Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Focused Feedback: Halflings

@FallenJ thanks for the sharing of the videos I found them quite interesting

Yeah, that was part of the bug, I think; when you had dual-wield clicked on, but it wanted to take an action for both, or something of that nature. Something in the process of using them or switching them on or off (melee to ranged) was causing the game to crash, at least. hopefully when they get it fixed I'll be able to check the dual animations again.

And yes, all dogs depicted are actual size. Halflings are small seized creatures, and formally by the rules, they can comfortably used medium sized creatures that are built for such, as mounts... so standard out of the book mastiffs are actually perfect for them. As are blink dogs, hell hounds, boars, hyenas and wolves, to name a few ^.^

In particualr, the ranger's wolf companion looks like he'd make a lovely mount, and I was so sad that I didn't have the option to climb on...

Agreed with this. Not much more else to say.

They look more like gnomes to me at the moment. I agree the model should be tightened up alongside the animations when it gets a pass-over by the devs

No, gnomes look better than that. (Unlike Halflings I hope gnomes look like in the PHB.)
I agree with the halfling suggestions from Niara.

I had meant to mention it here a little earlier, but took a break from the forums and it slipped my mind... but there is some small news to add, inasmuch as Halfling animation rigging is slated to get some serious attention (I'm hoping along with some slight model adjustments, though no word on that), in the planned future of the EA. Nothing concrete, of course, but that's the word received. It's something positive to think on at least ^.^

The male halflings do look like middle aged children.

Some younger heads and some more attention to proportions would help.

The giant hands of smaller humanoids also look distracting and well.. disturbing.

I love Halflings but it bugs me that they are the least popular race out there for players. Nobody noticed forever that the "Lucky" attribute wasn't working. In the PHB it states that Humans, elves and Dwarves are a common site but that Dragonborn, Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-Orcs and Tieflings are considered rare and are met with at least curiosity if not suspicion, hostility (tieflings) or fear (half-orcs).

Although going by player choices it almost feels like the opposite is true. Once Dragonborn are released it will be nothing but wall-to-wall Dragonborn paladins as far as the eye can see.

So, it's been a quiet news week, and I was recently playing another game, and I wanted to share some things with those who are interested.

This game also has halflings in it, and it got me to thinking that perhaps I had been spoiled for good halfling design early on, by a game that cared very much about making them look like real creatures, real people, and a species that is healthy and normal all on its own, rather than a deformed derivative of something else...

So, take a look at these models:

Halfling Base Models

These characters here the 'average' middle range models for male and female halflings in this game, displaying as minstrel and hunter. They have wonderful body proportions – naturalised, balanced and functional. They don't have human-child-like proportions, or any deformations suggestive of dwarfism at all, and they also clearly aren't humans of any scale, either. In this character creator, you can modify your body type, along with the other options, so here's a quick follow up picture – male and female halflings at the two extreme ends of the body spectrum:

Male Halfling
Female Halfling

It's not a huge difference, of course – it's actually quite subtle, but it's enough to create a subtle feeling of difference between your character and the next one over, even before you get to hair, skin, eyes and cosmetic choices, etc.

Amusingly, for halflings in this game, it's less a choice of how much substance you want to have, and more... how 'comfortable' a life you've been living before taking to adventure. Male halflings choose to balance between upper body bulk and pot belly, while females choose to balance between upper body bulk and how prominent their hips and bum seem. It's kind of amusing, and you can still find a very nice middle ground if you prefer.

Female Halfling Variation

Hips – Middle – Shoulders. Subtle, but noticeable.

In terms of their size ratios, here are some comparison shots for halflings alongside human equivalents, both off the base models, and some existing established characters:

Halfling and Human Base Model Compare
Halfling and Human Character Compare

So, we can see from these shots that they aren't derived from the human models at all; they're their own unique things. They're slightly more compact and sturdier in their general proportions, but not enough to make it stand out or look out of place – just enough, rather to make them look fit and able-bodied, and not scrawny, while still being so much smaller. It's more or less perfect, in fact. Yes; the head to body ratio IS larger than it is on the humans, but only by a subtle amount, not a lot – and it looks GOOD. Their heads don't seem tiny, but they also aren't overlarge for their bodies or bobbled at all either.

Added bonus - here's a male stout-axe dwarf as well. He looked pretty good – stout and stocky, but not ridiculous, and you aren't left scratching your head and wondering how he can even exist:

Male Dwarf Base Model

Sure, this game doesn't have motion-captured face scans... which are excellent if you just so happen to want your character's face to look exactly like one of those very specific particular six faces that BG3 has in its arsenal (and you're out of luck if not)... but they make up for it with quite a large amount of face shapes and options, as well as details you can add or select.

So, what about a better look at the actual models themselves?

This is Harla. She's been defending middle-earth for the last fifteen years.

Female Halfling Dynamics Base

As you can see, she's small, but ready for anything, and despite her stature there's no likelihood of her ever being mistaken for one of the local human youths – who at age nine and ten-ish, are all actually taller than her. We quickly realised that the faulds she normally wears aren't really that good for a model study, so I asked her to change into the outfit that better shows off her hips and legs. Harla was a bit embarrassed about this, but relented. We went thought a few dynamic poses and actions just to show off the dimensions of her body a little better.

Female Halfling Dynamics

A few backflips and sparring poses later, and we can see that this is a body model that is solid and strong – capable and well-balanced, and perfectly suited to its own frame and shape. Nothing is over-balanced or exaggerated, and she looks completely believable as a healthy, natural living creature (Okay, a liiiiiitle bit of distension on the arms when she throws herself into the backflips, but it's very quick... I'm lucky the screenshot caught it at all).

We then went outside and took a few more shots, just for fun; here's some comparisons with some of her human friends, and a few of her halfling companions as well:

Human and Halfling Female Direct compare, plus Costumes

Some size and proportion comparisons in our formal wear; this outfit is ceremonially bequeathed upon each kin member who earns their place as one of our most qualified guardians, in commemoration of the first guard, who is no longer with us, but was the best of us, and who always wore this outfit (the hat is an important part of it – Harla only likes to wear hers on very important occasions). We also have sneaky burglars and some cosier gear for colder climates.

These next shots show that some halflings come with more, er, baggage to worry about than others. Remember; good support is always important in times of war. Harla thinks that Gerania's high-visibility tanking outfit is a bit over the top. Gerania wonders how Harla manages to be seen by her allies at all, when she blends into the grass under a mass of trolls and uruks...

Halfling Tanks (For Fun)

Danas, our erstwhile warden joined the gathering late, as usual. He thinks that as long as he stands up straight and tall, and keeps a strong posture, no one will ever know how knuckle-whiteningly terrified he gets in battle. Rosabella likes to encourage him to keep this up; it makes his coin pouch easier to reach. Danas never understands where Rosabella gets all the money for new outfits from... he never seems to have as much as he thought.

Halfling Male and Other Costumes

==

So... what's this all about?

Well, what it boils down to is that these are some really well designed halflings; they look good, they look believable, they're well proportioned and well balanced, and they fit their own bodies in a comfortably natural way. They don't look like human children. They don't look like lazily squashed or scaled down humans either. They don't look like humans with dwarfism, and they don't look unnatural or deformed...

And, in case you haven't spotted it yet... this game is Lord of the Rings Online, and it's Fifteen Years Old. This is an example of doing it right, and it's also a open question: if a fifteen year old game can have models that look this comfortable and well-designed, then why can't BG3 (Or, it must be said, other contemporary D&D CRPG titles)?

*Push*

This still needs to be adressed.

Thanks for the boost, it's appreciated.

I'm intending to take a run through with the latest patch and check all of the animation sets, and see if anything else has been fixed or improved since my last assessment... it's just been very hard for me to find the time in the past week or two!

Time for an update!

A couple of basic comparison shots that I picked up and put together while I was setting up for this post, first of all:



While setting up I found myself looking at the base models again, and I felt compelled just to get fresh images here, as case studies. These are not the models of natural-looking, healthy creatures. All of the existing commentaries apply; hip width and depth ratios are too wide and deep, to a borderline deformed state. When viewed along with the design of the legs, the height scale, the size of the head and the chest depth, this creates a very strong impression of neoteny or dwarfism, not of a naturally healthy creature. Both models, but male halflings in particular, are extremely top-heavy, and bear the head and shoulders (and in the female case, distended bust) of a human-sized creature; larger, in fact, than out human-sized models, which brings me to the original point of today's post.

So... here's something that I haven't specifically drawn attention to except by proxy, but I feel it's worth mentioning as a point of order, regardless of any other changes that may or may not get made.

We've discussed the way that one of the issues with the models currently is that the heads are too large for the rest of the model, creating a number of problems. As I've mentioned earlier, the change that needs to be made is only a minor one, really – it doesn't need to be a huge alteration in order to (along with the other mentioned fairly small alterations in other places) remove the impression of neoteny/dwarfism/infantalism from the current models. Halfling heads can and likely should be Slightly larger in relation to their bodies than the equivalent ratios for human-sized models... just not as much as they are right now. Where they are right now is borderline ridiculous.

In point... Right now, Halfling heads are Physically Larger than the heads on human-sized models. I'm not talking about ratios compared to their bodies, here – I'm talking actual size. Their heads are tangibly bigger than beings twice their size. Here are some comparison shots:



My previous shots didn't do this comparison quite so directly, but here it becomes really clear to see, and it's terrible.

Halflings, male and female in this case, have the same hip and shoulder width and depth as their medium-sized counterparts, but they have also been made thicker and stockier as well, which overall means that these halflings actually have Larger and Broader body dimensions than the medium-sized creatures.

Alongside this, it's clear to see that not only are their head proportions overblown for their own size... they are actually larger overall than the medium-sized comparisons, and that is ridiculous.

So, to refresh and recap for those jumping into the thread without going through the rest of the thread, though I'd strongly encourage it for anyone who has read through this post this far (For those who have already been following along, there's nothing new in these points, it's just a recap on existing stuff for new-comers to the thread):


Last of all for today, a little bonus shot that I snapped while I was nipping characters through for the camp comparisons:



While female halflings sneaking around looks at least passably normalised for their models – or at least not too distended – Male halflings are another story entirely! They move with their hands out far, and wide, once again as though they are trying to hit pose marks designed for larger creatures. The result is a very odd-looking crab-claw, creepy-arm walk that just looks silly on them. In the process, there's something extremely upsetting going on with Feeron's hands here.... I suggested that he needed to see a cleric about those fingers, but he just ignored me and turned to sneak away again... and dear gods, sir, that made it even more unsettling.

I think they should use the same standards and ideals of physical beauty or general attractiveness they used on Human models on the Halfling models. Seeing them side by side you can tell that the Humans look like Olympians, with a chiseled Adonis or Venus like look, and features in perfect proportion to the standards of like magazines or films of the who's hot variety. The Halflings by contrast, look like they've been letting themselves go. I don't mean the heads, but the physical builds from the neck down. The pumpkin head thing on top of that, just makes it even more pronounced. That with the animation clips and weirdness like those spiderfinger and it makes the race pretty undesirable to play as a PC I'd think. I'd be curious to see how many people are even playing as a shorty? Between the Halfling's wonky models and the Dwarves not having a passing voice set.

I'd like different phenotypes for each of the humanoid builds, going pretty much from skeleton to massive hulk along one axis, and slender to heavy on another. But like for each humanoid PC selectable race. I'd like to see the same for the monsters actually.

But yeah, the heads on BG3 halflings are absolutely ridiculous.

I'd love to see just a half-scale Shadowheart Gale standing next to full-scale Shadowheart and Gale on that same rock, just to show what Halflings should actually look like in this game hehe.

ps. I have a hypothesis that if Larian were to change the Halfling models from what they are now to scaled down 1:2 Human models (retaining the same Human proportionality) that many more players would choose to play a Halfling as their PC.

They could test it, though somehow I doubt they will. Alas. I also think there is something about the vibe of taking a trip to Lilliput when you play as a Halfling that you totally lose if, for example, their cranium is markedly enlarged. It makes their scale relative to the environment feel not small enough. I know also that Halflings have a tradition of the giant hairy flipper feet and gangly arms, coming from older edition art direction or out of Tolkien, but I think that works against their appeal and I haven't minded seeing that go elsewhere. I think Dwarves and Gnomes are the humanoid races where the artist can play with proportionality in the Skull and Skeleton and still have it work pretty well. These Halflings all look like Dwarves to me. Halflings I think should just be half-sized Humans. I wish they'd go a different route with it than what they've been doing so far.

Related but unrelated, I think when Clyde Caldwell and others first illustrated the Halflings for Greenwood and such, they were still very much in the Hobbit mode of depiction, like the way Lee did them or Howe or Nasmith. With the village hobbits being more portly and comical, and the venture hobbits going more lithe and athletic or human-like, but still essentially the Shire. But then after the Tolkien estate sued TSR and they went more Halfling Hin with it, I think that is when the idea really opened up that they could be more like 1:2 scale Lilliputians (like from the old movies I mean, where they did it with actors in double projection to trick the eye) rather than the proportions of the Tolkien Hobbits.

To be fair BG1/2 had the models pretty archetypal hobbit lookin' for the paper doll, especially letting the dogs breathe with no boots hehe. Even in the 5 Shires though, you can see the illustration branching out to show quite a variety, and many of the halflings shown have much more proportional figures. Later you really see a kind of split in the depictions. I think the more human-esque proportioned the Halfling characters are, the more they become attractive as a PC choice.

I think Dwarves have a different sort of appeal where you really like to see a more stocky figure like the ones depicted above as Halflings. I wouldn't mind if all the current Halfling models all became Dwarven models, and they went back to Halflings with all new animations/phenotypes and a whole new smaller scale.

The Halflings should stand right about at the elbow height of Shadowheart/Gale/Astarion in the images shown above, and their skulls should be noticeably smaller than the medium-sized human model. I couldn't agree more with that point. Really just a 1:2, as if a human had "Reduce" cast on them to go down 1 size. They would look so much cooler that way!

Dwarves should stand a head taller than halflings so they are easy to distinguish. The Dwarves I imagine at about the height of Human's shoulders say, with the larger sized skulls relative to the human model. Basically what we see on display now.

The Halfling's head would only come up to about a Human's elbows at the tallest, and with a smaller Halfling sized skull. That way you could leave room for Gnomes to be even smaller, say at about a Human's waste height or lower? I think Gnomes could follow the Dwarven proportionality and relatively larger skull-size at 1:2, the same way Halflings would follow Humans/Half-Elf models at about 1:2.

To me that would look good and be easy to parse visually, even from a distance.

ps. sorry this shop is rough, but to give a visual of what a Halfling might look like at that scale standing next to a Human/Half-Elf.... This is actually 66% scale, which is more at the elbow height of a Human. I think it works well for the quick read.



I think that approach would probably make Halflings very popular as a PC choice. I'd like to see Nettie or Aaron as halflings with those proportions, I think it would make them look like Halflings more than beardless Dwarves. I thought Nettie was for sure Dwarven, but it's just hard to tell, and the player goes off what's available to them at Char creation.

Perhaps an even better way to go, and which would probably be appropriate for the times, is to provide a with-dwarfism/gigantism phenotype in the regular Human models as an option at either extreme of the size spectrum.

Like Nettie and Aaron could just be Humans with Achondroplasia, which is what they already appear to be anyway. You know rather than trying to make them Halflings or Gnomes or Dwarves with a V. I mean just put a Willow option in there, and a Fezzik too while they're at it, as Human options though. With more phenotypes that would be a cool add. It's only slightly fucked up that D&D doesn't take a similar formal attitude towards that stuff as they do towards say racial diversity for Humans. They could easily shore that up to be a bit more inclusive, without really giving anything up in the process.

pps. how would you feel about all the current Halfling models just becoming Gnome models?

I mean as Gnomes they kinda work for me, and we've already got the Deep Gnome who gets windmill'd using this model-type/proportionality. That way they could keep all the current NPCs unchanged if they want, just switched the Race field for them. Return to the Halflings and do em up right! Basically looking more like Humans/Half-Elves at 1:2 or thereabouts. They really need to have smaller heads.

I thought halflings were 3 foot so they should be smaller...ill do some digging later

Yes, as of 5e descriptions, they're actually smaller than Gnomes, just barely. Halflings average just under three feet tall, while gnomes average at or just barely over three feet. It's a matter of an inch or two in the averages, but they don't have a lot of inches to count, so every one of them matters ^.^

Ok Gnomes being slightly larger than Halflings works just fine for me. I think the more important thing is that the different kinds of shorties be easy to tell apart at a glance.

Having the Halflings follow Human/Half-Elf proportions just at 1:2 scale is the easiest way to do it I think. Because the visual read there would very different than the stout Dwarven type build.

Halflings would look like runt Humans at 1:2, and Gnomes would look like runt Dwarves at say 1:1.5 or whatever, just shrinking those model types. So the Gnomes would have bigger bobble heads and look a bit more squat following the Dwarven vibe, but standing about the same height as the Halflings. Halflings would have the smaller heads though and be the tiniest at a glance. That would be ideal I think. Just make Halflings shrunk down half elves, with a phenoptype option to be heavier set if the player wants. Give em an option to have foot-beards just for flair lol. Then they could keep their existing model work while also including Gnomes in the process. A double win!

ps. Here another one for a quick read...



Just pretend the gal on the left shows like the female Dwarf/Gnome proportions relative to Shadowheart and a Halfling on the same rock. Gnomes and Halflings would end up about the same height, but the Halflings would be clearly tinier at a glance. Then just give em all some different cloaks. Coupled with the freedom to choose a characters build/phenotype independently and I think we'd have all 3 varieties of shorty still looking pretty recognizable and simple to distinguish from one another.

Pretty much, slap in FR sub races, that'll change up body sizes.

Hobbit is a hobbit. Short, chubby. Keep in mind how much damage couple pints will do on such a small body
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hobbit_drawing_from_lucie_schrimpf.jpg

Elf’s are supposed to be beauties, not halflings (aka. Hobbit knockoffs). Wouldn’t the original appeal of halflings be “I wanna play as Bilbo”? I definitely would be again using similar models as other races, as that defeats the point. Being top down game, exadurated features are welcome. Halflings might look odd every once in a while in a cinematic, but what doesn’t at this point.

That original appeal is largely spent by this point. You can see where it's moving when you compare visual depictions from the 70 and 80s to say the Jackson films or the more recent stuff getting pushed out the door under the D&D banner.

I think its fair to say that Tolkien (and the tales he based his material on) were giving a mythic etiology for the kinds of short-statured humans who have always existed in the real world, and particularly notable in the entertainment industry.

Initially the conception in D&D was probably to have Achon-dwarfism represented by the "Dwarves" (think Willow or Tyrion, old Hollywood little-people) whereas Proportional-dwarfism, primordial or Seckels is represented more by the "Halflings" (think General Tom Thumb as the most famous example historically.)

Whether or not it was fucked up to make those types fantastical e.g. different races than "Human" in the first place, is probably something that no one at Wizards really wants to address head on. They're probably relieved that the issue is bound to get way less attention than the more fraught Racial stuff with Drow or Half-Orcs, but it's kind of a similar situation. I honestly have no clue how many D&D players are little people, or if they even care about how these depictions are framed out. I mean I'd assume they do, but I don't know for sure. To me it seems like both races of shorties in BG3 seem to be riffs on the Achon type, but without fully going there. Having one D&D Race following that proportional model is probably sufficient, and Dwarves seem most appropriate for that to me, though if they need a second it should be Gnomes in my view. They should do something a little different for Halflings.

I think many players like having Dwarves and Halflings around, but I would be curious to see how their popularity measures as a main PC choice in this game. Having stuff exist mainly as a token, but not being used kinda defeats the purpose a bit. I think there may also be a subtle gender preference thing going on, where Dwarves are more appealing to men and Halflings to women (to play as a PC I mean) but that's totally speculative, based more on the beard thing, and I don't want to to introduce too many hotbutton things into one post here. Suffice it to say, that I think Halflings would be a considerably more popular choice if they followed the proportionality I suggested in the image from the post above just cause it would look rather different. That's just a hypothesis though. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me. And while I'm there with my gut, having a heavy-set racial phenotype also strikes me as rather problematic and unnecessary. I should be able to play a portly Elf or rail thin Halfling if I want to, descriptions in Tolkien notwithstanding. They should separate those choices into a separate char creation field, even if the defaults might suggest one or the other. There should be a way to change the physical build on any race available as a PC choice, Halflings included.

To say it another way, I think if they want to do visual depictions that suggest Achonoroplasia, like say in a kind of nod to the Hollywood fantasy inheritance and legacy, that it could be an option among the human phenotypes, along with one at the other end of the spectrum for gigantism. The fantasy races Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings should I think have a more otherworldly appearance to distinguish them. Failing that, then I guess give the Dwarves a more Achon vibe, and the Halflings more like Thumb, because to me I think that's where it came from. But I don't know that D&D really wants to go there. (Interesting Off topic on topic read.)

Instead was thinking they could just make the Halflings key off the Humans at 1:2 and optionally the gnomes key off Dwarves. More for simplicity of execution. Like so they could just scale the animations and models of 2 sets to create 4, and still give a distinct visual read.

Or I don't care maybe invert it? So the Gnomes follow Human/Half elf proportions? I mean in Tolkien Gnomes are just Noldor Elves so it kinda works. But then maybe they catch another lawsuit going that way lol. I think the first way would be easier and more in line with 5e depictions I've just been looking up now. I always kinda pictured Gnomes as the tiniest in 2e. But its more about making them easier to tell apart at the glance. Since the scale is what gives them the quick read and right now its like huge for the Halflings relative to the Humans. In Tolkien the Hobbits get taller overtime until eventually they are just like humans in later ages, so to me it makes sense. Their skulls need to be smaller than the Human models though, or it doesn't read right to me at all.

Lee shows it well, which one is the Bilbo? That's what I'm saying. Right now the Halflings look hard to distinguish from the Dwarves.