Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General No Gen, Pre Gen, Origen

I mean the game still has certain races getting bonuses and reductions to certain stats. I would argue that race-wide negative traits feels way more gamey than simply having characters be deficient in stats because of how they were built as a character. I think all races need to have personality is to be well-written.

Regarding the origins, yes having them become more of a team as time goes on is what should happen. But I worry there's not enough interaction between the companions for that to come across believably. Maybe that's changed in patch 6, but right now they talk to each other so little compared to other games, it makes it hard to feel like there are cohesive group dynamics to build off of and develop.

Party banter is kinda limited in many games, BG 1 and 2 did not have a exceptional amount of it either to be honest. Pathfinder seems to have some one-twos around the campfire but I hardly consider them really party banter as after said 2 sentences they do not continue on conversing lol. It seems to be more of a question, response: ok I am done! Would be nice if BG3 took the partybanter system from both the originals and pathfinder, so as you walk along, and around the campfire as well. I know it would mean a ton of extra voicelines to be done though.. as I don't see them doing none voiced work for BG3.

I think Wrath of the Righteous took party interaction to the next level frankly. The amount of times they interact and interject has blown my mind, it's delightful. Thus far there's basically none of that in BG3. A lot of companions barely even reference each other. Like, how do Wyll and Gale feel about each other? Gale and Asterion? Asterion and Shadowheart? I think if that continues to remain true and isn't just a consequence of early access, that it's going to really hamper the game.

Astarion has a campfire scene where he speculates what the other companions’ blood tastes like.

There is some banter between companions outside of camp. Wyll has a funny one where he suggests that Gale should take a blade-of-frontiers type name.

The more the better, though! I hope they add more with future updates.

Yeah, I feel like there's plenty of banter in BG3. Talk around the campfire and lotta talk out on the road among the companions.

How legit would it be if they actually animated in Sign though? I mean for real! If they did a character with some faerun style ASL that would be so impressive. Back slaps and first bumps and military scouting type silent language is one thing and the game could start there in a general sort of way. But it should be treated like other languages as a skill that can be deployed for story purposes. The game has some fun with languages right now, with the Gith stuff, and with Gale's demonic philology digressions. I wish Druids and Dwarves had more secret language script or ogham etc. But doing sign would be pretty cool. I think it was positively received in Dune where they did up the hybrid futuristic version and subtitle. Something high fantasy like that might work, or a deaf/mute character like the gal in Dark to showcase. I mean doesn't have to be perfectly executed to still carry, since it'd be so novel
Haven't really seen it before. It'd be legit as a scout to deploy, even if it was just for flavor and flair. It could also be used in speak with animals, since that is common. They could have it with Scratch. Dogs know how to follow our eyes and simple signs, just like voice commands so that might be cool. Or speak with the dead just to give it more gravity. That's like a moonshot, but it could pay off with all characters, because whatever gestural stuff would be required to carry it would translate elsewhere down the line. Like for use in arcane or divine magic too, or combat hands with the monks and other dexterous types. I'll be curious to see what they do there, hopefully they're hiring some martial artist and motion cap'n it. But something on a more general level of animation, if it's good enough to sign then that would definitely up the game.

It would be wonderful to have that kind of representation somewhere (and hopefully avoid the trope of making that feature the character's entire definition...), but, considering how hard a time they're having getting Astarion to hold his dagger properly in his intro cut-scene, I'm not, honestly, holding my breath...

The sad/amusing part is that even in films and other media where they have signing characters represented, they usually default to American sign (ASL), so I still can't understand the majority of it... Shape of Water was a very meaningful film to me, for what it was, but even so I didn't go into it expecting to see Auslan, instead of ASL... that would have been amazing, but I wasn't expecting it. Though from what I understand, they used contemporary 60's ASL, so modern ASL speakers were also a little bit out of depth as well... it was an interesting time to see lots of people discovering that there are many different sign languages, even amongst different English-speaking countries, each of which are not mutually intelligible with the others (well, to clarify; different groups are not mutually intelligible with other groups - Australian, British and New Zealand signers can generally read each other passably well, and I'm pretty sure American and Canadian sign are more or less mutually intelligible to each other too... but the two groups are not, between each other, just as an example... and that's just english speakers ^.^)

Yeah I mean leave it to us in North America to always throw an English language curve ball hehe. Just having something in translation w/ subtitle there would still be worthwhile though. Representation is a plus sure, but mainly I just think it would look cool and have nice knock on effects for all the animations down the line. It'd be so novel that I think it'd get a lot of plaudits and a pass even if butting up against the limits of the technology. I think implementing some kind of Sign (take whatever regional variant/some fantasy version thereof) would be comparable to the amount of work involved in say, recording separate audio tracks in different languages for the spoken dialog, but it would be a bit more versatile since it could be translated in script subtitle to whatever the native tongue. Like they could do it in ASL or Auslan or BSL or French, or German like the girl in Dark, and I'd never know, cause I'm not fluent, but it would still carry the same kind of dramatic appeal and novelty. They could find a way to do it tactfully. Sure we'd probably still some version of the silent monk or mummers trope or a slate around the neck, but I think they could do it up better if they just put some heart into it. For the outside audience it would probably still carry better with a pair of characters, so you could have one do the translation into common. In cinema its well established by now as a ready in. So for example, in Dark you have the older sister translating for the younger sister (actually translated dialog though, so not just doing the Han and Chewie or Luke and R2 repetition schtick there). It sets up some nice shots and framing. Like not just the constant shot-counter-shot and over the shoulder dialog, but we get more wide angle 2 characters in scene shots, which tend to be more interesting and slightly less formulaic. Once established more gestural shots would then carry into regular spoken dialog as it hybridizes across the board. I think it could work similar to Githyanki or like Quenya in LotR films, where it becomes a kind of a universal. Or like in the same way that it doesn't matter if I'm a native English speaker, or Dutch or French speaker, we can all appreciate the sound and vibe of Klingon. It's always in translation cause nobody is truly fluent and its invented. But they could go one better than that with sign, cause they have more base material to work from and it's less tapped. They could just all go Martha's Vineyard or Old French there, and it'd still probably work, like some form of archaic version or a Shakespearean redux vernacular of the sort we often see in use in FR.

For me though the moonshot element is that if they could pull off some basic version of sign language that works believably and isn't all strained, then it becomes easier to imagine Astarion using his dagger, or sleight of hand that actually looks it, monks doing the hand dance or warlocks with hex fingers, increases the likelihood of some rando Tief or Gale throwing up a a well timed shaka like 'most excellent' lol. I could picture where it might go. I'd anticipate some counters like, it'd cost too much and take too long, though I don't kick around on boards like these to muse on Larians budget or resource management zots. Like whatever, they shouldn't do it because it's easy but because it's hard. The moonshot, cause that's what get's it to the next level. I think Khalid was the first RPG character I can recall with a stammer, but it was played for laughs and passe like 1999 vs The King's Speech, but when there's nothing any representation at all gets a plaudit right? So they could try for it and have some safety net there or some slack just for attempting and having the ambition, as it's something that hasn't been done yet. The more cinematic the game gets the more gestural animation seems like forward progress. Right now the games are still at the level of dubs in cartoon. I always prefer watching manga in Japanese with English Subtitle, or German TV in Deutsche with English Subtitle (even though they are masters of the dub) you just get something in the audio that could never be translated anyway which is the sound. They could do the same with gesture I think, since the game is still heavy on transcription and reading, it would be cool to see that acclimated into the mix. Especially if they pass it off smooth, like not front and center but just having a companion character that worked that way. I'd love to see them aim high and do a D&D game that had like its own language team, the same way they have teams for other stuff, just to deep dive. It was always one of the more interesting features of the intelligence attribute, to choose what languages or secret tongues you got to speak, to have that informed by fantasy race or background with additional options besides common there. Lot of places they could go with it.

Just chiming in. Watched a show called “Only Murders in the Building”, recently. There was an entire episode done from a deaf guys POV. It was completely silent with subtitles when he read lips or signed with someone. It was pretty great.

Doing something like that, just for the step forward in capability that mastering it would represent would be great, honestly, but it is a big jump that some studio would really have to dedicate themselves to. Fine hand animation work is still a big difficulty in big budget games, and there are ones currently handling it better than BG3, but if a game were to come out with something like that, that broke ground for advanced, intricate and complex hand animations that looked good, you're right - the knock on effect from someone managing that would be excellent for games everywhere.

In terms of D&D, and perhaps relevant here, the Drow use hand sign as a form of secret language - and pretty much all drow operatives you find anywhere who are part of drow military or espionage societal structure know it, and can speak it with others. It's not just a series of singular phrases or signals, but an actual full language, which is pretty neat. that's something we could even potentially come across in the future of the game.

Another interesting example is Nat, from Waterdeep Dragon Heist - Nat is an interesting case because she highlights a very real-world element of being someone who speaks with their hands; her sign language is self-taught and while being a fully composed language, it's one that is only shared by a very small circle of individuals who learned an developed it along with her. This reflects an often missed element of reality: you might communicate in a hand language, but when you go out, you know that 9 of 10, more, 49 of 50 even, people will not be able to understand you, even though you all share an language (and as an aside - this awareness leads to a practical pragmatism - if you speak with your hands, you generally carry a notepad and pen on your person wherever you go, because simply writing something down is often the quickest way to communicate). Aside from special services and community groups, your actual circle of people who CAN understand you is likely to be small and personal - people close in your life who have made the effort to learn, likely expressly for your sake, and that means a lot. Because it's personal, you might have a full formal understanding and use of a formal sing language (like Auslan), but your reality and day to day communications with this smaller circle of close people ends up developing a lot of short-hand and personal quirks that you have to filter out again when talking formally to someone you don't know, but who knows your hand sign. So, in Dragon Heist, Nat's hand sign is personal - and no amount of intelligent learned scholaring is going to let you understand it - but clever and wise people may be able to pick it up with on-going exposure to it.

All that said, this is kinda off topic, I think, so we probably shouldn't derail too far ^.^

Derailing or not. Reading that, made me realize how much something like that would mean for you Niara, and for others as well. As you said, the challenge is great, and the effort would go unnoticed by the majority. But I really hope the mods read what you wrote, bring that feedback forwards to the devs and that in the end will lead to....something, atleast.

It's not so off-topic, the question of how customizable a character could theoretically be includes such things. You have to consider if a game were to actually give you the option to play a character deaf, mute or even blind(!) it would be a pretty interesting dimension added to the game. I've seen it a few times but mostly in text-only games.

Bringing it back to our trinity of characters, it certainly becomes more feasible with an origin character, but don't take that as me trying to stymie the discussion.

As a hearing impaired person myself I am completely on @Niara's side. In my case, though, because I still have some hearing and because my hearing loss began in my early 40s and is not something I was born with, sign language doesn't help me as I never learned it. What does help me is having really good closed captioning. Most games nowadays have it, but many small indie games don't (or at least don't have it for everything in the game such as for movies or cutscenes), and those games are precisely the ones I tend to like playing. It would also be great if services like Twitch and Roll20 found a way to add in CC.

Origins characters to play was fine, 10 years ago...
I think that all that <origins> work should of gone into YOUR customizable character and story. The game adapts to whatever race/class you choose/create and enables you to make an in depth background story from which the main story symbioses with. This includes an AI Voice, and dynamic hand-drawn portrait for your character.
Now that would of been groundbreaking and a natural fit for a BG game.
Instead we get old ideas, pretty visuals and cinematics.
As long as the game is fun, thats alright I guess...still a shame.

I've heard some of the Quest with Geralt's A.L. voice, and it isn't exactly flawless, so maybe let that incubate for a few years more.

As for making a game that truly adapts to your race/gender/class etc. of course I'm on board. I wish more game companies felt comfortable enough to go through the kind of time and effort it would take to do that, even if it meant cutting back on certain things, such as having every line be voiced or every pet race available. I think the only RPGs that pull in that kind of development time are MMOs and they have their story priorities seriously skewed.