, at some points, it seems like Minthara and the goblins are out to destroy the druids' grove and have been for at least a little while; since they moved into the area. But then, there are some dialogues and conversations that make it seem like the ONLY reason Minthara wants to destroy the grove is because Aradin and his punk adventurers tried to loot the goblin camp. And so, Minthara is petty and wants to butcher the entire grove simply because Aradin and his group dared to try to loot the camp.
Another example is the Blighted Village. Some evidence indicates that the Blighted Village has been destroyed for over 100 years, since Ilyn Toth arrived and the Dark Justiciars, etc. The place is filled with decay and ruin and spider webs and such, implying that it has been a VERY long time since it was destroyed.
But then there is the paper flyer on the stone wall near the old school building. How did that survive for over 100 years? Also, where did all the fishermen come from on the beach if there is no village around that they came from? Is there another village somewhere in the area we don't know about? How come no one talks about this or explains this? Did those people live in Blighted Village? I mean, some on various forums have explained that the village was destroyed over 100 years ago but then resettled. However, if that's true, then why is the place SO unlived in? The apothecary has been left untouched since Ilyn Toth lived there. The schoolhouse has also been unused for over a century. Same with the blacksmith's shop.
And I know it's been mentioned before, but why on earth would Kith'rak Voss leave after finding out that Lae'zel and the rest of the companions have the weapon he's looking for. SURELY, he would just kill them and claim it for himself so that HE could gain all the glory and take all the credit for returning it. Why would he even consider allowing Baretha to claim such an honor? Makes no sense at all.
Anyway, I just think that it shouldn't take THIS much work to piece things together. Even if you want to keep things ambiguous, you can do it in a more clear way. For example, Zevlor could say, "Just before the ship crashed, we arrived here. We were on the road and attacked by gnolls. Then Halsin came along and led us here to safety." That makes it clear what happened and roughly when. If it took you 3 long rests to get to the place where you find out this information, you can assume the tieflings have been there for about 3 days. You aren't sitting there thinking, "Um... roughly how long have the tieflings been here? Has it been a month?... a week?... a day? How long ago did Halsin and the adventurers leave? Was it just before the nautiloid crashed? Seems like it probably should have been, but they make it seem like it may have been days since Halsin left the grove. Otherwise, why would Kagha have taken over as First Druid so quickly after he left? If Halsin was gone for days, though, why did it take Aradin and his adventurers so long to return? The gobbo camp is SUPER close, so shouldn't they have immediately run into all the goblins and chased out? After all, Aradin makes it seem like he was quite surprised to find so many goblins in the camp. Don't you think it would make sense that he'd have discovered just how many there were within, at most, thirty minutes after leaving the grove?
And what about the Harper camp? Was that from 100 years ago or more recent? If more recent, why is the skeleton SO long dead and picked clean? Why do all the texts imply that the harpers were in the area over 100 years ago, and there are no real signs that they've returned? But if 100 years ago, why is there fresh food in the barrels and crates?
So many questions! Nothing makes sense.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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Also, where did all the fishermen come from on the beach if there is no village around that they came from? I am pretty sure they mentioned they were swimming down the river when the mindflayer reached out to them. So they are not exactly from the area, and are looking for a way to get back on the river once you free them.
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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I'm talking about ALL the dead fishermen you see on the beach, etc. There are more than a dozen, and the MC makes it clear they were just fishing on the beach when it crashed.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Apr 2020
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They need better people for writing and world-building.
The premise is good, but the execution has been poor. Everything is so gamey right now.
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2021
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I'm just finding it harder and harder to reconcile what's happening in this game. Imps without resistance. Intellect devourers acting like noob thugs who don't devour intellect or body thief and they attack in groups instead of doing stealth pounce attacks on lone victims, fishermen just sitting on random beaches getting slaughtered by the nautiloid crash and devourers with no village of their own, a goblin base within 5 minutes jog from a supposedly super hidden grove that a blind granny could spot, a kith'rak with red dragon who won't claim his ultimate prize for himself, and PCs whose backstories all indicate that they should be 10 times tougher than level 1 noob scrubs, plus phase spiders porting around like wizard ninjas, sword spiders who are just giant spiders, a drow cleric who wears stupid ring mail instead of something better and attacks a grove in broad daylight even though she has sunlight sensitivity, a First Druid, Halsin, who is weaker than a level 4 nobody who is supposed to be some badbutt healer and who single handedly saves a group of refugee tieflings from a gnoll raid on the road but he gets caught by weakling goblins and thanks you for saving his life, a hobgoblin warlord who is lame and easy to kill, Zhents who try to kill you when you kill Ragzlin even though they have no real allegiance to him, a tiefling so injured by tyrites she can't kill them herself but she'll go it alone rather than join you even though she also has a tadpole in her head, a new First Druid who takes over REAL fast even though Halsin has only been gone a short time, and all the other druids just go along with it, no clear set timeline or order of events for anything including most subplots and background stories...
It's REALLY hard, but after 600 hours of gameplay and much research, I think I've finally figured out maybe what's happening for most things in the EA so I was able to complete the fan fic. However, even as I am going back through it to tweak in it so it's more story and less Tabletop game session, I am finding certain things just a bit of a stretch. It's hard to really reconcile it all.
Last edited by GM4Him; 11/09/21 05:20 AM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2017
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They need better people for writing and world-building. ^ People who know to pay attention to the little details.
"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
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veteran
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Joined: Oct 2020
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For example, at some points, it seems like Minthara and the goblins are out to destroy the druids' grove and have been for at least a little while; since they moved into the area. But then, there are some dialogues and conversations that make it seem like the ONLY reason Minthara wants to destroy the grove is because Aradin and his punk adventurers tried to loot the goblin camp. And so, Minthara is petty and wants to butcher the entire grove simply because Aradin and his group dared to try to loot the camp. I must have missed this ... I never seen any connection between Minthara that is inside their camp in ruined temple of Selune ... and Aradin, whos group was butchered by ambushing Goblins in Blighted Willage. O_o As far as i know: Goblins are in this land for quite some time, their base in Selune ruins is nothing new and since nobody lived close enough, nobody seem to care ... then cult of the Absolute came in, it must have ben quite recently change, since there sill is Maglubiyet loayal goblin (as far as i know goblins dont live too long, and also i dont quite believe they would keep him alive for more than few weeks, mostly months) ... they just recetnly raided Waukeen's Rest, with the help of Drow on the Absolute command ... Then there is that scene, when nautiloid shows on the sky ... Minthara and Dror both seem quite pleased with its arival and i honestly doubt they would be so happy about "yet another batch of True Souls coming to Moonrise Tower for enlightening (aka. brainwash)"  > Also notice that if you are talking with Findal (that unconcious halfling druid in secret passage) he tells you specificly that "they asked about *the Weapon*" ... since last patch we finaly know (like with 90% certainity) what weapon they were talking about ... that box, Shadowheart have ... wich would also explain why Minthara was so pleased with Nautiloid arival in previous scene ... she wasnt happy about True Souls delivery, she know that secret weapon of tremendous and mostly unknown power is on its way to her grasp. > Also notice that if you are talking with Andrick and Brynna (those siblins who was standing over dying True Soul Dwarf) they specificly tells you that they were "send to find whoever surived that crash" and once you reveal to them that you are the one they were searching for, they attack you. So it was clearly not rescue mission ... the only reasonable explanation here is that they were not after *people* but after something the *people* was carrying.  Yes, the box seem like obvious answer once again. Now, when basic hints are done ... lets see for Druid Grove: Aradin have obviously litteraly no idea about what is goin on around here, he specificly tells us that when he claims that he "was expecting easy coin and not army of bloody goblins" ... so, as it seems to me, he is there just for the Nightsong ... he knew that there is some entrance in the Underdark in Selune temple, and wanted to search for it, for obvious reasons ... sadly, he run into Goblin ambush in Blighted Willage and run for his life, once half of his group was butchered (if those corpses before gate to Blighted Willage was his people ... wich i presume they were, since if he is expeled from the Grove, you can meet him again by those corpses, probably collecting personal stuff and valuables, why would he do that otherwise? The ambushing goblins are just few steppes away ... he cant be so stupid, can he?) > So i would not search for any deeper meaning here ... there is one logical puzzle tho, since i dare to presume that whole map is actualy a lot wider and was only shrinked for gameplay purposes (read as: lorewise locations are much farther than they are in game) ... i wonder how far (or for how long) did Aradin and his three friends run? I mean sure, goblin tracers in your back can be great motivation to give the best possible exercise ... did they really managed to run through whole (lets say) daywalk and yet they were able to not just stand, but fight ... and didnt colapsed to the ground the first second battle was over? I applaud to their endurance. Also there is question how did both Aradins group and the pursuing goblins missed Andrick and Brynna ... but they might theoreticaly get there later. O_o Now why is Minthara attacking the Grove ... That question was allready answered i believe ... for one, she specificly tells us its a holy crusade, that the Absolute wants us to wipe out those herretics ... for two, the goblin that interrogated Findal tells us that they were after *the Weapon*, wich confrims even Andrick and Brynna ... and finaly there is that unfinished matter with Tiefling refugees ... So, this is simple i believe.  Minthara wants the box ... she know that it is somewhere around ... - we find some Goblin corpses around Nautiloid, so someone was send there to examine the crash site ... - we also find party searching for survivors ... - and we also find Sazza, last survivor of scouting party that was send to find the Grove, or were send to track Tiefling refugees and Grove was just a bonus ... but i dont believe that, since Minthara is specificaly talking about Grove when she stands over that warmap in her camp (what puzzles me here is why they even keep her alive, but Halsin was probably still there back then and believed that he can get some usefull info about the Absolute from her ... so that can be explained) Another example is the Blighted Village. Some evidence indicates that the Blighted Village has been destroyed for over 100 years, since Ilyn Toth arrived and the Dark Justiciars, etc. The place is filled with decay and ruin and spider webs and such, implying that it has been a VERY long time since it was destroyed.
But then there is the paper flyer on the stone wall near the old school building. How did that survive for over 100 years? The question here is in what condition that paper flyer is ... i mean, we do have books that are several centuries old too in our world. True they were probably not exposed to weather asn that flyer ... but on the other hand i do believe that there was never specificly told that it was "made of paper", was it? And even if ... i dunno about you, but im willing to forgive Larian one page of paper that is in surprisingly good shape for its age, if they need to give us information about something from the long forgotten past. Also, where did all the fishermen come from on the beach if there is no village around that they came from? Is there another village somewhere in the area we don't know about? How come no one talks about this or explains this? Did those people live in Blighted Village? No, one of the surviving fishermen explicitly tells us that they arrived on the river. O_o What more do you need? Do you realize that this world is not ending with borders of our gampleay map? There is obviously another settlement somewhere up the stream, and that is where they are from ... Mystery solved. I mean, some on various forums have explained that the village was destroyed over 100 years ago but then resettled. However, if that's true, then why is the place SO unlived in? The apothecary has been left untouched since Ilyn Toth lived there. The schoolhouse has also been unused for over a century. Same with the blacksmith's shop. I dont quite understand what are you asking ... The fact that village was "destroyed and resettled" seem like self-explanation to why is is "unlived" ... isnt it? O_o And I know it's been mentioned before, but why on earth would Kith'rak Voss leave after finding out that Lae'zel and the rest of the companions have the weapon he's looking for. SURELY, he would just kill them and claim it for himself so that HE could gain all the glory and take all the credit for returning it. Why would he even consider allowing Baretha to claim such an honor? Makes no sense at all. I give you +1 for this ... I mean its classical, almost cliché for bad guys to have this "you are not even worth my time, worm" attitude when they meet hero for first time ... but it was allways kinda stupid. It gets even worse, when you click the attack button before you even talk to him ... In that case, "honored, big, strong, fearless and hardened in combat Kith'rak, pride of Githyanki army" ... is simply running away from 4 random nobodies, on a FUCKING DRAGON!!! ... i cant imagine how could this scene become even more ridiculous. For example, Zevlor could say, "Just before the ship crashed, we arrived here. We were on the road and attacked by gnolls. Then Halsin came along and led us here to safety." That makes it clear what happened and roughly when. If it took you 3 long rests to get to the place where you find out this information, you can assume the tieflings have been there for about 3 days. You aren't sitting there thinking, "Um... roughly how long have the tieflings been here? Has it been a month?... a week?... a day? How long ago did Halsin and the adventurers leave? Was it just before the nautiloid crashed? Seems like it probably should have been, but they make it seem like it may have been days since Halsin left the grove. Otherwise, why would Kagha have taken over as First Druid so quickly after he left? If Halsin was gone for days, though, why did it take Aradin and his adventurers so long to return? The gobbo camp is SUPER close, so shouldn't they have immediately run into all the goblins and chased out? After all, Aradin makes it seem like he was quite surprised to find so many goblins in the camp. Don't you think it would make sense that he'd have discovered just how many there were within, at most, thirty minutes after leaving the grove? Silly me ... i was thinking how could i missed this information that really makes quite mess around there ... and i was just prepared to give you another +1 for finding something that dont make sence at all. Then i notice the word "could" ... wich explains it all. Its your suggestion isnt it? Well, that would probably not work at all. For one, Tieflings are quite established there for being in "just for 3 days" ... For two, it seems quite inprobable that so many druids would have "enough of them" just after 3 days ... they had to bother them for MUCH LONGER than that. Personaly i would say at least month ... maybe even few of them. And yes, Halsin would need to leave in less than a week, most likely few days ... i even believe it was mentioned by someone, but im not sure who ... i shall seach for it next time i will play, if i remember. But there is a lot of tidbits you can miss, if you dont talk with every single Druid inside the Grove. Why did it take Aradin and his adventurers so long to return, if goblin camp is so super close? Once again, self-explanatory answer would be: Bcs its not. I mean have you ever played any other game? WoW is great example ... you can fly over whole continent North to South in less than 30 minutes ... that would make awfully small planet. And what about the Harper camp? Was that from 100 years ago or more recent? If more recent, why is the skeleton SO long dead and picked clean? Why do all the texts imply that the harpers were in the area over 100 years ago, and there are no real signs that they've returned? But if 100 years ago, why is there fresh food in the barrels and crates? I dont have clear answer here ... Maybe except that food was bringed there a lot later (most likely recently) by someone who didnt mind to have bare bones exposed next to his observation spot. Since everything else, except the food seem to make sence to me.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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I must have missed this ...
I never seen any connection between Minthara that is inside their camp in ruined temple of Selune ... and Aradin, whos group was butchered by ambushing Goblins in Blighted Willage. O_o If you help Sazza return to Minthara, she explains that the whole reason the goblins attacked the grove when you first come to it was because Aradin and his crew, called by the goblins "The Looters" tried to sneak into the temple and down into the Underdark. They were caught attempting to break in and chased out of the goblin camp. Halsin was captured as they were fleeing. Minthara then refers to them constantly as "My Prey". She asks Sazza if they at least managed to find and kill her prey. At first, I thought maybe she was talking about YOU, the MC, but no. She only sent the goblin raiding party out there to kill the Looters. That was her prey, if you pay close enough attention to the convo. Never once does she mention that her prey is a True Soul or someone from the crashed ship, and she never shows any other concern or care about the grove other than to slaughter it because of The Looters. But then... oddly enough... she is BENT on destroying the grove when provided the opportunity, as if she no longer cares about The Looters at all and her main objective in the area is to kill everyone in the grove. So what exactly is Minthara's main objective? Is it to kill Aradin and his crew? Is it to find the True Souls who escaped the nautiloid? Is it to kill everyone in the grove? None of this is clear. As far as i know:
Goblins are in this land for quite some time, their base in Selune ruins is nothing new and since nobody lived close enough, nobody seem to care I don't think so. Halsin, if you notice in many books and things you pick up, has been in that area for over 100 years. He was there when the Dark Justiciars attacked and wiped out Moonhaven. He helped fight back the evil. I highly doubt he would have let some group of goblins to set up shop there and just increase in size without doing something about it. There are also other indications that the goblins just moved in recently. Listen to Minthara talk to her minions before actually triggering her dialogue scene. She is receiving reports from one of the goblins about the status of things in Bogrot. Seems they just set up shop there recently and something dark and mysterious is happening. They see things moving about in the night, implying Eliette, the Phase Spider Matriarch and her minions. Also, there is mention that there were no problems until recently. Then, suddenly, goblins in the temple and gnolls on the highway. ... then cult of the Absolute came in, it must have ben quite recently change, since there sill is Maglubiyet loayal goblin (as far as i know goblins dont live too long, and also i dont quite believe they would keep him alive for more than few weeks, mostly months) I don't think the Magubiyet loyalist goblin is an indication that they were set up in the temple for a long time. It just shows that the goblins followed Maglubiyet until the Absolute showed up. The goblin loyalist was a part of the tribe, and he refused to fall in line. Therefore, they locked him up. I took it as he was trying to lead a rebellion and turn the other goblins in his tribe against the Absolute. That's why he was there. ... they just recetnly raided Waukeen's Rest, with the help of Drow on the Absolute command ... Then there is that scene, when nautiloid shows on the sky ... Minthara and Dror both seem quite pleased with its arival and i honestly doubt they would be so happy about "yet another batch of True Souls coming to Moonrise Tower for enlightening (aka. brainwash)" > Also notice that if you are talking with Findal (that unconcious halfling druid in secret passage) he tells you specificly that "they asked about *the Weapon*" ... since last patch we finaly know (like with 90% certainity) what weapon they were talking about ... that box, Shadowheart have ... wich would also explain why Minthara was so pleased with Nautiloid arival in previous scene ... she wasnt happy about True Souls delivery, she know that secret weapon of tremendous and mostly unknown power is on its way to her grasp. > Also notice that if you are talking with Andrick and Brynna (those siblins who was standing over dying True Soul Dwarf) they specificly tells you that they were "send to find whoever surived that crash" and once you reveal to them that you are the one they were searching for, they attack you. So it was clearly not rescue mission ... the only reasonable explanation here is that they were not after *people* but after something the *people* was carrying. Yes, the box seem like obvious answer once again. You've kind of lost me here. Waukeen's Rest was attacked so the drow could kidnap the Duke and take him to Moonrise. Why? We don't know yet. What does this have to do with anything? This is one of the things that makes sense that they did seem to clearly work through in the game. In fact, I thought it was a nice touch that the goblins in the camp are half or totally drunk because they are celebrating after kidnapping the duke. But that has nothing to do with the story holes I'm talking about. Now, when basic hints are done ... lets see for Druid Grove:
Aradin have obviously litteraly no idea about what is goin on around here, he specificly tells us that when he claims that he "was expecting easy coin and not army of bloody goblins" Exactly. Indicating the goblins weren't supposed to be there and haven't been there that long. It was a big surprise. The wizard in Baldur's Gate knew nothing about goblins in the area, and more importantly, if they had been there for a long time, wouldn't Halsin have at least known about it? Does the man never pick up on anything going on in his territory that he wouldn't warn Aradin that the place is crawling with gobbos? ... so, as it seems to me, he is there just for the Nightsong ... he knew that there is some entrance in the Underdark in Selune temple, and wanted to search for it, for obvious reasons ... sadly, he run into Goblin ambush in Blighted Willage and run for his life, once half of his group was butchered (if those corpses before gate to Blighted Willage was his people ... wich i presume they were, since if he is expeled from the Grove, you can meet him again by those corpses, probably collecting personal stuff and valuables, why would he do that otherwise? The ambushing goblins are just few steppes away ... he cant be so stupid, can he?) > So i would not search for any deeper meaning here ... there is one logical puzzle tho, since i dare to presume that whole map is actualy a lot wider and was only shrinked for gameplay purposes (read as: lorewise locations are much farther than they are in game) ... i wonder how far (or for how long) did Aradin and his three friends run? I mean sure, goblin tracers in your back can be great motivation to give the best possible exercise ... did they really managed to run through whole (lets say) daywalk and yet they were able to not just stand, but fight ... and didnt colapsed to the ground the first second battle was over? I applaud to their endurance. Here again, a clear sign that the goblins were new to the area. First, Aradin and his crew were in the temple area when they encountered the goblins. They ran through Blighted Village to get back to the druid's grove. Yes, the dead were his companions just outside Blighted Village, but that wasn't where the initial fight occurred. But then, I explained that above. Minthara and Sazza and the goblins make it clear that Aradin was Looting the Camp, not Bogrot.
But let's just say, for a moment, that you're right and that they were attacked outside Blighted Village. Even MORE so, Aradin and his crew would have trotted for about 2 minutes to Blighted Village, gotten attacked, and they would have hoofed it back to the grove. Hardly any time would have taken place from the time Halsin left to the time they returned to the grove. However, Kagha has already firmly established herself as First Druid? That makes no sense at all. The story seems to imply that Halsin and Aradin and his crew have been gone for some time and that everyone has been expecting them to return but they haven't. What on God's Green Earth took them so freaking long? The goblin camp is literally a 10 minute jog from the grove entrance.
So, I've heard it said by more than one person, every foot on the game map is not actually a foot. It represents much more distance. However, that is SO not true. I can literally turn the game on Turn Based Mode and move 30 feet at a time all the way throughout the map one round at a time. That indicates to me that the game map for EA is literally as big as it is. The goblin camp is literally only 10 minutes from the grove. So I have a really hard time understanding why Aradin and Halsin took a REALLY long time to get to the temple only to discover it was overrun by goblins, Halsin gets captured and goblins chase Aradin all the way back to the gate. That should have all happened within maybe 30 minutes tops; not enough time for anyone to accept Kagha as the new First Druid because Halsin hasn't returned. Everyone would be like, "Whoa! Aradin's back! That was fast."
So were the goblins and drow in the temple already? Did they show up while Aradin and Halsin led the adventurers into the temple? Were they exploring around and suddenly out pops goblins and drow?
Nope, because Halsin ran into drow with Nettie and killed one. He was a True Soul. So Halsin knew there were goblins AND drow there, and yet he took Aradin and his crew into that temple anyway without warning them? He didn't say, "Hey Aradin. Um. Just a heads up. There's a million goblins in that temple." Well, it's clear he didn't warn Aradin because Aradin kept saying he was shocked at how many goblins there really were in there. Also there is question how did both Aradins group and the pursuing goblins missed Andrick and Brynna ... but they might theoreticaly get there later. O_o Ah geez! I hadn't even thought about that one. lol. Just another one that doesn't make sense. Also, as a side note, anyone ever notice that Andrick says that the nautiloid crashed off to the west? But the nautiloid is south of that position and the goblin camp is to the west. Hmmm. Andrick doesn't know his directions very well. Now why is Minthara attacking the Grove ...
That question was allready answered i believe ... for one, she specificly tells us its a holy crusade, that the Absolute wants us to wipe out those herretics ... for two, the goblin that interrogated Findal tells us that they were after *the Weapon*, wich confrims even Andrick and Brynna ... and finaly there is that unfinished matter with Tiefling refugees ... I do seem to recall that there was a dialogue where she called it a holy crusade. Interesting. I haven't triggered that one in awhile. Still, then that just proves my point again. If you choose one path, she is going to destroy the grove because she is convinced they are housing her prey. The next path, she's saying it's a holy crusade to wipe out the heretics. But you know? I don't recall her ever mentioning she was after the weapon. And since you brought up the weapon, let's talk about that discrepancy. Sazza says the goblins were after the Looters. Aradin had busted in and that's who they were chasing. And yet, Findal says they were after the weapon. So which is it? Were they after Aradin and his crew or the weapon? When you talk to the goblin boss of that area, he berates Sazza and her team for screwing up the attack on the grove, and it's all about chasing the adventurers. Never once does he ask whether they found the weapon or anything. So why does Findal say they said they were after the weapon? Why would they tell Findal about the weapon? Why would they think the druids had the weapon? It was on the nautiloid, right? Even if the Absolute told Minthara or Gut that the heroes had the weapon, Minthara wouldn't have told her raiding crew about it before they chased after Aradin. So... makes no sense. So, this is simple i believe. Minthara wants the box ... she know that it is somewhere around ... - we find some Goblin corpses around Nautiloid, so someone was send there to examine the crash site ... - we also find party searching for survivors ... - and we also find Sazza, last survivor of scouting party that was send to find the Grove, or were send to track Tiefling refugees and Grove was just a bonus ... but i dont believe that, since Minthara is specificaly talking about Grove when she stands over that warmap in her camp (what puzzles me here is why they even keep her alive, but Halsin was probably still there back then and believed that he can get some usefull info about the Absolute from her ... so that can be explained) You lost me here. Look, the way I figure it, here is how the events went down: 1. Gnolls on the road attacking people. Halsin investigates.
2. Tieflings on the road attacked by gnolls.
3. Halsin shows up and saves them and leads them to the grove.
4. Goblins and drow show up in the temple.
5. Halsin and Nettie investigate and get attacked by a drow and kill him and take him back and learn about the True Soul parasite.
6. Aradin and his crew show up asking about the Nightsong and the Underdark. They are going to investigate.
7. Halsin agrees to go with them to investigate the parasite.
8. Halsin, Aradin and company arrive at the Goblin Camp and find it overrun by goblins. Not wanting to give up on their quest, they seek a way inside. This takes time, and they are constantly hiding from goblins and drow as they work their way around looking for some way to get in.
9. The nautiloid shows up. Now goblins are on full alert and crawling everywhere. Aradin and his crew can't even move now. They're stuck in hiding because goblins are searching all around for survivors from the crash. (Yes, I think it has to do with the box and YOU, the MC. Yes, you and your party, I think, are quite special. Minthara even says, at one point, that you are one of the Absolute's favorites. So, she has been looking for you.)
10. Raiding party runs into Aradin, Halsin and company, finding them in their hiding place.
11. Halsin is captured and many of Aradin's crew are killed as they try to flee back to the grove. Most die just outside Moonhaven.
12. Aradin and the survivors race back to the grove. Now. I pieced this together making some pretty hefty stretches. I mean, it still is very odd to me that Halsin and Aradin took days upon days - so long that the druids and tieflings say things that imply they were gone for a long time. But anyway, the point is that I'm not even sure about all of what I just put there. Is that how it went down? It's not really clear. And THAT's the point of this thread. The story isn't clear. It makes no sense. Did the nautiloid crash before or after Aradin and his crew were discovered by goblins? Were they discovered by goblins because of the nautiloid crash? If so, why were they gone so long before the nautiloid crash? What were they doing all that time before goblins found them and swarmed them?
And what about the tollhouse? Did the goblins kill the people in the tollhouse BEFORE the tieflings showed up? Was it after? Why did they bother killing everyone in the tollhouse?
As for the paper in Blighted Village, you missed my point. The point is that people believe that the village was resettled, but the evidence indicates that it wasn't. It's been a ghost town for over a hundred years. The paper was just a strange oddity that people used as a reason why they believed people resettled there. They thought the flyer indicated that children were being kidnapped recently, and the village was just recently destroyed again. But that doesn't make sense with everything else you find and all the evidence around town. Again, my point is that it confused people. It wasn't clear what happened. I think I even read a wiki about BG3 that stated that Moonhaven was resettled and destroyed again. No, one of the surviving fishermen explicitly tells us that they arrived on the river. O_o What more do you need? Do you realize that this world is not ending with borders of our gampleay map? There is obviously another settlement somewhere up the stream, and that is where they are from ... Mystery solved. Missed my point and what I said entirely. The point is, there is no village in the area. None. No one mentions one. Nobody says, "There are villages across the river," or "There's a fishing village west of year," or anything. You just find all these random fishermen on the beach, dead. They were slaughtered, clearly, by the intellect devourers. Your MC even says so. There's at least a dozen of them or more besides the three that are alive. No one ever explains who those people were or where they came from. They were just there on the beach when the nautiloid crashed. Their boats were smashed and the intellect devourers killed them. Where did they come from? There is no village around? No one tells you there is one? You don't even ask anyone; not even the three surviving fishermen. You don't say, "Hey! Where are you from and where did all these fishermen come from? Is there a village nearby? I'd really like to get my bearings. Where are we? At least if I knew of a village around here, maybe someone there could tell me. Do they have a healer? Do they have a temple to anyone?" Nope. Just random dead fishermen all over the place. So, once again, you proved my point exactly. I know that there is a world beyond the game map; or at least there is supposed to be. However, Larian isn't telling us about that world. I dont quite understand what are you asking ...
The fact that village was "destroyed and resettled" seem like self-explanation to why is is "unlived" ... isnt it? O_o I don't even know how to respond to this one. Perhaps will just let this one go. Silly me ... i was thinking how could i missed this information that really makes quite mess around there ... and i was just prepared to give you another +1 for finding something that dont make sence at all. Then i notice the word "could" ... wich explains it all. Its your suggestion isnt it? Well, that would probably not work at all. For one, Tieflings are quite established there for being in "just for 3 days" ... For two, it seems quite inprobable that so many druids would have "enough of them" just after 3 days ... they had to bother them for MUCH LONGER than that. Personaly i would say at least month ... maybe even few of them. Again, proving my point. I just whipped 3 days out my butt. I have NO idea how long it actually was. But then, neither do you. That much is clear. And that's my point. NOTHING is clear. Was it a month? Was it 3 days? Was it a year? Nobody knows how long the tieflings were in the grove before Halsin left. I'm assuming it was much less than a month because I think the tollhouse record indicates that the tollhouse was destroyed by goblins somewhat recently. Still, even the Current Date in the game is not provided. I have absolutely no idea what month or day it is when the game starts, and no one ever tells you. Therefore, give me timelines in books all you want with months and days in the tollhouse ledger, but if you don't tell me what the current day is, I have no frame of reference. Was Uktar 30 six months ago? Was it yesterday? And yes, Halsin would need to leave in less than a week, most likely few days ... i even believe it was mentioned by someone, but im not sure who ... i shall seach for it next time i will play, if i remember. But there is a lot of tidbits you can miss, if you dont talk with every single Druid inside the Grove. I already addressed this, I think. Why did it take Aradin and his adventurers so long to return, if goblin camp is so super close? Once again, self-explanatory answer would be: Bcs its not. I mean have you ever played any other game? WoW is great example ... you can fly over whole continent North to South in less than 30 minutes ... that would make awfully small planet. I already addressed this too, I think. Basically, NOTHING in the game indicates that what you are saying here is true. NOTHING. The scale, the fact that I can literally measure out every foot of the map... You see, when games stretch things out so that if I run for 10 minutes I'm actually travelling 10 miles, there's time that passes in the game to indicate that you are not really moving only 30 feet. There's a clock that shows how minutes are going by for every second you are travelling. Either that, or someone tells you it is a greater distance somewhere; maybe even in the tutorial or on an area map somewhere. Either that or they don't zoom in but they show you a birds' eye view of the whole map of the region... you know... like BG3 does later when you attempt to leave the area. Nope! None of that in BG3. Instead, you can Turn Base and everything is literally foot for foot, and since there is no time or day/night, there is literally no indication that anything is further than what it appears. Soooooo. Enough said. The point is, LOTS of plot holes and unexplained things in BG3. I want this game to be REALLY AWESOME because I love playing it and I think it has SO much potential, but they've got a LOT of work in the cohesive story department. One of my biggest challenges in writing my fan fiction IS that the story is hard to piece together in some cohesive way. I keep replaying parts or rereading books and scrolls in the game trying to figure it all out and make sense of it. That is actually one of the main reasons I'm still working on it. It isn't so much for you people, because frankly I doubt many are even reading it. It's for my own sake so I can try to make sense of it all, and because I love writing. This game is fun to play, but when you really start to think through it, the whole thing falls apart, and for me, that will ruin the entire game and make it one of the worst games I've ever played.
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Be warned ... this post is so long so it started lagging my browser when i writed it ... SO ... proceed at your own risk, I would say. I also had to remove all spoiler tags ... so, concider yourself warned about that one too. :-/ For some reason it refused to hide whole post to one HUGE spoiler ... and then keep lesser spoilers intact (i probably missed some /, [ or ]) ... If you help Sazza return to Minthara, she explains that the whole reason the goblins attacked the grove when you first come to it was because Aradin and his crew, called by the goblins "The Looters" tried to sneak into the temple and down into the Underdark. They were caught attempting to break in and chased out of the goblin camp. Halsin was captured as they were fleeing. Minthara then refers to them constantly as "My Prey". She asks Sazza if they at least managed to find and kill her prey. At first, I thought maybe she was talking about YOU, the MC, but no. She only sent the goblin raiding party out there to kill the Looters. That was her prey, if you pay close enough attention to the convo. Never once does she mention that her prey is a True Soul or someone from the crashed ship, and she never shows any other concern or care about the grove other than to slaughter it because of The Looters. But then... oddly enough... she is BENT on destroying the grove when provided the opportunity, as if she no longer cares about The Looters at all and her main objective in the area is to kill everyone in the grove. So what exactly is Minthara's main objective? Is it to kill Aradin and his crew? Is it to find the True Souls who escaped the nautiloid? Is it to kill everyone in the grove? None of this is clear. I allways thought that she is talking about some specific members of Tiefling party (specificly Zevlor and maybe someone in his close comand), after all ... Sazza is not part of attack on Aradin, she is allready in cage when that happened ... so it dont quite make sence to think that she was send after them. Also Zevlor tells us that There was several attacks on the grove lately ... and druids claim its Tieflings fault ... another reason is that Zevlor is so devoted to "never leave the Grove until Goblins are dealt with" so he is willing to attack you even if you outnumber his in his cave 2:1, kinda extreme since he only claims that he is "affraid of random attack" if you ask me. O_o I believe he knew that Goblins were specificaly after them. Also there is that dead Drow in Halsin's secret room ... if you read his note, Minthara herself send him to observe, litteraly "track the druid" and "do not engage" ... and if you cast speak with death on him, he reveals you that he was scouting around and found the grove. If you connect theese dots, it kinda fits me together that Tieflings tryed to get into Selune temple (seeking for shelter, or suplies ... or simply valuables on their way to Baldur's Gate) were kinda surprised by goblin army, and then run for their lives, just like Aradin did ... Then they have found Emerald Grove ... therefore Goblins loose their track, but never stopped searching for them ... and since that moment, from time to time some (un)lucky scout gets too close to Grove gate and have to be dealt with. I highly doubt he would have let some group of goblins to set up shop there and just increase in size without doing something about it. Why? He said it himself ... Chaos is welcome, in doses; it helps keep balance. But this is too much - this is unnatural. I believe he didnt mind goblins, as long as they keep things natural ... but once the Absolute moved in, things changed quickly. There are also other indications that the goblins just moved in recently. Listen to Minthara talk to her minions before actually triggering her dialogue scene. She is receiving reports from one of the goblins about the status of things in Bogrot. Seems they just set up shop there recently and something dark and mysterious is happening. They see things moving about in the night, implying Eliette, the Phase Spider Matriarch and her minions. Also, there is mention that there were no problems until recently. Then, suddenly, goblins in the temple and gnolls on the highway. Im standing here for 20 minutes now, and the only thing she is talking about is prisoner, number of raiders, sometimes guard came to anounce visitors, sometimes Rozzak is complaining about that they wait instead of attack, and finaly she is talking about expanding their camp to Blighted Willage ... i dunno what is Borgot, but i believe that is what you mean? If so ... that only means she recetnly get to Willage, not even a word about temple itself. I don't think the Magubiyet loyalist goblin is an indication that they were set up in the temple for a long time. It just shows that the goblins followed Maglubiyet until the Absolute showed up. The goblin loyalist was a part of the tribe, and he refused to fall in line. Therefore, they locked him up. I took it as he was trying to lead a rebellion and turn the other goblins in his tribe against the Absolute. That's why he was there. Exactly ... And if they would just moved in recently, it would mean that they drag him with them for some reason ... It seem much more probable to me that they were here just before they were converted to the Absolute, and (exactly as you said) "The goblin loyalist was a part of the tribe, and he refused to fall in line. Therefore, they locked him up." Now, when basic hints are done ... lets see for Druid Grove:
Aradin have obviously litteraly no idea about what is goin on around here, he specificly tells us that when he claims that he "was expecting easy coin and not army of bloody goblins" Exactly. Indicating the goblins weren't supposed to be there and haven't been there that long. It was a big surprise. The wizard in Baldur's Gate knew nothing about goblins in the area, and more importantly, if they had been there for a long time, wouldn't Halsin have at least known about it? Does the man never pick up on anything going on in his territory that he wouldn't warn Aradin that the place is crawling with gobbos? Or he simply didnt expect "whole army" exactly as he said. Wich on the oposite indicating that goblins are nothing new in this place, but they allways was just pest ... and hardly anything more. Wizard in Baldurs gate have no reason to care about them, he is too far and too protected to bother with some goblin tribe. Adventurers take the risks, and if something fails ... he simply hire another group. :P Why Halsin didnt warn them is different question ... we dont know, maybe he underestimated them, maybe Aradin refused to listen, maybe Halsin didnt want to compromise his possibly only chance to get into the Underdark. That all is possible equaly. Yes, the dead were his companions just outside Blighted Village, but that wasn't where the initial fight occurred. I shall skip things i questioned earlier and keep only new info ... Do you have litteraly anything that supports this theory? Bcs they way i see it: - Sazza is allready captured when Aradin and his group arives to Grove ... therefore, logicaly, she could not even know about whatever they did or where ... unless they would loot in the Temple, then return to grove, use Tieflings help to kill Goblins that was chasing them, then they capture Sazza, then they talk to Halsin, AND THEN they return to the Temple again ... BUT In this case Aradin would know about the army. So the only logical explanation is that Aradin is not the "looter" she is talking about. Therefore, since we do not find any dead adventurer, nor even any splat of blood ... in our way to Goblin camp ... i dare to say that my theory about them being ambushed in Blighted Willage is more probable. There is one corpse of dead adventurer tho, inside the goblin camp ... the one kids are kicking. Question is if they (goblins, not those kids) drag him there for some reason (i would bet eating) and then give his body to kids to have some fun ... or if he scouted ahead and was killed right where his body lay. O_o Or, just to have all possibilities sorted here ... you were right and Aradin and his group did actualy somehow get so far ... then they start running out, and somehow managed to run without any serious injury through whole goblin party (since there is no other way than the bridge), main gate (with another guards), blighted willage (with yet another patrol, two of them actualy, one on roofs and one by windmill), and then half of their group was butchered by Willage Gate ... yet rest of the Goblin Army they runned around through this whole time decided to stop chasing them, and rather return to their own business ... wich would make sence to those goblins that are celebrating, but hardly to others. But let's just say, for a moment, that you're right and that they were attacked outside Blighted Village. Even MORE so, Aradin and his crew would have trotted for about 2 minutes to Blighted Village, gotten attacked, and they would have hoofed it back to the grove. Hardly any time would have taken place from the time Halsin left to the time they returned to the grove. However, Kagha has already firmly established herself as First Druid? That makes no sense at all. The story seems to imply that Halsin and Aradin and his crew have been gone for some time and that everyone has been expecting them to return but they haven't. What on God's Green Earth took them so freaking long? The goblin camp is literally a 10 minute jog from the grove entrance. You dont scale the map again. :-/ Average "fast walking" is acording to Wikipedia 2,5m/s ... it took me 35 seconds to get from Emerald Grove to Blighted Willage gate ... that would mean that Blighted Vilage is less than 100m (87,5) from the Grove ... Look at this picture: ![[Linked Image from gamespot.com]](https://www.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/1585/15855271/3743583-bg3map.png) Does it really seem to you that Grove and Willage are 100m from each other? O_o And before you answer, notice that on left side is Baldur's Gate ... and remember that Tieflings are talking about how long it would take to get there (10 days if i remember corectly) ... Now there may be some confusion around the fact that part of the way is hidden behind that "zoomed city" ... But if you follow the route as far as you can, you should be able to determine something simmilar to this: ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/15GAqjq.png) Meaning ... Day 1: Reaching Blighted Willage Day 2: Reaching Waukeen's Rest Day 3: Reaching top of mountains Day 4: etc. You get the idea I give them 4 days to reach the Baldur's Gate through the part we do not see ... note that if i was wrong and city gates was exactly behind the edge of zoomed part (wich dont add up with rest of the landscape, but even IF) ... that would mean that i was wrong, and the segments i marked as potential daywalk would need to be split in half. Meaning ... Day 1: Wilderness Day 2: Reaching Blighted Willage Day 3: Wilderness Day 4: Reaching Waukeen's Rest etc. Anyway, the point is that Blighted Willage cannot in any circumstances 100m far from the Druid's Grove ... Wich such measures it would not be matter of 10 days to get in Baldur's Gate, but matter of 350 seconds ... since i used Ctrl+V to those lines, i didnt draw them ... first one of them was from Grove, to Blighted Willage ... and that walk i measured on stopwatch. I shall skip rest of this part your post, since i concider matter of distances prooved wrong enough. The last note i have on this matter is repeating what was told before: IF Larian decided to cut whole map to pieces, and let us travel between those pieces instead of just melting it all together ... it would make much more sence from this (and only this) perspective. Simmilar to what did we have in Dragon Age: Origins ... just small arenas for fights, or interactions ... and dots moving over map as simulation of our travels. I know some people would appreciate that, but honestly i like it as it is now. :-/ I do seem to recall that there was a dialogue where she called it a holy crusade. Interesting. I haven't triggered that one in awhile. Still, then that just proves my point again. If you choose one path, she is going to destroy the grove because she is convinced they are housing her prey. The next path, she's saying it's a holy crusade to wipe out the heretics. But you know? I don't recall her ever mentioning she was after the weapon. She do not mention the weapon herself ... you get that from your mind connection, its information provied by Narrator (just checked). Im not exactly sure what do you mean with one path, or next path ... those are her reasons, they dont exist separately, nor they excluding each other, just bcs she dont give you full list of them. And since you brought up the weapon, let's talk about that discrepancy. Sazza says the goblins were after the Looters. Aradin had busted in and that's who they were chasing. And yet, Findal says they were after the weapon. So which is it? Were they after Aradin and his crew or the weapon? When you talk to the goblin boss of that area, he berates Sazza and her team for screwing up the attack on the grove, and it's all about chasing the adventurers. Never once does he ask whether they found the weapon or anything. So why does Findal say they said they were after the weapon? Why would they tell Findal about the weapon? Why would they think the druids had the weapon? It was on the nautiloid, right? Even if the Absolute told Minthara or Gut that the heroes had the weapon, Minthara wouldn't have told her raiding crew about it before they chased after Aradin. So... makes no sense. Well ... to answer this i believe we have to keep in mind that this game clearly do have some order that Larian expect players to keep ... even tho concidering whole map can easily confuse players, but things can seem like they are all happening at once. My personal gues is that Long Rest is that would give sence to this events ... Larian obviously wanted us to Long Rest inside the grove, after all we do have some battle behind us and this is first certainly safe spot ... it would make totally sence from story perspective. Therefore the goblins that were chasing Aradin was one group ... And if we were expected to long rest after that fight ... the another group we meet in secret passage would arive there day after. That is also why nobody from the attacking goblins were talking about *the Weapon* they didnt even know about it, they were just chasing Aradin, nothing else. Now you asked why would they tell Findal about the Weapon ... They didt *tell him* they were *interrogating him* about it. Why would they think Druids have it? That seem pretty clear to me, around Nautiloid we can find some dead goblins ... so they were sniffing in wreckage too. But if that party dont find anything, logical outcome is that someone survived the crash and take it ... or someone find it first. Next logical stepp is start to look for survivors > that is what siblings do. And start searching in nearby settlements ... and there is only one settlement nearby, Druid's Grove ... wich Minthara allready wants to destroy anyway, so its win win for her. Minthara was just thorough, i would not search for anything deeper. Look, the way I figure it, here is how the events went down:
1. Gnolls on the road attacking people. Halsin investigates.
2. Tieflings on the road attacked by gnolls.
3. Halsin shows up and saves them and leads them to the grove.
4. Goblins and drow show up in the temple.
5. Halsin and Nettie investigate and get attacked by a drow and kill him and take him back and learn about the True Soul parasite.
6. Aradin and his crew show up asking about the Nightsong and the Underdark. They are going to investigate.
7. Halsin agrees to go with them to investigate the parasite.
8. Halsin, Aradin and company arrive at the Goblin Camp and find it overrun by goblins. Not wanting to give up on their quest, they seek a way inside. This takes time, and they are constantly hiding from goblins and drow as they work their way around looking for some way to get in.
9. The nautiloid shows up. Now goblins are on full alert and crawling everywhere. Aradin and his crew can't even move now. They're stuck in hiding because goblins are searching all around for survivors from the crash. (Yes, I think it has to do with the box and YOU, the MC. Yes, you and your party, I think, are quite special. Minthara even says, at one point, that you are one of the Absolute's favorites. So, she has been looking for you.)
10. Raiding party runs into Aradin, Halsin and company, finding them in their hiding place.
11. Halsin is captured and many of Aradin's crew are killed as they try to flee back to the grove. Most die just outside Moonhaven.
12. Aradin and the survivors race back to the grove. This is interesting list ... alow me to present mine: 1. Goblins live in the temple, minding its own business ... as much as Goblins can so. 2. True Souls and the cult of the Absolute come in ... tribe is converted, reformation to millitary force begins. 3. Tieflings on the road are attacked by gnolls ... some manage to run, some was eaten by Gnolls, that did pay more attention to their food than to chasing the rest. 4. Tieflings arived to Blighted Willage (there are some Tieflings corpses, both in and out) probably to seek shelter. ( I admit this may seem a little odd, since all they would need to do is continue West to reach Waukeen's Rest and avoid all this shit ... but concidering one of them told us that Nautiloid have falled "West from here" while it was actualy South ... maybe they were thinking they do travel to Waukeen's rest. Or to take it a little more seriously, they werent exactly pay atention where they run.). 5. Few Tieflings went to Selune Temple, possibly either seeking valuables (note it could easily be those kids), or scouting ahead (not kids probably ) ... they probably have seen some Goblins here and there, but most of them was inside ... they keep exploring until someone discovers them ... then they run. 6. Tieflings arives to Emerald Grove ... Halsin welcomed them inside ... they probably had some Goblins at their tails, so there was battle, some Goblins obviously survived and report that Looters escaped and some Druid helped them. 7. Minthara sends Drow scout to find and follow "Druid" (not sure wich one, but probably either Nettie, or Halsin) ... he screw up, and is killed ... Halsin finds out about the parasite ... his body was taken for futher examination. >> This is status quo that was set ...> Minthara from time to time sends small group of scouts to find Druid Grove, or so they find a better way inside (since as she tells you "she do not intend to lead suicidal attack") ... they were mostly slaughtered, Sazza was captured either back in point 6 or anytime between then and now ... > Halsin scouted around either by himself or with help of other animals, but didnt get much info sice Goblins were attacking everything that gets close enough so they can shoot at it. > Tieflings are getting comfortable in their new home ... daring more and more with every other day. *some unspecified time later*8. Aradin arived to Grove ... he was talking about Nightsong and the Underdark, he and Halsin is talking about the fact that there is some entrance to Underdark in Selune temple ... Halsin agree (or maybe even asks) to join them ... 9. Halsin either stated that Kagha will lead the Grove in his absence ... or she simply uses the chance and stands as most supported person, since majority between Druids are sick of Tieflings allready ... anyway the coup started. >> Aproximately sometime at this time Goblins raided Waukeen's Rest ... and Gnolls attacked Toll House ... 10. Halsin and Aradin arived close enough to Selune temple to observe it from the distance (its even possible that they have seen Goblin army marching Norht, so they decided tht this will be good time to go) ... one Adventurer, and possibly Halsin decided to scout ahead ... Nautiloid showed up ... Nautiloid exploded ... Halsin and Scout was exposed ... Halsin was captured, since Goblins expected him to be just animal ... Scout was killed ... Aradin and rest of his group start running ... 11. Goblins returned from sucesfull raid. 12. Aradin and his group was discovered (possibly short resting) outside the Blighted Willage by goblins that was send out after Nautiloid exploded ... those of them who survived start running again. ... at same time Minthara sends out scouting parties, searching for survivors. 13. We arive to the Grove, save Aradin's Ass ... 14. Scouting parties arives. >> Aproximately sometime at this time Gith destroyed passage by Toll house (my personal gues it was Gith, there is nothing indicating it in game ... but it would make sence, if they were planing to search whole area around Nautiloid crash for survivors, to cut out all exits ... so either them, or those Zarielsworn Paladins destroyed the most obvious escape route for Karlach) I must say somet things gets to a little different perspective, when i was creating this timeline. For example ... i have littealy no idea where those goblins that was dead by Nautiloid came from. O_O The only possible explanation i have is that they were send to find the Grove, and while they were searching that ... Nautiloid showed up and they decided to explore crashside instead. As for the paper in Blighted Village, you missed my point. The point is that people believe that the village was resettled, but the evidence indicates that it wasn't. It's been a ghost town for over a hundred years. This is pure language block ... The word Google Translator offered me as translation for "resettled" is in my language used for moving every citizen from one place to another, where they start new settlement ... leaving the original place behind. So it maked sence to me that it was all abandoned ruins. Now when you say it this way, i get the feeling that word was used in exactly oposite meaning, as if other people came in and started to live in the same willage again. In such case i dont have much to say, except maybe that 100years is a long time. No, one of the surviving fishermen explicitly tells us that they arrived on the river. O_o What more do you need? Do you realize that this world is not ending with borders of our gampleay map? There is obviously another settlement somewhere up the stream, and that is where they are from ... Mystery solved. Missed my point and what I said entirely. The point is, there is no village in the area. None. No one mentions one. Nobody says, "There are villages across the river," or "There's a fishing village west of year," or anything. You just find all these random fishermen on the beach, dead. They were slaughtered, clearly, by the intellect devourers. Your MC even says so. There's at least a dozen of them or more besides the three that are alive. No one ever explains who those people were or where they came from. They were just there on the beach when the nautiloid crashed. Their boats were smashed and the intellect devourers killed them. Where did they come from? As you said: Their boats were smashed and the intellect devourers killed them.Focus on "Their boats" ... logicaly, they come by the river. You don't even ask anyone; not even the three surviving fishermen. You don't say, "Hey! Where are you from and where did all these fishermen come from? Is there a village nearby? I'd really like to get my bearings. Where are we? You can ask both questions if they are dead ... They came from fisher willage up the river ... and you are in middle of nowhere.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 12/09/21 11:33 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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OP
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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OK. I'm just going to respond like this. The fact that you and I have two totally different ideas of what is going on in this story only proves my point oh so much more. You are, once again, focusing on the very minute details and missing the big picture of what I'm saying.
And you have only emphasized my point so much, I can't believe how much. It's insane. I read it and thought, "Where are you getting all of this? Clearly you and I are playing different games because what you think is going on is totally not what I think is going on."
And that, again, is the point. BG3 is not clear at all as to what is really going on. I've played 600+ hours of this game, and I've delved into this story so much it's ridiculous. I've examined books and tomes and taken screenshots of them and used them in my story word-for-word and tried to piece different logs together and so forth. I've watched other people's playthroughs to see what they experienced. I've done side-by-side comparisons with different elements of the game to try to put the puzzle all into one cohesive story, and what I got was SO not what you got.
So thank you for proving my point. If we who have played endless hours of this game have two totally different takes on EVERYTHING storywise in the game, something's QUITE unclear about the story of BG3. Larian needs to be WAY more clear on their story elements so players are not thinking to themselves, "What the heck is going on here?"
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"Where are you getting all of this?" Define *this* and we can talk about it.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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"Where are you getting all of this?" Define *this* and we can talk about it. No need. Like I said, you proved my point, thank you. I'd rather not waste anymore time trying to debate what YOU think is the story in the game and why. Again, "If we who have played endless hours of this game have two totally different takes on EVERYTHING storywise in the game, something's QUITE unclear about the story of BG3. Larian needs to be WAY more clear on their story elements so players are not thinking to themselves, "What the heck is going on here?"
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It might be easily caused bcs (at least) one of us created false asumptions on wich he based rest of his explanations ... It happened before. Do you know this image? ![[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/e6/af/5be6af0753a8f1f8986cb2fc2a9a70a6.jpg)
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 13/09/21 11:12 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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That image isn't quite right.
Truth = Perfect Absolute Accuracy. Not the slightest falsehood.
Lie = even the slightest imperfection exists. The best lies are based on lots of truth with only slight deviations.
A round peg can be forced into a square hole, but a square peg cannot fit into a round hole unless the peg is made smaller.
The image, ironically, is not true. A square peg would work better to depict truth.
But then, I don't think the illustrator's going for ACTUAL truth are they? More like that whole relative truth thing.
Last edited by GM4Him; 13/09/21 12:24 PM.
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What hole you talking about? Its an object lighted from two sides ... what you see on those walls is its shadow. Person watching the blue wall will be sure that lightened object is Square ... Person watching the yellow wall will be sure that lightened object is Round ... But in fact the only way they both find out what shape lightened object is, will be if they combine their own observations. Its just image that shows 2 personal true statements ... and show that they can differ from actual truth. In other words, how can speaker easily be wrong, even tho every single detail in HIS perspective checks out ... if he simply dont realize that there is more point of view fom his own.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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So... let me see if I'm understanding you correctly.
In your opinion, players should have to get together and discuss at length the basic storyline details of a video game? In order to fully understand the story, even the most minor story elements of it, they need to discover the truth together through discussion?
This is a video game. I should be able to understand what is ACTUALLY happening in the story by myself. I shouldn't need to go out and discuss it in a committee to learn the actual truth of what is happening in the game especially about minor story points. The story should be built in such a way that while I'm playing it, I learn the actual plot of the story; not some ambiguous relative potential story that is based on my own personal perception versus yours. Again, the fact that you are even saying that it's all my perspective versus yours tells me that the story details are too ambiguous.
I'm suggesting that Larian needs to hone in the details more for the story. Are you disagreeing with this? Shouldn't a player be able to play the game for the first time and basically give me the main timeline of events of the story and have it roughly align with my own because there is a clear story taking place? Should Player 1 get an entirely different idea of what is happening than Player 2? Seriously? Is that what you're telling me?
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In your opinion, players should have to get together and discuss at length the basic storyline details of a video game? In order to fully understand the story, even the most minor story elements of it, they need to discover the truth together through discussion? More like you need to concider all aspects together, instead observing them separately. Example: Presumtion: Aradin was in Goblin ruins ... Sazza is talking about intruders/looters ... therefore Aradin is Intruder Sazza is talking about. > This might seem true, as long as you concider it alone. Another aspect you didnt concidered: Sazza was allready inprisoned when Aradin arived the Grove chased by Goblins ... therefore Aradin cannot be the one who Sazza was talking about ... bcs she was in that cage, when Aradin was in Goblin camp. Its nothing bad about being wrong ... What is bad is keep repeating things that dont make sence and refuse to admit that you might simply miss something. BUT ... just to cover both sides, note that even Larian are just humans, and they could oversight something just as easily as we could. I should be able to understand what is ACTUALLY happening in the story by myself. Tell me, in wich case you do not understand what is happening? I shouldn't need to go out and discuss it in a committee to learn the actual truth of what is happening in the game especially about minor story points. This whole topic is about things that do not make sence in this game, storywise. I dare to say that if you really, and i mean REALLY wants to talk about that, you simply cannot include any of your observation or conclusion ... just facts that are litteraly said, written, or are happening in game ... for the sake of objectivity. In other words ... Few basic informations you put to your understanding of story yourself and was never mentioned anywhere else: 1) Goblins were not present around here until recently 2) Halsin personaly saved Tieflins when they were attacked by Gnolls, and lead them to the Grove 3) Aradin and his group is those Looters goblins are talking about 4) Quote: "8. Halsin, Aradin and company arrive at the Goblin Camp and find it overrun by goblins. Not wanting to give up on their quest, they seek a way inside. This takes time, and they are constantly hiding from goblins and drow as they work their way around looking for some way to get in. 9. The nautiloid shows up. Now goblins are on full alert and crawling everywhere. Aradin and his crew can't even move now. They're stuck in hiding because goblins are searching all around for survivors from the crash. 10. Raiding party runs into Aradin, Halsin and company, finding them in their hiding place." This all is nothing but your own headcanon ...Dont get me wrong, its nothing wrong about having some ... i also made my own ... that is how people process missing parts of any story (both if they are actualy missing, of if they are there and those people just missed them). All i say that if there is something illogical in story AFTER you add your own parts, it might simply be that you added something wrong. Also ... i absolutely disagree with that statement ... For one, that is exactly what comunity is there for ... For two, nobody and i mean it litteraly, is able to notice everything everywhere and anytime, so comunity can help you with things you might oversight, or didnt even concidered ... And for three, even if you have all dots present ... there is no guarantee that you will connect them corectly at first sight. Humans are beings capable of misstakes, there is no shame in that. The story should be built in such a way that while I'm playing it, I learn the actual plot of the story; Again, tell me wich part of "actual plot" you are missing. And no ... you certainly should not be able to complete whole picture of everything without at least minimum effort of some kind of investigation. Again, the fact that you are even saying that it's all my perspective versus yours tells me that the story details are too ambiguous. Not necesarily ... That is what that picture is about ... You see square shadow, therefore you expect object to be cube ... I see circle shadow, therefore i expect object to be orb ... But in the end it might be something entirely different ... in this case cylinder. Also i never did any "my own personal perception versus yours" that sounds like really stupid competition over videogame, that isnt even finished yet to the top of all. You are connecting dots one way ... im connecting them different way ... one of us might be right, we both can be wrong ... I was only showing you things that negates, or changes some details your theories, bcs i presumed you simply oversight them, or didnt take them in concideration ... i expected the same from you ... Now it seems to me that you didnt even want to talk about story, you just wanted to complain that it is bad no matter anything ... if that is the case, you are right, futher conversation is pointless. Shouldn't a player be able to play the game for the first time and basically give me the main timeline of events of the story and have it roughly align with my own because there is a clear story taking place? Well ... depends on what do you see as "basically main timeline of events of the story" ... Bcs concidering it from my definition ... we already have that ... Sure, some minor details might seem a little blur, but main story seem to me explained enough and pretty intact. O_o Ofcourse it would make even more sence once we will know it whole, since it is possible that Larian keeps some dots hidden from us so far. Should Player 1 get an entirely different idea of what is happening than Player 2? Seriously? Is that what you're telling me? First of all i dont even think that is happening ... So, logicaly, no that is certainly not something im telling. If i read your and mine timeline, all difference i see is in things like how long Goblins are living here ... when Halsin leave ... who are Goblins talking about ... and what are their reasons for their actions. Everything else (read as: "main timeline of events of the story") seem similar enough. Except the scale of map ... that is also quite HUGE aspect you seem to ignore.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 13/09/21 03:49 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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I would be curious to learn how those areas are created. Are different narrative groups working on their zones (zone1 - Grove, zone2 - forest, zone3 - goblin camp etc)? That would explain while they feel so seperate in spite of having open world structure.
If that is the case, they could have defined some basic connection (like Helsin being imprisone on the map) and perhaps they will polish and merge things during later story passes.
I didn't give it much thought before OP started this topic - the game, like D:OS2, feels more like a themepark then a narrative experience. A "Why the hell not" kind of an attitude, rather then a consistant worldbuilding.
Last edited by Wormerine; 13/09/21 03:59 PM.
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@RagnarokCzD
You can't win this argument, no matter how hard you try. You can tell me until you are blue in the face or your fingers raw from typing that I'm an idiot and I haven't considered certain details and that's why I'm not getting the story right. It doesn't matter. You are still missing the point.
The point of this entire thread is exactly what I keep telling you. If two players who have played this game as much as we have, are differing so much in our viewpoints as to what the story actually is, the story is too vague. It isn't clear enough. Larian needs to do a better job at filling in the details so that we aren't so confused.
You keep trying to get me to fight with you about all these minor points. That's not what this thread is about, so please stop trying to bait me into going through each one of these points as if you argue with me enough you're going to convince me I'm a moron who just can't piece different things together cohesively.
Even if you win, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh! You're right! I'm a moron and I didn't notice all that," you still lose because the story was still so ambiguous that I was able to play it for 600+ hours and still get it totally wrong. If I can pour that much time into it, and add all the hours I spent writing my stupid fan fic to boot, and I still have the story totally and completely wrong, assuming you are totally right, then that 100% proves my point.
Last edited by GM4Him; 13/09/21 04:25 PM.
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seems to me that you didnt even want to talk about story, you just wanted to complain that it is bad no matter anything ... if that is the case, you are right, futher conversation is pointless. As one wise man once said: If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 13/09/21 04:36 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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