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And what makes Sazza so special? If the Grove was attacked by goblins several times in the past few months, why aren't there other captured goblins? If they killed all the others, why keep her alive? It is never explained why they chose to capture Sazza and lock her up. Are they hoping to interrogate her? If so, what for? And why isn't there a guard posted to guard her? The two you encounter when you first meet her ran there from the wall after discovering Kanon was dead.

And where did she come from? It is clear that she is supposed to be from the same goblin raiders who chased the adventurers. However, she was not in the battlefield. So did they catch her sneaking in through the secret tunnels? Did she try to sneak in some other way? How did she find a way in? How did the bug bear find his way in? You know, the one who attacked the pink haired tiefling?

And why is no one concerned that these individuals managed to sneak in? Shouldn't they be looking for how the goblin and the bug bear got into the Grove? Shouldn't they be looking for more?

In my first playthrough of the game, I remember actually thinking that Sazza had been captured during a previous raid. However, if you free her, she makes it quite clear that she was a part of the most recent attack. So which is it? Was she captured from a recent attack or from a previous attack?

Let me clarify my suggestion again. Here is an example of something that I don't want them to spell out for me:

The backstory of the phase spider matriarch is one of my favorite stories in the game. I like that I had to find a lot of clues in order to piece together her entire story. I would not have wanted this story spelled out clearly for me in the game because that would have taken away from the mystery. I think that how they developed this side story was well done.

I thought that the toll house was pretty good too. I was able to piece that story together pretty well without too much trouble. That is why it baffles me that more important story plot elements are not as clearly given to the player. When I play a game I shouldn't be scratching my head and making a lot of assumptions about basic story plot.

Agree.
And I'll add that "because of the tadpole" is never a good answer.

Absolutely. Pun intended/. 😒

I wondered how long will you keep your word ...
Cant say im surprised.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Occams-razor
Lets sumarize facts:
Everyone in the Grove are talking about attacks ... Druids even blame Tieflings for that ...
Sazza was captured ...
Minthara do not know where the Grove is (or at least she certainly didnt when Sazza's group went off) ...

Logical conclusion:
There was *some* Goblin attack to the Grove ... that is not even conclusion, that is just repeating first fact.
Sazza was captured in *some* previous attack ... since she is not part of curently attacking group, and we know well that none of them survived AND she is in prison this whole time ... logicaly (i really cant explain it differently) she had to be captured in the past ... was that day? week? month? dont know, dont care, not important anyway.
Minthara do not know where the Grove is ... she ordered Spike to torture adventurer so he tells her Grove location ... either she is sadistical bitch (wich i cant confrim nor deny), or she dont know that location yet ... logical conclusion if she do not know location, no scout ever get back to her to report their findings.

Its all right there, what more do you need?
I mean seriously ... PLEASE give me example of provided information you want from Larian ... bcs i cant imagine anything that would not sound ridiculous.

Nope, technicaly its what Larian is saying ...
Again ...
If there was no attack > none in Grove would be talking about attacks (plural).
If Minthara knew the location > she would not praize Sazza, or you, or Spike ... for "finaly giving her that location".

Simple as that, basic logic.

If i should use your own logic against you ... i would ask: Where exactly you see that she is anyhow special, or that someone planned to capture her?

I dunno how much you are interested in REAL history battles ...
But its nothing uncommon that after you search the battlefield, you find some enemies just unconcious, or suffering non-lethal injuries ...
And when a similar situation arises, why not make maximum of it? :P
I could imagine you asking right now "why only Sazza, chances that she would be the only one by all that *unspecified* time are quite thin" ... and you are right, there gets another logical asumption, every prisoner means another mouth to feed (otherwise you could just finish them here and now), another space (cage) to store, and most of all higher chance of escape with every single one you bring ... so, keeping their numbers low isnt so ilogical move.

Geez, this is hard question ... what possible information could alive prisoner have in armed conflict. *thinking*
Oh maybe i find something she possibly could tell them ... LITTERALY ANYTHING!

Few examples:
Location to Underdark entrance, number of Goblins in camp, number of their Leaders, anything about The Absolute, their exact location, their defences, how many others know location of the Grove, why are they even attacking the Grove in the first place, ...
You name it, possibilities are endless and chances you would miss is quite thin.

I dunno ... maybe Tieflings didnt think she need one, since they didnt count with stupid PC that will locpick her lock that was from the other, and for Sazza obviously unreachable (since she didnt escape so far), site ...
Or Tieflings are just idiots (quite possible, concidering how easily you can get out of their "prison" right opposite of Sazza's cage).

Your gues are as good as mine.

I really dont know how to react on this ...
You claim that something "is clear" yet with the very next sentence you contradict that. O_o

I mean, if something takes you exactly "to the next sentence" until it stop being true ... i would say its anything but clear.

Shall i presume it was a typo?
Since if you wanted to say that it is clear that she is NOT supposed to be from the same goblin raider who chased the adventurers (Aradin) ... then yes, i agree for 100%.

Indeed we do not know.

But i dont think this information is anyhow vital for us. O_o
Would she be anyhow less inprisoned if she came from one way, or another? O_o

My gues is that she was part of another scouting party, that was searching for the Grove and get too close.
Why? No particular reason, no particular proof ... its just the path of no less resistance.

That sounds like logical reaction ...
And since they dont, i dare to say we can safely presume that she did not sneak in ...

About Bugbear, that is kinda puzzling to be true ...
Not just how Bugbear get to that place ... but how did he get into service of his Hell-master(/mistress?) in first place. O_o
(i would like to believe that he was just placeholder for different model)

Dunno, i would have to hear or see that sentence ...

But lets say you are right and it was no missunderstanding ... or in other words, lets say that Sazza specificaly say that she was part of the most recent attack (wich i kinda doubt, but its possible im also human and therefore cabaple of making misstake) ... from her perspective it could easily be true.
And im not just talking about the fact that since she was captured she have no idea if another scouting party was send off or not ... therefore her party is the "last one she knows about" ... but also about that detail, that party wich was chasing Aradin and his group could be entirely off the schedule.

Wild Theory:
Lets say if Minthara send scouts every Monday ...
Sazza was capture on Tuesday ...
Aradin was discovered on Friday Night ...
And battle before Grove happened on Saturday in the morning ...
Wich simmilar scenario, Sazza could easily expect that Minthara didnt yet send another party, since she was not in that cage for 7 days yet.

And again, no there is nothing prooving this is exactly the case, that is why its called wild theory.
But simmilar scenario (not this exactly) would explain why Sazza said that she was part of last party, even tho we know that she certainly was not.

Yup i see that the same.

That is the thing ...
It seems to me that it is, but for some reasons i dont quite understand you stick there asumptions that i cannot connect with anything ...

Like when you said that Tieflings was attacked on the road by Gnolls (that much is okey, that whiny Bard said exactly that) ... and Halsin rescued them and lead them to the Grove. O_o
I have litteraly zero idea where did you get that from.
- There was no indication (at least as far as i know) that Halsin came to contact with Tieflings anytime sooner than in the Grove.
- If you were right with this asumption, it would not explain Tiefling corpses inside Blighted Willage.
- It would cause quite lot trouble explaining what looters Goblins were talking about.
- It caused kinda problem with Sazza talking about some looters, what seemingly could be Aradin and his group, wich also do not make sence since when they were in Goblin terytory, she was allready in her cage.

But, once i start presuming that you were simply wrong ... and Tieflings traveled after Gnoll attack to the Blighted Willage, from where they were chased by *curently mooving in* Goblins into Emerald Grove ... sudently:
- Corpses are explained.
- Tieflings marked as Looters start make sence.
- Aradin is freed of this acusation.
- Sazza is talking about people who were in Goblin teritory before her capture.

And now it all makes sence to me, just as easily as with Toll house, and Spider Matriarch.

I never said I'd never respond to you, Ragnarok CzD. I just said don't take it personal if I don't.

Like now. 😁

I am not going to go back and forth with you about all the things you've just posted. 😁

You obviously have something against me since you attack me a lot. 😁

But I'm done letting you get me upset. I hope you have a wonderful day, My Friend. Many blessings to you. 🙏

And people are wondering why i cant take you seriously ...
Ask questions and then run, i believe i have seen that before.

🤣. Look at you, trying to bait me again. 🤣

Wow! People are actually wondering? Has anyone told you they were wondering?... Or is that just a wild assumption you've made, just like you like to make with the game? 🤣

Hmmm... And wouldn't running be to never post again? I'm not running. I'm just not letting you bait me into a senseless pissing match.

Seriously, continue this crap and I'll just ignore you for good. Your choice.

Considering the amount of effort you spent typing up all your arguments in this thread so far, it seems you take GM4Him's opinion pretty seriously, RagnarokCzD. It's clear after the first page of the thread that you're not convincing anyone, and no one can convince you either. So one has to wonder what the real point of your insisting on bashing GM4Him's opinion is. What else are you trying to prove, other than you have a different opinion than the others here? That your point of view is somehow "correct"? Superior? Would it upset you that much if you simply move on and let other people who have the same opinion discuss and have their fun?

I never claimed i will not. :P

Few people asked, yes.
Why would i say it otherwise?

Reeeaaaly.

So ... *this* was some kind of sencefull ontopic post, or w/e would be oposite to senceless pissing match? O_o
I mean, you claim that you want "pleasant BG3 conversations" aswell as you "don't insult you or disrespect me" ... was this example of any of that? :-/

I must say that i feel the urge to write: "Challenge accepted" ...
As i said before, i was wondering how long will you stand for your own word.

But again, same as before, since you refuse to tell me what "this crap" is, its quite logical to presume i would continue it.

You know this reminds me arguing with mad partner ...
When you ask her what is wrong ... she tells you "nothing" ... and then she gets mad that you did not find out what was wrong.

It would be fine to read other people thoughts (sometimes) but i dont do that yet.

Touché.
Some could argue that there is difference between autor and topic itself, but yeah i can see where you get that expression from.

Let me rephrase it:
I cant take your promises seriously.

I hope that is better.

Is it tho?
I mean at least 95% of this whole threat is just me and GM4Him, with occasional reaction from few people on some general stuff (title i would guess, since they didnt adress anything specific we were talking about) ... or on us as users, instead of topic (so just personal attack of opourtunity i gues ... and yes, i count there your post aswell) ... so what exactly in this case "convincing anyone" mean anyway? O_o

Since i do not do that ...
The only thing i can promise is that i will tell you when (or rather even if i ever) start.

But if you are asking what is real point of me writing here ... i gladly tell you (again, since i allready did in this very topic):
I see GM4Him's theories, i like to read them, and concider them ...
Then i see holes and missinterpretations there ...
I examine those holes and point out things i seen / heared / read in game ... expecting anyone who is as interested in GM4Him's theories as i am (yes, including him), to reconcider them and help us both to find where is the stumbling-block.

And why?
Well, as far as i understand it, the very reason for this topic existence was (not to explore my relationship with GM4Him, but) to point out plotholes ...
And since his own theories have plotholes ... im pointing them out, with offering alternative explanations, details that might be oversight, or missinterpreted that will fix them ...

If you ask what i expected (also allready said that)...
It was the same what i offered.
<A> Sazza was in party that was hunting Aradin.
<B> No, no she was in prison when Aradin arived.
<A/C> But she was talking about some looters in Goblin camp, wasnt that aradin?
<A/B/C> Yes, it could be him ... but since she was in prison when he was in camp, it have to be someone else.
That kind of stuff ...
Instead i get (obviously sarcastic): "Oh my gosh! You're right! I'm a moron and I didn't notice all that," (actual quote)

But im not stating any opinion ... you did not read the whole topic, did you? :-/
I simply repeat (quote if you like) things that ARE in game ... sometimes i offer my own explanation for them, or my own connection of dots if you like ...
And as i stated multiple times (and not just here) im all in if someone can show me litteraly anything that actualy is INGAME, wich will proove me wrong.

I would even welcome it, bcs that would mean that at least one person on this forum is capable of ACTUAL dialogue on topic. :-/
Timebean was one light in the darkness, or first swallow as we say in czech ... since s/he (sorry, dunno) actualy reacted on something that was said in here, and i would really not mind at all if s/he would be totally against me ... as long as his argument would be "here you have" isntead of "i think".

Well, personaly i believe that suround myself only by people of same opinion is for one act of weakness, and for two huge reason for degradation ... both in mental and social part of human being. :-/
So ... yeah, i gues it would, if you put it this way ... even tho this question seem to be constructed purposely.

Anyway i never forced anyone to talk with me (nor i even have any tools for that) ... i would apreciate it, sure, that is why i write theese things ... but the same question could be asked other way around ...

Or even better:
Would it upset you that much if you simply move on and let other people who actualy wants to talk about this topic discuss it and have their fun, instead of analyzing them and their relationships?

OK. So here's another one related to Sazza.

Zevlor states that goblins now surely know where the grove is because Aradin led them to the grove. He is convinced that they'll have to leave now because of it. But then, he says later that they are leaving because the Rite of Thorns and the druids are kicking them out. So, he was going to have to leave anyway. Why is he so upset?

And if Zevlor is so upset about goblins now knowing where the grove is, why? Did he see some escape that the player isn't aware of? I mean, we killed all the goblins who came to the gate. Right? So, did he see goblins we didn't see heading off back towards the goblin camp?

And if that's true, and goblins did escape to tell the horde where the grove is, why is Minthara totally oblivious and she then gives Sazza credit for finding the grove? Minthara doesn't seem to have a clue as to where the grove is. So was Zevlor just freaking out for no good reason?

Over and over again, it truly seems like the attack on the grove gate when the MC and his party first arrive should be a MUCH bigger event with lots more goblins and bugbears and worgs. I'm thinking we should see some additional cutscenes. Although we only battle the main force at the gate and kill the goblin captain, there should be something to indicate that goblins were swarming up the walls and fighting tieflings and maybe even some druids too.

I mean, we learn that some chased Findel into the secret tunnels, and that's good. We at least know there were more goblins there, but the way everyone acts, the goblin force should be at least twice the size it is in the game currently, if not bigger, and there should be a bit more to indicate that the tieflings and druids helped to stem off the ones we don't see in the fight. So if not cutscenes, then we should find dead goblin carcasses on the walls and paths nearby, showing that goblins did, in fact, get in. We should have a few tieflings looking pretty banged up and have them state how they barely managed to kill the stragglers that made it over the walls.

I don't really know the best solution here, but the point is that something should be done to give us more of a reason to say, "Dang! Yeah! We saved the grove by killing the goblin captain and forcing them to retreat."

And, if they don't make it back to Minthara to report the grove's location, so that Sazza can get that honor, then we should find a whole lot of goblin bodies on the way to the goblin camp. Then someone at some point should explain how they were goblins from the raiding party that was chasing Aradin, but something killed them on their way back... like ettercaps or phase spiders or Ethel even, who may or may not have plans for the grove and its people.

Ok. Here's another. Druid Secret tunnels. Why is there a dead man with the key to the storage chest on some random rock island fried to a crisp? What's the story there? Some refugee tried to rob the grove storage area? And why is there so much oil spilled everywhere? What's the deal with the tunnels? What are they used for exactly? It's very unclear.

Ye gods, the number of times I have asked this same question. Folks of Faerun spill things willy nilly it seems. Perhaps it because all the mages throw barrels instead of casting spells.

I'm not seriously trying to figure out the purpose of those tunnels. It's baffling me. The more I think about it, and everything in it, the more I'm utterly confused.

You have these evil trap statues who just blast the crap out of you UNLESS YOU'RE SNEAKING which any bad guy in their right mind who is invading a place is going to be likely sneaking in, so what's the point of that... you have some dead guy with a key to a chest containing a druid magic item, so obviously the chest belongs to the druids and the key would likewise belong to them, so why is the key hidden on some random guy in the grass on the other side of a jump on some rocky pedestal?... what was he even doing there?....was he trying to run from the statues or hide from them only to get bombarded by the statues over in that little nook?... why would he try to flee in THAT direction?... Once you land on the first platform they start blowing the crap out of you, so why would he continue DOWN!... why not jump back right away?... then what's with the oil spills... why is a chest containing a druid magic weapon locked away in there when they have a secret vault below the Wolf statue in the heart of the grove that also houses magic items?... so are the secret tunnels a storage area?... are they just set up as a den of traps and evil to kill anyone who might try to sneak in that way?.. I mean, I actually thought this was the case, like maybe the tunnel was just always there and they put a doorway on it, hid it under moss and vines, and set traps to just keep people out. It's like maybe they just don't use it for anything really.

But then, why? You have this main gate that helps protect the grove, so why the back door? Convenience? Escape tunnels? Is it for storage? If anything, it's a MAJOR security issue in the grove. Why not just collapse it?

And what's up with the waterfall entrance/ exit too? Why does no one even concern themselves with that direction or even talk about it? To me, that's probably the easiest way for enemies to get into the grove. It's not much of a climb up to the path. Just go to where Andrick and Brynna were and climb up onto the path from there and wind your way around to the tiefling camp in the grove. MAN! Goblins could come in by the dozens along that way and no one would stop them. So why even bother attacking the main gate? It'd be much harder to defend the grove from that direction. So why aren't there any traps set there? Why set these super awesome deadly magic statue traps in secret tunnels but not in this practically wide open path with no battlements or doors?

And, you know, you COULD get in via the river too, on the east side of the grove. Can goblins not use boats and row around the grove and come up onto the shore?

I'm just saying, the grove's toughest defenses are stuck in some secret tunnel, and they hardly have any true defenses anywhere else. Makes no sense. Doesn't seem like Halsin learned much from his fight with the Dark Justiciars 100 years before the game begins. You'd think after a 100 years, he'd have learned how to better fortify his grove against evil beside simply growing some vines on the gate to kinda sorta cover it, and to put vegetation in front of their secret tunnel door.

Sigh. The more I'm thinking about things, the more problems I find. Larian has a lot of work cut out for them to fix all this. It's a lot of stuff that just isn't making sense the more I think about it.

As for me at the moment it is looking for problems by force. If you think about it, this is how you can break down any game.
Especially since these aren't some serious story holes.

I had the same concerns about the tunnel. It’s just excessively gamey in design. No other area in the game gives off that asshole DM feeling compared to this, really.

Yes they were about to leave "eventualy" ... or at least that is what Zevlor claim ...

I believe he was just stating his curent position ... to show our character that he is stuck between hammer and anvil probably to arouse compassion, and he was not actualy proposing that they should leave right now bcs of Aradin, nor Kagha.
Bcs if he would propose something like that he would not attack us the second we tells him that Kagha wants him to leave imediatly ...

Either that, or it was all just act ...
Many tieflings (kinds mostly) seem to be quite skilled in deception.

Anyone noticed any indication for this? O_o
Bcs i didnt.

Agreed ... but i still dont believe they were part of that group wich was chasing Aradin.
I mean sure, some would keep chasing his group, probably ... but it seem odd that so small group decided to explore secret tunel they just discovered.

I stick to that theory that Larian wanted us to take Long Rest in the Grove, but didnt find the way to force us ... therefore this group arived "next day".

Agreed ...
I would dare to double (maybe even triple) amount of Goblins in their camp ... they are kinda sad "army", if you count them all and concider how expendable they are for Minthara (with this attitude, she would soon have none to comand).

Nah ...
This was not full raid, nor invasion ... just some scouting team chasing few fools.

For one, forcing them to retreat is bad ... you dont want to reveal Grove location, kill them all is the only option here.
For two, we did save the Grove, since its location is still unknown to Minthara, even after Aradin screwed things up so bad.

So big nono for this one.

Leave path of dead goblins would be just the same as placing huge neone sign "secret Druid Groove entrance right here" just abowe that gate.

Totally agreed here, without any doubts.
Almost none on this place makes any sence ...

If that person make it so far, he would have to know how to avoid wrath of those statues ... why did he stop? O_o
There is nothing for him, so why did he even get there ... was he just trying to hide key from his treasure? (seems like only possible explanation)

Presence of both the Oil Barells and Oil Splash is just misstake if you ask me ... especialy since we have so many flamable and nature-friendly materials (resin for example!). :-/

Suggestion:
Now just imagine how easy it would be to fix this place.
> Instead of Oil Barells you give there roots of some tree ... one of them would be leaking resin ... trap maintained, now fits the whole Druidic wibe.
> *IMPORTANT* Add possibility to turn on/off those statues by click if you are wearing Key to the Ancient !!!
> *Important* Make Findal horrified by what he did!!! After you ressurect him give him some dialogue ... sometig like "Silvanus mercy, i killed him!"
And in there give there some dice roll for calming him and persuating him to tell us what he did there ...
Then make him explain that he was there with his friend, hiding some valuable in natural trap (the resin leaking root) they discovered here ... after they hid it and lock the chest, his friend decided to go hide the key on bottom of that strange rock we see in the middle, so Findal deactivated the statues and he went there ... sudently Goblins came in ... Findal panicked and activated the statues ... and last thing he heared, was his friend agonizing screaming.
>:]

Then its entirely on you that if you keep that statues dont attack goblins bcs they are too small to being recognized (but in that case include Sazza, Halflings, Gnomes, and Druids in cat form!) or if you let statues attack them, if they get too close ... wich would mean that Findal activated them too late. (my preffered option)

(Damn im totally going to copy this to sugestion feedback on launcher, bcs i REALLY like it. )

Fun fact: Even if Druids complete Ritual of Thors, this particular entrance is still accesible.

+1

GM4Him you really should take a break from the game and then take a look at the actual dialogues in it, because now you're ignoring some things and making up other things.
There are some underdeveloped plot branches in the game, but not that many of plot holes or contradictions.

Are you sure?

What, Zellin, are you referring to as not plotholes that I mentioned?

I've been working hard to actually fill in the plotholes I found, so maybe an example or two. I don't expect you to address them all as that would be too lengthy. Maybe a brief example.

First: Ragnarok is perfectly right about Sazza, she was never presented as a part of those goblins who chased Aradin, she was captured before and that's perfectly clear from the very first related to her dialogue.
Second: Zevlor never says that tieflings now need to leave the Grove immediatly because of Aradin.
Third: through some dialogues it makes clear that "the looters" are not Aradin and his party, but whoever took "the weapon" (the box) from the crash site.