Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides Party Size Discussion

This is similar to the "don't like it? don't use it" argument that's also used for other Larian homebrew like lack of long rest restrictions, eating food to heal, shove instakills, bonus action jump+disengage, wizards learning cleric scrolls, trivial stealing from merchants, etc. (Note: I restricted these examples to things that are actually possible to avoid, unlike e.g., BA Shove which enemies will use against you.)

This is Larian's problem because games require restrictions; it's not fun to have to purposefully nerf yourself as a player. And Larian allowing a party size of up to 6 by default (meaning: the 5th+6th companion you find will automatically join your party if asked, and the game wont warn you that "BG3 is balanced for parties of 4") is poor game design. Players will have to consciously decide to continue to play with 6 or play with less than a full party, either making the game easy or having a game with less party banter & companion-specific-story-interactions respectively.

My proposed solution to the above is a hard toggle in settings that defaults to off, that isn't advertised, and that comes with a warning "this game is balanced for 4-person-parties." This would be enough of a disincentive that I wouldn't feel bad playing with 4, but would still allow people to play with 6 if desired. Also add a "split exp" toggle, so your party-of-6 can either be balanced or not: the player can choose.

I never said anything contrary to Larian issuing a warning to players who use the option. In fact, I have said it myself in previous posts that Larian can provide a very stark and clear warning, for example a large popup that comes up on your screen the moment you toggle that option.

Right. Exactly. So how is it any different for those of us who want to play with six? If you get to have the choice to make the game harder for you (by getting to play solo), why shouldn't I have the SAME choice to make the game easier for me (by playing with six)?

As always, this is easily solved by options and exp splitting. If you want to play a challenge solo mode, don't enable exp splitting and level up at normal speed. If you want to play a normal-difficulty solo mode, enable exp-splitting (and/or Lone Wolf). It'd take Larian ~zero additional effort to make such changes optional instead of mandatory settings.

It's like saying, "Here's the rules to DnD. Now, play DnD."

"Wait! We're changing the rules because DnD is too hard..."
(blah blah blah, we know what changes was made)

Are you still playing DnD?

This is similar to the "don't like it? don't use it" argument that's also used for other Larian homebrew like lack of long rest restrictions, eating food to heal, shove instakills, bonus action jump+disengage, wizards learning cleric scrolls, trivial stealing from merchants, etc. (Note: I restricted these examples to things that are actually possible to avoid, unlike e.g., BA Shove which enemies will use against you.)

My proposed solution to the above is a hard toggle in settings that defaults to off, that isn't advertised, and that comes with a warning "this game is balanced for 4-person-parties." This would be enough of a disincentive that I wouldn't feel bad playing with 4, but would still allow people to play with 6 if desired. Also add a "split exp" toggle, so your party-of-6 can either be balanced or not: the player can choose.

Should the game be a party of 6 and set to D&D stats? It should at least be an option for those of us who REALLY want a genuine D&D experience with a real challenge because if you gave us a real Bulette fight and let us be Level 5 or 6 by the time we go into the Underdark, with a party of 6, our characters would not be slaughtered by it, and you wouldn't have to nerf the creature to avoid pissing off your entire fan base.

No. Ragzlin... can I call you Ragzlin? Thanks. It's much shorter and easier to type.

Ragzlin, I'm basing it purely on what BG3 was supposed to be based on. It was meant to be based on D&D 5e. If you take the way the game is CURRENTLY designed, it really fits more for a party of 5-6 characters. It has nothing to do with what I'm wanting or presuming.

A party of 5-6 Level 1 characters could defeat 3 Imps at a time. A party of 1-2 could not. Period. That's the logistics of it. If Larian used proper Imp stats instead of their nerfed down homebrew stats, there is very little possibility that a party of 1-2 (MC + Lae'zel) could beat 3 Imps. Period.

And IF you only had a party of 1-2, then by the end of the very first encounter, even IF you managed to somehow beat 3 imps, you would gain, using XP Split, enough experience to level up to Level 2. So it is clear that:

A. They are not using proper D&D stats but have nerfed the enemies considerably because they know you will likely (in single player mode) only have 1-2 characters on average to face 3 imps, and

B. That if you only face said 3 imps you'd gain enough XP to gain a level up after your first encounter. So they severely nerfed how many XP's you should get from that encounter so you don't level up right away.

So, what I'm trying to say is that the encounters are already based on the expectation that you will start with a party of 4 (single or multiplayer) and you'll add at least Lae'zel (and possibly Us) to your party to make a party of 5 or 6 by the time you face your first Imp encounter. Again, however, that would only be IF they used actual D&D 5e stats. My point is that the way the encounters were initially constructed, it had to be assumed you'd have 5 or 6 in your party in order to defeat 3 Imps. Then they realized that "Oh dang! There might only be 1-2 characters in single player mode. We'd best nerf everything because most people are going to be playing this with only 1-2 characters in the party by this point."

So, what I'm saying is, make it so players start with 4 Customized Characters whether single or multiplayer, increase party size to 6, and use proper D&D stats, and the entire game would be perfect for a legit D&D 5e experience with proper XP gain per encounter and proper challenge ratings and so forth.

Then use Difficulty settings to allow players to adjust to their own desired number of characters. If you want 4, adjust Difficulty to make encounters easier (nerfed) like it is now.

But for the love of all that is holy, give players the option to have up to 6 and make that the norm. Then make options to allow players to balance it more for their preference.

You always start big and then work down to small. You never start small and work big or it never works right.

If they were to balance the game right now based on 1-4 party size, they'd need to nix every encounter in the prologue and almost every encounter in the game if they were to use proper D&D stats, and that's what I'm trying to say. The game is actually, literally built for 5-6 party size. I've tested it via Tabletop. I know what I'm talking about. It is WAY to hard with a party size of 4 unless you severely nerf EVERYTHING, which is the current state of the entire game.

Multiplayer. 4 players. Severely limited. Dumb dialogue that makes no sense. Too easy gameplay. Can't do origin side quests because you can't even have them in the party... Not even 1.

And injured imps and intellect devourers ain't the problem.

Imps don't have resistance or poison stings.
Intellect devourers aren't newborns if they have max HP that equals that of adults.
Intellect devourers don't do their very basic signature move, devour intellect.
Intellect devourers don't have resistance.
Phase spiders don't ethereal jaunt, they misty step across the board.
Phase spiders spit poison.
Bulette doesn't wipe the floor with 4 level 4 characters when it can almost wipe the floor with 6 level 5s.

And I could go on and on and on and on.

Fact:. Stats are severely nerfed to fit the mold of the very limiting 4 character max party.

Fact: 4 player multiplayer is severely limited and gameplay quality reduced because of 4 character party max.

Fact: 6 character max works IF proper stats are used for monsters. If not proper stats, party of 6 is too easy.

Solution: Provide an option for max 6 plus an option for true D&D stats.

Ok. Let's put it another way:

4 party limits gameplay for those who play multiplayer with 4 players.

6 party limits no one.

4 party = current stats and so forth. No change.

6 party = option to use proper D&D stats. Change doesn't hurt or limit anyone.

So why not give those of us who want a 6 party the OPTION to have it and to have it with proper D&D stats so it isn't so easy it's boring? Why fight it if it doesn't limit or change your gameplay in any way?

Party of 6 will trivialize the content. This is a point that has been made, and refuted with "so what"..

A AAA budget. I think they might be able to afford a single difficulty setting using proper D&D stats and go into the code and change some 4s to 6s especially since they've said in the past they will do difficulty settings eventually and especially since it is obviously so important to a lot of people.

Party of 6 will trivialize the content. This is a point that has been made, and refuted with "so what".

It has also been refuted with "implement split exp," which (since the exp forumla can be freely modified) will basically by definition be able to balance the game.

But also, yes "so what?" Does it affect you if some people turn on a toggle to play an easier game with a party of 6?

I still say it's too far along in development.