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Originally Posted by dza101
Regarding "Strange Riders in these parts", Elturgard was only founded sometime in the first half of 1400s, it didn't exist yet in 1385... So it seems like Moonhaven was around still after 1385..

No, check out the Elturel Forgotten Realms Wiki. It was founded in the mid 1300s, not 1400s.

The Hellriders were around in 1371, so it adds up.

Link to the Elturel Wiki

Sozz #800560 15/11/21 05:38 PM
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Elturgard was formed in the 15th century. Elturel was older. Elturgard is formed when Elturel and it's Hellriders begin to take other towns and societies in the Heartlands under it's "guard", which starts

From your link:
Quote
In the late 15th century DR, it was the capital of the realm of Elturgard
Quote
By the late 1430s DR, through a variety of excuses, Elturel had laid claim to the lands of its neighbors, placing them within "Elturel's Guard" as they called it, making itself a petty regional power

That in turn only happened because of the fall of Scornubel as a major trading hub due to the Spellplague, which occured in 1385.

Last edited by Dexai; 15/11/21 05:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by ALexws
Check out Chubblot patch 5 narrator's voice line video, around 39:25, you'll get your answer.

Well, thank you. That evidence is about as strong as evidence gets.

Originally Posted by ALexws
Throm's daughter(apparently). We don't know how the storyline has been updated. It might get changed.

Okay, I'm starting to see some stuff. The reference to Isobel was removed in Patch 4. The patch notes say:

"Updated text of Halsin's Shadowcursed research journal to remove references to killing Isobel."

That does make it complicated. The idea that the storyline itself is being tweaked can't be ruled out, making some of our guesswork even more questionable.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Elturgard was formed in the 15th century. Elturel was older. Elturgard is formed when Elturel and it's Hellriders begin to take other towns and societies in the Heartlands under it's "guard", which starts

From your link:
Quote
In the late 15th century DR, it was the capital of the realm of Elturgard
Quote
By the late 1430s DR, through a variety of excuses, Elturel had laid claim to the lands of its neighbors, placing them within "Elturel's Guard" as they called it, making itself a petty regional power

That in turn only happened because of the fall of Scornubel as a major trading hub due to the Spellplague, which occured in 1385.

I see it as the Hellriders being around already, which they were. They're coming from Elturel, as mentioned.

So we have this notice written by someone essentially saying, "Hey, there are these guys riding around. They call themselves the Hellriders, and they're speading the message of a place called Elturgard, which I've never heard of, and I don't acknowledge."

To me, that means the idea of holy Elturgard was around, but wasn't officially acknowledged past the lips of a few militant riders. Some years later, the kingdom would become official on maps.

Basically, it's all plausible stuff from the year 1371. There's no need to dispute the date that Moonhaven fell.

The dated Dark Journal of Ilyn Toth is all that's needed to establish the year.

Sozz #800565 15/11/21 06:13 PM
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Around 1358 DR through 1367 DR, Hellriders numbered approximately 2000 women and men and around 1372 DR, their number was given as 200 mounted warriors.

A typical Hellrider patrol of the mid-1300s numbered thirty warriors, with at least one cleric of Helm and led by a Marshal. They also had foot patrols of twenty warriors around the city. Travelers most often encountered the Hellriders via these patrols.

It was said that a company of Riders had once ridden into the Hells themselves—namely Avernus, the first layer—and from this story, the Hellriders were named.[1][2][8][14][15] The earliest known version told that it was to rescue one of their own, such was their great loyalty to each other.[2] A later version said that they rode through a gate to hunt down and slay devils that had been harassing the good people of Elturel.[8]

A third account expanded on this. In this story, fiends roamed the Fields of the Dead north and west of Elturel, stripping fields bare, slaying livestock, burning houses, and dragging folk away to an unknown yet horrible doom. As people lived in fear, Elturel's cavalry fought the fiends, riding wherever they must and enduring great casualties, but the fiends kept appearing in greater number. The High Rider of Elturel implored the people to pray to the gods for help. Surprisingly, help came—the rogue angel Zariel (desiring to destroy devils and demons and to have a mortal army to fight for her in the Blood War) came to Elturel the next day, declaring she'd found the gate in the Fields of the Dead west of Elturel through which the devils were pouring, and that she would lead the cavalry through to defeat them where they mustered. She rallied and trained an army of thousands, among them Yael, Haruman, Olanthius, and Jander Sunstar.[14][15] One early battle was to relieve Idyllglen from attack by Yeenoghu, gnolls, and demons.[16] When she thought them ready, in the Year of the Bow, 1354 DR, Zariel, riding her golden mastodon, led them out of the city, with the cheers and good wishes of the Elturians behind them, and embarked on the Ride, a glorious mounted charge through the gate into Avernus. Courageously, they battled the infernal legions of Bel, but the horrors of the Hells became too much for some. Jander and others turned and ran, sealing the portal and trapping the majority behind them. Though they were glorified as the Hellriders, they shamefully kept the secret of their escape and abandonment of the others, telling instead that Zariel and her army had been defeated and they were grief-stricken.[14][15] But they would be the lucky ones. Those still fighting through Hell grew twisted; Haruman crucified deserters on Coward's Way. The army was ultimately wiped out. Finally captured, Zariel swore fealty to Asmodeus, and vengeance on those who'd fled her.[14] The rest in Avernus were ultimately entombed in the Crypt of the Hellriders, their souls bound by oath to Zariel and haunting the place forever after as ghosts.[15][note 3][note 4]

In any case, the Hellriders were well-established and famous across Faerûn through the late 1350s, 1360s, and early 1370s DR.

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Here's a good resource on the continuity around Descent into Avernus, thealexandrian is cool blog in general.

A Textual History of Elturel

It's also interesting how apparently the artificial sun is a mistake starting with 4th edition where Elturel was confused with Elversult

Thanks for transcribing those entries GM4Him. It helps not having to boot up a game, and dig through a virtual chest to find all these things again and again

Last edited by Sozz; 15/11/21 06:44 PM.
Sozz #800567 15/11/21 06:46 PM
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There's also a book in the Blighted Village talking about the return of Thultanthar, which happened in 1372.

But all that aside, we might be getting a little off track. We've established the date for Moonhaven fairly well.

Personally, I think the village would be a bit more overgrown, and I think it's unlikely all the books would have weathered the last 120 years quite so well, but it is what it is; I can't deny the date.

*

I'm curious why the Mind Flayers and Githyanki are involved.

What is the weapon? Is it sentient?

*

The symbols worn by the Absolute cultists look like the symbols of Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal.

Assuming there's a connection there, why would the Mind Flayers be working with them?

*

Who do you think the Absolute is?

I suspect the Absolute is the Unclaimed.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Around 1358 DR through 1367 DR, Hellriders numbered approximately 2000 women and men and around 1372 DR, their number was given as 200 mounted warriors.

This needs some behind-the-scenes context: When developing 3rd ed, WotC made the decision to make the populace numbers smaller than they had been in 2nd edition (1367 is when 2nd ed takes place, 1372 is the 3rd ed time). This meant that every organisation, city, country, well everything pretty much, seems to have had a mayor population drop between 1367 and 1372 if you don't take the retcon into account.


Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Dexai
Elturgard was formed in the 15th century. Elturel was older. Elturgard is formed when Elturel and it's Hellriders begin to take other towns and societies in the Heartlands under it's "guard", which starts

From your link:
Quote
In the late 15th century DR, it was the capital of the realm of Elturgard
Quote
By the late 1430s DR, through a variety of excuses, Elturel had laid claim to the lands of its neighbors, placing them within "Elturel's Guard" as they called it, making itself a petty regional power

That in turn only happened because of the fall of Scornubel as a major trading hub due to the Spellplague, which occured in 1385.

I see it as the Hellriders being around already, which they were. They're coming from Elturel, as mentioned.

So we have this notice written by someone essentially saying, "Hey, there are these guys riding around. They call themselves the Hellriders, and they're speading the message of a place called Elturgard, which I've never heard of, and I don't acknowledge."

To me, that means the idea of holy Elturgard was around, but wasn't officially acknowledged past the lips of a few militant riders. Some years later, the kingdom would become official on maps.

Basically, it's all plausible stuff from the year 1371. There's no need to dispute the date that Moonhaven fell.

The dated Dark Journal of Ilyn Toth is all that's needed to establish the year.

I think it's better to just say "it's an oversight" than to rationalise like that.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
I think it's better to just say "it's an oversight" than to rationalise like that.

I disagree. I think there's a silly tendency to assume things like *the first time anyone ever said the name Elturgard was the day Elturgard was officially founded via source book text. Any mention of the word Elturgard before that was an oversight.*

I have zero interest in that line of thinking. I imagine that Elturgard was a dream rolling off tongues long before it was first drawn on a map.

In my opinion, there are a couple of approaches to this sort of thing we see. One approach comes from a group I would call "students of source books." The other approach comes from a group I would call "students of human moves."

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If you come into possession of the artifact you do feel a presence inside of it. The dead Mind-Flayer Dror Ragzlin is trying to talk to, pictures a "circle of Mind-Flayers, absolute authority, absolute power" (or something like that) when asked what the Absolute is. What the Mind-Flayer angle is, is very interesting, my tentative guess is around reclaiming lost knowledge, (such as making Nautiloids) but who can say/

As for continuity around Elturel retconning the populations of the FR isn't an oversight, it's a retcon, or it could be anyway. Usually retcons come with an attempt to rationalize them but not always, especially when our sources are manuals full of blurbs.

Don't sleep on TheAlexandrian either if you haven't

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Sozz
...Non-Lolthsworn, Drow infiltrated Grymforge, unless I'm understanding it wrong, the lore around having red-eyes is new to me or forgotten anyway. We have a new group of actors maybe.

I need to go back through Grymforge carefully.

The way I understand it, Lolthsworn are the only drow with red eyes now.

Does it say somewhere in Grymforge that drow without red eyes infiltrated Grymforge?

It was their eyes that gave the infiltrators away, how I don't know, but the torturer says that's what he'll look for in the future to find spies. I was playing a Selandrine Drow, but I guess being a True-Soul kept me from being gibb'd.

Sozz #800575 15/11/21 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Thorm's daughter was probably Isobel. I also practically sure that Larian changed the roles of this character several times.

Who is Isobel?

She is not currently in EA (except for a few notes).
Her role changed at least twice, but it would require spoilers from datamining.

Sozz #800579 15/11/21 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sozz
If you come into possession of the artifact you do feel a presence inside of it. The dead Mind-Flayer Dror Ragzlin is trying to talk to, pictures a "circle of Mind-Flayers, absolute authority, absolute power" (or something like that) when asked what the Absolute is. What the Mind-Flayer angle is, is very interesting, my tentative guess is around reclaiming lost knowledge, (such as making Nautiloids) but who can say/

As for continuity around Elturel retconning the populations of the FR isn't an oversight, it's a retcon, or it could be anyway. Usually retcons come with an attempt to rationalize them but not always, especially when our sources are manuals full of blurbs.

Don't sleep on TheAlexandrian either if you haven't

The oversight wasn't about the pop numbers it was about a text mentioning Elturgard half a century before Elturel had begun to take other territories under it's guard (and become Eltursguard->Elturgard).


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OK. I'm 99.9% sure they're rewriting a bunch of stuff in regards to the backstory with Halsin, Roa, Ketheric, Selene, etc. Suddenly, the entire collection of 4 Volumes detailing the entire story of these four characters is missing. I can't find them at all.

One was always outside the main entrance to the grove inner sanctum. One was in Nettie's Chamber with the bluejay she heals. I can't remember where the first two were, and now I wish I'd saved all my old save files and went back to previous patches to play it just to get those books.

But if they're going to change the story anyway, then whatever, I suppose.

I was really hoping to read the one in regards to when Selene first comes to the grove to meet Roa. I'm pretty sure it gave some insights on who Ketheric was.

But here's one that provides some insight on Ketheric, though I think maybe someone may have already mentioned it. Just in case, here's what it says:

"In Ketheric, I see our failures made manifest. He did not fall - he was pushed. His grief was twisted by shadow, and still we did not act until his light was all but snuffed."

And here's another:

This is an ancient notebook, whose ink is faded and pages are starting to crumble. It's not easy, but some words can still be made out.

"Ketheric is finished, but it cost us the land. Darkness has fallen, corruption is everywhere.

... chased by shadows, picking us off, druids and Harpers alike.

... our wounded were safe, I returned, searching for survivors...

... lost, but I found his shade. I put it to rest and took his glaive...

... blade infused with shadow. I have locked it away, to serve as a reminder that even victory can taste bitter."

Then, in Grymforge, I found one that mentioned that Ketheric was a Paladin of Shar, and he was clearly considered to be her champion.



So, I think Ketheric's story is:
In 1358-ish, when the Time of Troubles began, Ketheric was a Harper or a Paladin of Selune, or both. He came with a group of settlers who built Moonhaven and the Temple of Selune in the Western Heartlands. (A document in the Underdark mentioned the temple and settlement being built pretty much at the same time.) I think Ketheric had a family, and Shadowheart was likely his daughter. I'm thinking Shadowheart was a Cleric of Selune initiate, possibly one of the Initiates mentioned in the documents found in the Underdark. I think trouble started when one of the initiates discovered the passages into the Underdark and thought it was his duty to spread Selune's light into the Underdark. They stirred up trouble with the drow, and it was a massacre. The drow slaughtered the initiates and the surviving Selunites had to seal the tunnel. I'm wondering if Shadowheart was lost during this encounter; captured by drow who may have been Sharrans. Ketheric probably thought she was dead.

Either way, I think this event sparked Shar's interest in Moonhaven, and Ketheric was devastated by the loss of his daughter. I think this was the loss that grieved him so much and pushed him to become a Sharran. And so, he began to help the Sharrans establish a stronghold in Moonrise Towers, and they took Grymforge from the gnomes there who once owned it. They began to build their army of Dark Justiciars, the greatest army of Sharrans assembled, using the forge to create better weapons of war for them. They were planning a full scale invasion of all the surrounding lands. Normally, they operate in secret, but this time they would sweep the lands with their dark horde because it was the Time of Troubles, and Shar was even walking the world. With Grymforge, they were even making all those suits of armor that are similar to what Shadowheart sports when you first meet her. All the while, Ketheric's playing Emperor Palpatine, pretending to be a great guy in Moonhaven and with the druids and such. During this time, he maybe even kidnaps children from the school. Another theory I had was that Isobel was his actual daughter who died in the Underdark incident and Shadowheart is an adopted daughter that he kidnapped from Moonhaven. The actual daughter died, and he took Shadowheart under his wing as sort of a replacement.

Either way, I think he met Shadowheart for the first time (or again) at Grymforge during this time, and she was one of the Dark Justiciars from Baldur's. In 1372, they began to settle near Moonhaven, and they began to harass the locals. Roa and Halsin chased them away, and they decided to return in force. After a series of raids, on 20 Nightal, the final raid occurred. Ilyn Toth was killed, the last survivors of Moonhaven were captured and taken away, the town was destroyed, and the Temple was probably raided and destroyed shortly after that. We can know that Dark Justiciars were the raiders because we can now even find a helmet in Blighted Village that is clearly a Dark Justiciar helmet that is broken. You can find an almost identical helmet in Grymforge, and it's labeled as being a Sharran helmet.

After Moonhaven's destruction, Halsin and Roa and the Harpers finally decide that it's time to put an end to Ketheric, which is why the above document indicates that "still we did not act until his light was all but snuffed." In other words, they didn't do anything until it was pretty much too late. There may have still been some good in him, like Anakin Skywalker, but regardless, they didn't do anything until "his light was all but snuffed." So, I think it was only after Moonhaven and the temple were destroyed that the druids and Harpers acted, banned together with the Hellriders (for there is another document indicating Hellriders aided in the assault on Moonrise), and they marched on Moonrise Towers. I think during the fighting at Moonrise, Ketheric was killed, and so was Roa, and the land became cursed by the Shadow Curse as a final retribution for the conflict. I also think that Shadowheart is the Unclaimed who fought as a champion of the Dark Justiciars, and she was killed; forgotten in Kelemvor's House of the Dead by Shar and never claimed... or perhaps Shar was just biding her time and planning to use her later...

So why does Shadowheart start the game with the Dark Justiciar armor and no memories? I think she was resurrected in her Dark Justiciar armor, possibly during the Second Sundering. She was wearing it loud and proud because they all were when fighting the druids and Harpers. She was killed in it and therefore resurrected in it. Whoever resurrected her gave her a single mission; get the Gith Weapon and bring it to Baldur's Gate. Since she doesn't remember anything, she wouldn't really question what year it was or anything. She would simply act upon her belief that she was a follower who lived in Baldur's Gate and who had her memories stripped to protect her mission. Therefore, I think SH was finally claimed by Shar, so to speak, or one of her followers, as a champion to try to steal the Gith artifact.

This would explain why Larian has her in obvious Sharran armor in the beginning of the game. Her people didn't equip her in it and send her on a secret stealth mission, as we might presume. She was raised from the dead in the armor and then given the mission. She just took with her what she had. Either that, or another thought I had was that this whole thing with the Githyanki Weapon has actually been going on since 1372, and she was already on the quest to get it when she died. And so, once resurrected, she simply continued her mission as if she'd never stopped, not realizing that more than a hundred years had passed since it was given to her. I think it's probably the first, more likely, if I'm even remotely close.

One final note. If my above theory is correct, then it would be understandable to some degree that people might not recognize Shadowheart's armor as Sharran. I still think a Religion roll should be made for it, but if it was armor only used during a single conflict some 120 years in the past, it might not be quite so obvious to the common person of Faerun. Granted, big black orbs are still a bit Shar-ish, and druids in the grove should recognize it because it's painted on their walls in the inner sanctum, but others like Astarion and especially Lae'zel and Wyll might not. Gale probably would recognize it, but as someone mentioned, he might just be keeping that to himself as his own little secret ammunition. The point, here, is that these could be explanations as to why she's wearing the armor, and why people don't outright think she's a Shar cleric. It was 120 years in the past, and especially with the addition of Grymforge, it does seem like all those suits of armor were special Grymforge Sharran armor. Once Ketheric was defeated, Sharrans didn't wear that armor anymore, because they're a secret society. So, over time, the memory of the armor was mostly lost.

But again... Religion roll or History roll. One of the two. Makes sense. And druids in the grove should be suspicious of it. Like, "Hey. Where'd you get that Sharran armor? It's on the murals in our inner sanctum."

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Thanks for confirming that those books have disappeared.

I have one quibble with this series of events, the Selunite outpost mentions seeing the petrified Drow statues. I had originally thought those were Drow scouts looking for a way around the stronghold's defenses, but now that we can actually speak to them we know these Drow were searching for the Grymforge....The Grymforge? I'm pretty sure the Grymforge was built under the auspices of Thorm, the gnome Silvou is said to have been 'converted' by Sybil. But still the Drow searching for it either means they wanted to take it from Thorm or their search was after the events of the Dark Justiciars, which means that the whole battle for that outpost happens after Thorm falls, or before he revealed himself as a Sharran.

Without a doubt it was the Dark Justiciars that razed Moonhaven, but there was one unsuccessful raid before they were successful, Thorm chews Sybil out for failing. Halsin also says that Thorm betrayed Moonhaven's trust, implying that he revealed himself in the act.

That's an interesting point about Shadowheart's armor, if it is indeed Justiciar armor, the emblem of which is slightly different than what we see identified as Shar's symbol, then that would make more sense. I'd still prefer if they changed it to look like it's thumbnail, with possibly a glamor concealing it to casual inspection.

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Yeah, I was also confused on the timing of the Underdark events.

Not sure if they've changed dialogue, etc. But Halsin used to, at least, say that Ketheric built the Grymforge stronghold in preparation for using it as his main base of operations because it was accessible to both Moonrise Towers and the Temple. However, Halsin and company defeated him at Grymforge before he could properly launch an assault from there.

So, again, things don't add up.

I had a post about this stuff before, mentioning the inconsistencies of the story and how confusing it was. That's when I first brought up the Halsin-Aradin they've been gone over a month and a half but the temple's 5 minutes away thing. Stuff like that makes no sense and lends to the theory that Larian staff are not all on the same page. We need continuity and clarity.

I love a good mystery, but a good mystery REQUIRES continuity. Throw off even 1 detail, and the whole mystery is blown.

Sozz #800669 16/11/21 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Yeah, I was also confused on the timing of the Underdark events.

Not sure if they've changed dialogue, etc. But Halsin used to, at least, say that Ketheric built the Grymforge stronghold in preparation for using it as his main base of operations because it was accessible to both Moonrise Towers and the Temple. However, Halsin and company defeated him at Grymforge before he could properly launch an assault from there.

So, again, things don't add up.

I had a post about this stuff before, mentioning the inconsistencies of the story and how confusing it was. That's when I first brought up the Halsin-Aradin they've been gone over a month and a half but the temple's 5 minutes away thing. Stuff like that makes no sense and lends to the theory that Larian staff are not all on the same page. We need continuity and clarity.

I love a good mystery, but a good mystery REQUIRES continuity. Throw off even 1 detail, and the whole mystery is blown.

It seems to me that some of the problems are EA's fault.
Considering that some things have changed quite drastically (if you haven't been following datamining you have to take my word for it), it is likely that at the beginning of EA they weren't quite sure about certain things. According to Swen, the project itself got quite big, which probably also forced some changes.
I wouldn't expect all the story holes to be removed, but I suspect that some of the story will be sorted out in the full version.
At the moment, it's hard to say what is up-to-date and what is not.

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The drow statues are a great example of change. Originally, they were led by a female drow named Commander Maz'ri, but could only be interacted with in a hostile manner.

This has obviously been changed to give the player some information about Grymforge, and to provide a piece of a staff that's supposedly legendary. (The only thing legendary about that staff is how weak it is!)

So. There are going to be necessary holes going forward, at least until full release, and hopefully not thereafter.

*

It seems to me that the best we can do is try to figure out where the best story beats are. That's where the writers will naturally end up.

*

One note about Grymforge, it wasn't created by Ketheric. It existed before the Sharrans came. They added to what was already there and took it over as their own.

We don't know who predated the Sharrans.

But we do have reason to believe the Sharrans were attacked by some sort of hellish force. I suspect this attack was somehow in line with the origin of the Absolute.

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A deed you find in Grymforge indicates that it was owned by the Iron-something-er-other Gnome clan. Then Ketheric and his Dark Justiciars came and took over.

But regardless, the story is all over the place. I'm starting to regret EA because it's confusing as heck. You start to think you know the story and then they change it and throw huge kinks into everything.

I wish they'd at least locked the story down tight prior to EA. I can't help you with the story because I don't know all the finer details, so at the very least you should have had the story locked down tight prior to releasing to the general population.

But what do I know? Maybe they did but certain restrictions in development threw everything out the window and they had to go back to the drawing board, or maybe they thought they had it all worked out but some minor detail threw everything out the window. That can happen. A single, small detail blows an entire story if you aren't careful. The next thing you know, you're scrambling to try to figure out how the flip you're going to make everything work because you didn't think that one thing through.

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I wouldn't put too much stock into travel times 'in-game', looking at things like the map that comes up upon leaving the EA area, I think it's clear that the area we have access to is supposed to cover a large swath of land, not to mention how long it takes to travel to the Underdark, it even has an Cutscene. This topic has come up a few times already without a satisfying resolution, but I think the distances between the temple, village and grove could be large enough to make travelling times ambiguous. A lot of that ambiguity is the result of having no clock, and being in control of when we have to camp, but there it is.

According to the Grymforge: A History, Ketheric's pact with Silouv, is to rebuild the city(?) Grymforge, but the Grymforge most people refer to is the adamantine forge, the one Ketheric gets Silouv to build for him, because that one book is the only place I can think that references another Grymforge I don't think most people are even aware of it.

I think the Ironhand deed you find, is something giving them rights to whatever they find in the Underdark, the gnomes brought it with them, I don't think it was there begin with.

Considering there's only one log referencing the Drow statues among the outpost, one that predates the current quest, it's entirely possible that its removal is just an oversight.

edit. On the point of camping, there's even some evidence that the times we choose to camp for the night aren't the only times we camp during our travels, based on how people talk about the journey.

Last edited by Sozz; 16/11/21 04:21 PM.
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