Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Let's make Minthara Great Again

Its not intimidating ...
As long as she keep in some bounds, its totally okey.

I mean if Halsin have 17 (dunno, just saying IF) ... if Ragzlin have 17 (i dare to presume his class WILL be Barbarian in the end) ... if Gut have 17 ...
Then, logicaly, Minthara should not have 21.

I mean we all know that you want her to be the most badass of them all, but that allone is quite weak argument. :-/

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In other words ... yes 15 is too little ... 21 is too much ... 18 is between them, and it sounds reasonable ...
Let minthara have some +3 AC boost, dont change any stats on her loot, she allready gives us awesome items and that is enough ... and everything is fine.

I'm not looking to have her be the biggest, toughest of them all. I'm looking to have her be what she should be according to her class and level. Ragzlin is a hobgoblin Warlord, or barbarian as you say. Either way, he should not be too hard to hit because he is a damage dealing enemy, meaning his purpose is not defense but offense. So I would expect him to hit hard but to be easier to hit. Gut is a magic user, possibly another cleric, but more like a goblin shaman, so I would expect her to be a bit squishier but have more spells. Both of these two seem to be built just fine with these concepts in mind.

But Minthara is a full-blown cleric. Clerics are tanks, meaning they have high defense and lower offense, typically with healing spells and spells that buff allied stats. With her AC being so low she is the antithesis of what a cleric should be, a tank.

So I'm not looking for her to be some really tough damage wielding offensive and defensive Superior boss. She should have high AC and do a lot of buffing her minions. Again, if Tav and several party members can have, by that point, an AC of 20 or more, it isn't unreasonable for a cleric boss to also have an AC of 20 or more. Again, I'm just looking for her to be a match to the players, not overpowered. If she has a base AC of 15 due to her armor, that is a basic AC for clerics, not even enhanced AC. If you're equipped with half plate armor like Lae'zel starts with, and you add a shield to that, your character would be at AC 20. Why should Minthara, then, be in some sort of armor that is inferior to your and your companions starting armor? You're starting armor can be, and often is, better than minthara's special drow armor.

Again, they have her suited up as if she is wearing a rogues armor. Not a cleric, but a rogue. I don't think what I'm asking is some super huge deal because I'm just asking for her to wear armor that is appropriate for a drow cleric at level five. Her armor should be no less then 15 or 16 plus dex.

As far as i know, Barbarian is one of most effective tanks in game, IF its played properly. O_o
Their characteristic feature is not "just damage", but also surprising toughness. :P

I dont know about any "shaman" class ... if you do, please send me some link.
Therefore yes, Gut is just another Cleric ... yet her stats dont seem to bother you at all. O_o

Nobody does ... why even mention that then? O_o

Is it?
Often? I mean the only examples there are Cleric and Fighter ... those are 2/8 classes. That is hardly "often".

And yes, Minthara's special Drow Armor is better ... its 1AC better than any other non-Drow leather armor you find.
And that should be enough.

Nobody said that every Cleric in the world have to be most effective Cleric in the world ...
What exactly is stoping her from wearing Drow armor? She is obviously not standing in first lines.

Why cant you satisfy with that she would get some AC boost from other source, that would not give you ridiculously OP armor right from the start?
The answer seem obvious, since you dont care about other cleric in the same quest ... all you actualy wants is better loot, this isnt matter of any "proper equipment for boss" ... that is just covenient excuse, bcs if that would really and i mean REALLY bother you, it would bother you in every case and not just this one.

Same story as we had in Evil Route debate ...
You just keep demanding rewards nothing else matters as it seems ... better armors, better weapons, better everything ... -_-

Because she's a cleric, Ragnarok. She's not a rogue or a warlock.

Barbarians should have starter AC of 10+Dex+Con because they have Unarmored Defense. So, Ragzlin, I would expect, should have an AC of maybe 14 or 15 (10+Dex of maybe 1+Con of maybe 3 or 4).

Clerics should start with either Leather, Scale Mail or Chain Mail depending on their domain and their Dexterity stat. If you have a high dexterity and focus on stealth as a cleric, then yes. Leather is more appropriate. So, someone like Shadowheart should start with Leather because she is supposed to be a cleric of Shar of the domain of Trickery. Can she wear Scale? Yes, but Scale provides a Disadvantage to stealth rolls.

So, one could argue that Minthara is of the Trickery domain and Leather is therefore appropriate. Leather + 1 then works for her. OK. I can maybe live with that. However, if that is the case then they need to rework her stats. She should have high Dex and low Strength. She should be equipped with a Shortsword or Rapier, for she would be more proficient with a Finesse weapon than a Mace because she could then hit better with a Finesse weapon.

So, if they are going that route, she should have like Dex 16 at least and would thus have AC 12 for her Drow Leather Armor + 3 for Dex + 2 for her shield = 17 AC total. She should also then be using more trickery based spells and attacks, slipping into shadows, using Invoke Duplicity, etc, and again, she should be using a Finesse weapon to hit better with. She'd gain a +3 just for her Dex with a Finesse weapon as opposed to like a +1 for Mace.

You could also argue that maybe she's a strong cleric of the trickery domain and not particularly awesome at stealth and other trickery domain abilities. Okay. Fine. She has higher strength than dex and uses a mace. If you don't have a high Dex, then it is stupid to have Leather armor. If her dex only provides a +1 or +2, then it is best to give her Scale Mail + 1 for a base of 16 AC + 1 or 2 Dex. Then give her a shield and make it harder to hit her.

But regardless, the problem I have is that Minthara is not a starter character. She's an experienced person at Level 5. She should not be given some basic starter equipment. Clerics can wear Medium Armor at the very least. So even if she's of the trickery domain, she can still wear a Breastplate + 1 which would provide a base AC of 15 + Dex (max 2) and it wouldn't hinder stealth. So why not give her a similar armor set as a standard Cleric would have with a +1 to it. If she has 15 AC to start +1 or 2 for Dex, that's AC 16 or 17 and then add her shield to it for a total of 18 or 19 AC, assuming she'd have only a base shield and not a Shield + 1, which wouldn't be a huge deal for a boss to have.

So, again, I ask, why give her a Leather + 1 when she could have a Breastplate + 1 which is better and doesn't hinder stealth? I'm not asking for a huge spike in AC. I'm just saying she should be at least somewhere around what your cleric could and should be in terms of AC by this point in the game.

And for the love of God, do NOT change the appearance.

Depends ...
If Ragzlin is 15Str, 15Dex, 17(+2 Racial)Con, 8Wis, 9(+1 Racial)Int, 8Cha ...

That would make him 10 + 2 + 3 ... 15 ... since he dont have Shield (his loss ... but you see? nobody cares that he is not using "most effective options for his class")
Also when Raging he would have "resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage" ... quite important part.

Scale indeed does ...
But Breastplate does not while providing same AC ... so i would say that Shadowheart's custom armor does not violate any rule ... maybe except being named wrong.

Also, as i was trying (and failed ) to find Shadowheart's armor ... i find that certainly not all chain armor in BG-3 cause disadvantage on stealth rolls:
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dark+Justiciar+Mail
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Robust+Chain+Shirt
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Slippery+Chain+Shirt
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Chain+Shirt++1
https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Chain+Shirt

I agree ...
That would be much better in every way.

Still ... sounds good to me.

What are you talking about? She have shield.
You adressed the problem corectly here ... she is cleric, but obviously not exactly clever one. :P

I collored the most important word in this sentence.


If you read the post abowe ... i allready agreed with AC 18 ...
So why are we even keeping this conversation exactly?

OK. Here is my point in a nutshell:

If you, the player, had a choice for your character. You could either have your character wear Leather + 1 or Breastplate + 1, which would you wear? Leather + 1 provides AC 12 + Dex, so if your character had Dex 16 (+3 bonus), you'd have AC 15. Breastplate + 1 provides you 15 + Dex (max 2 bonus), so you'd have 17 AC. Which would you have your character wear? Neither has any penalties to stealth?

I'd have my character put on the Breastplate + 1 because it provides a higher AC. So why SHOULDN'T they give Minthara at least Breastplate + 1 armor and make her even more of an awesome enemy.

You do know that this is a post labeled "Make Minthara Great" right? Right now, I see her as almost perfect for the game. So let's go that little extra mile and keep the armor's appearance but make it something LIKE Breastplate + 1 with AC 15 + Dex (max 2 or 3) and give her a Dex stat boost like a cleric of the trickery domain should have, and boost that AC to something like 19 or 20, like she should have if she's carrying a shield or shield + 1.

So, to recap, visually, armor remains as is and she remains as is. Beautiful! Wonderful! Now, increase armor AC to 15 and give her a Dexterity of 16 with a +3 bonus. So, let's say that boosts her to AC 17 with a max of 2 for the Dex bonus for her armor. Add to that, now, her shield and make it a Shield + 1 because she's a boss drow who should probably have a better shield, not just better armor and weapon, so she's up to 20 AC. Bam. Good. Perfect. Done.

But, even if you want to just give her a regular shield, AC 19 is not a super difficult AC to hit at this stage in the game. I just think she should, at this point, have a Shield + 1, but maybe that's just me.

This is where you made your misstake.
She dont have any Breastplate to wear ... therefore she dont wear any Breastplate. :P

Simple as that.

I agree with GM4Him, at least in regards to Minthara needing better armor.

1. Her fight should be harder, in my opinion. Now, you might ask, why should her fight be harder than Gut's fight? Because she's a drow and Gut's a goblin. Gut's just not a boss on the same level as Minthara.

2. What's wrong with wanting better loot from the fight? I get the feeling from some of your comments that you think that's a dirty secret motivation. There's a real lack of good armor in the game right now. I'm not the only one who's sick of scale mail. It'd be nice if a tough, cool enemy dropped some great armor. Upgrading gear through loot is a time honored tradition in gaming.

I believe that coment where i said "you only want better reward" betrayed me ... ?

You missunderstand me ...
I dont mind if she drops some regular Breastplate as long as she will wear it ...
Hells ... i would be even all in for her wearing Breastplate, while this armor she would have in some chest right next to her table as memento for old times.

I just cant help the feeling that her curent visual is simply too perfect to break it for one stupid armor, wich you will change anyway in few hours top.

Also i was not against her droping different armor, i was against her droping Leather armor that gives 12+3AC+Dex (and im not quite sure right now if there is +1 to Stealth ... but i believe there is) ... wich would practicaly mean that your rogue will get best bear per Act from one of first 3 bosses in game.
And final reason ... siding with Tieflings and killing Goblin leaders allready gives you MUCH MUCH MUCH better reward, than siding with Minthara and slaughtering them ... i dont see any reason to weight those scales even futher. :-/

Therefore im all in for incerasing HER AP ... either by buff, or by alterning her statistic ...
But i dont want this armor to change, since as it is its allready one of 2 best Leather armors you can get (as far as i know at leat) ... so there is really no reaason to push it futher.

That's the one!


I'm okay with it being leather, but I think it should be +2. At this point in the game, the players are likely wearing a +1 suit of leather, so a +2 is a nice upgrade. I would also consider upgrading her shield to a +1. There are some okay looking shields in the game so far, but it would be nice to have one with a bonus to AC.

Yeah. I think maybe Ragnarok and I are not understanding each other again. I'm good with Leather + 2 if they give her a Dex boost and trade Strength for it. I don't mind her with a boost in Dex but her stats still need to be balanced like any normal character.

So, I think these should be her stats:

Strength 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

Her level 4 upgrade took her Wis from 14 to 16.

Then she wears Drow Leather, AC 13 + Dex, so AC 16. With Shield + 1, she'd have AC 19.

Then turn her mace into a Rapier. Same everything else about it, but she uses a rapier instead of a mace because of finesse. Then, in combat, have her using stealth-based moves. If she uses Shield of Faith, AC boost to 21. If she uses Mirror Image, she's even harder to hit.

Perfect.

Drow leather is 12+Dex ... and she wears regular 2AC shield ... so 17 is the outcome, 19 with shield of faith.
Sounds reasonable to me.

Im not sure about that rapier tho ...
I mean Shadowheart also isnt proficient with litteraly any Finesse weapon, except Daggers.
Also if you concider that she right now is droping best Rogue Armor (12AC, +1Stealth) you can get from EA ... and best caster Neck (free Misty Step) you can get ... and you would also change her weapon to Shortsword, wich would mean yet another weapon perfect for Rogue, since its causing Faerie Fire ... and coolest looking shield ...
I mean, how can you even keep demanding more?

Compared to Spider Queen, that drops only chest armor, that is usefull only if you use Poison spells ...
Compared to Ragzlin, who drops only 1/2H Mace that have interesting utility, but certainly isnt best Weapon you can find ...
Compared to Gut, who drops shield that curses you unless you are branded ... and neck that i personaly never used even tho every game at least single character is wearing it.
Compared to Kagha, who gives you one of most questioned necks in the game (wich is awesome in my honest opinion tho)
Compared to i dunno ... Gnoll leader, who drops very good 1H mace, with really nasty backfire ...

I mean, come on, Minthara is allready givin us thrice as much compared to litteraly anyone else.
Keep your greed in check for somebodys sake.

Two things I noticed just now as I right clicked and Examined Minthara:

1. Yeah, either her stats need a reworking or she needs better armor. I don't care what you say Ragnarok, her armor does not fit her character with those stats. Her Dexterity is 12, meaning she only gets a +1. That Drow Leather Armor does her absolutely no good. She should be equipped with something like a Half Plate + 1, giving her AC of 16 + Dex + Shield + 1, thus giving her an AC of 20. End of story. What does she care about stealth? She's got Dex of +1, so her stealth isn't going to be that great anyway. Why not buff her defense? If she was a player character, that's what I'd do for her, and as a DM, that's the only thing that makes sense with her current stats. Since she's carrying a magic Mace, and her Strength is higher, the rest of her gear set works just fine. And, I might add, that armor in no way looks like leather. She's got pauldrons on her shoulders. Metal pauldrons. That's not leather.

As an alternative, if she is going to keep the Drow Leather, they should then flip her Dex and Strength so she's weaker but more Agile. Then the Drow Leather works. Give her Dex 16 or higher and Strength 10 or 12. As long as the Drow Leather provides a base AC of 13 + Dex and her Dex is 16 or more, the Drow Leather will continue to work. But then Xyandre's Fire needs to be a rapier because that's a Finesse weapon which makes more sense for someone with high Dex to use. She'd get a higher attack bonus with a rapier than with a mace in this alternate version. Anything less than this is unacceptable as a player and/or DM. Giving a Drow Cleric Leather Armor + 1 when she has a Dex of 12 is just not wise character design.

2. Minthara is a Nightwarden? When did this happen? Has she always been a Nightwarden? Is this new? If so, they've just given us a bit more about her character, I think, which I'm not sure totally aligns with her being of House Baenre, but it definitely says she wasn't some slave of a drow house. Does anyone know more about Nightwardens? I'm not familiar with them. This is all I could find online, and I'm not sure it lines up with Forgotten Realms Lore:

The Nightwardens are an Drow organization that serves as the principle military force of Umbravall. Nightwardens consist, primarily of fighters and rogues, as well as clerics and paladins in service of Lolth. One of the Wardens primary duties is the defense of the prison known as Deephold; where many dangerous criminals are kept beneath Umbravall. Currently, the Nightwardens are hunting a large number of convicts that escaped from Deephold alongside the red wyrm, Daggerspine.

Umbravall, also known as The Throne of the Depths, is the primary city of the Drow, as well as being the entirety of their nation. It rumored to be completely unassailable by outside forces; due to the shifting labyrinth of tunnels that is said to be completely impassable by non-drow.

Umbravall, and indeed all of Drow society, is led by the divine Empress Vyalia and a cabal of powerful Grand Clerics.

It is home to the prison Deephold; possibly the highest security prison within Teshol and home to several dangerous convicts dating from present day, all the way back to pre-scalewar. Many of whom escaped alongside the ancient red dragon Daggerspine.

Either way, Nightwarden sounds like more of an elite drow, especially if she was once a drow cleric at a maximum security prison. Dang! Should she only be Level 5? I have to go back to that. Level 5 does not seem high enough.

But then, if they are going for a reset when you get the True Soul tadpole, that could explain why she's a lower level even though she may have been something like a Level 12 to 15 character previously.

Yeah i can see that ... that would explain why you keep persuating me that her stats are wrong, even tho i allready mutliple times agreed on that they should ben adjusted to fit her better.

That is question of design ... it looks just as leather as any other Drow Leather armor.

Looks can be deceving.
You know who else have "no armor" robe made from metal and leather parts?


Since i agreed with this statement like 4 times allready, i dare to skip to the important part:

In that case i demand Rapier proficiency for Shadowheart ... since she is Dexterity Cleric, but sadly isnt proficient with any Finese weapon ...
Using same logic, that should also be unacceptable. :P

Drow are naturally proficient with rapiers.

My point is that I disagree with what you think.

1. She should not have Drow Leather. Period. Her stats currently speak of strength, not dexterity, so not only is the easiest approach to NOT switch her stats around completely, but her character speaks strength and not deception or stealth. She is a strong character, not crafty and sly and sneaky. Everything about her speaks strength, so a Mace is more appropriate for her, and so is top line Medium Armor. A cleric with higher strength and lower dex would not be caught dead in Leather unless they absolutely had to. They'd be wearing Scale or Breastplate or Halfplate. Why? Because her dex maximum is only +1. Meanwhile, her strength is much higher to make her more of a non- finesse wielding individual, making her NOT a rogue-like leather armor wearing individual. Again, if I played her as a player character, I would not be wise to put her in any leather at all. Even basic, non-magical Scale or Half Plate is way better for her stat-build.

2. It would be much easier for Larian to simply call it Drow Half Plate Armor and boost its AC to 15 then to rework all her stats and weapon set. So why go with the whole rebuild Minthara into a rogue-like character just so she can wear Leather + 1 more efficiently when you could simply call it Drow Half Plate with + 1 to normal Half Plate AC and call it a day?

So, again, absolutely do not change the look, but the armor has to go, not a revamp of all her stats and stuff just to make the armor work as Drow Leather.

Half-Plate armor that looks litteraly exacly as recollored Leather ...
That is just not good desing. :-/

And now we get to the real root of the issue. You think her new armor looks like leather and you love it so don't get rid of it.

I think her new armor looks like fancy Drow Plate and I love it and don't want to get rid of it but I want them to name it Drow Half Plate because it looks to me like Half Plate.

Let's look at her armor again:

[/url][/quote]

Here is Lae'zel's Half Plate:

https://images.app.goo.gl/GyMxB2jEQS2UKoPw6

Here is Leather Armor in BG3:

https://images.app.goo.gl/3NfXsNA45s1Fp7X86

Here's Drow Leather in BG3:

https://images.app.goo.gl/oFepMVgNBR8SHRnL8



To me, her new armor looks way more like Lae'zel's Half Plate than Astarion's Leather.

This is image i would expect from someone who played this game for first few hours ...
From you ... that really seems like purposeful lie ... since i really honestly doubt you never seen both tooltip for this armor you posted (especialy this part: The sun's harsh light has dulled this armour's lustre - and its power.) and what petrified Drow around Spectator were wearing ...

So here is few pictures of ACTUAL Drow Armor:

As for what Minthara is wearing ...
There is expression in my language: Not all that glitters is gold.
In this case you could switch gold for metal.

Ok. I'm done. We'll just agree to disagree. I do not in any way think that Minthara's armor looks like leather, and you are thoroughly convinced it does, so let's just end this little debate here.

It not just "looks" like leather.
It obviously IS leather ... just recollored.