Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Lenore's Kill Me Stanza

Is there an actual comment made about size? I think I might have to go back and play this scene again.

Yes. If you play a tiefling, the narrator makes a point to say you are just a bit too tall. The hug is meant for someone slightly shorter.

I don't think it said this with my Drow sorcerer.

Also, something to consider: The Second Sundering, also known as the Sundering of Toril and Abeir, was a great catastrophic event in the history of the worlds of Abeir and Toril, that took place during the decade of the 1480s DR.

1482 DR
Main article: 1482 DR
Abdel Adrian of Baldur's Gate, son of Bhaal, was attacked by his last remaining sibling, and as one slew the other, the Lord of Murder returned to life, reclaiming the portfolio of murder from Cyric.

Could Lenore be connected? I think yes.

Ok. Nevermind. Pulled up the dialogue log. It does say my Drow was too tall.

Now I'm wondering if Lenore is of a race not yet in the game. Hmmm.

That's just far too much of a stretch to jump to from what we see in-game.

So basicaly its just wild guess?

It's a guess, yes, but there's nothing wild about it. Have you not recognized patterns in stories throughout your life?

I'll tell you what, if my guess turns out to be right and Lenore's research is important to the overall plot of the game, then we should make a point of coming back to this thread to discuss how we could have known.

So, maybe Lenore is a Triton, Kenku or dwarf.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7yNFJinKSZxwJrzM7

Ok, I'd like to rescind my previous cynicism and propose an actual hypothesis for the existence of the kill phrase.

I don't buy that Lenore is suicidal, because people with suicidal ideations don't make long term plans or set long term goals. She might have felt lonely and depressed but she still kept on going with her research. She even planned a trip to Baldur's Gate and likely went through with it.

My hypothesis is based on two facts. 1) Lenore built a way for her automaton to kill her. 2) She had the exact ingredients in her lab to brew Omeluum's potion.

Hence my guess: Lenore was infected by a tadpole, but found a way to keep it in stasis, effectively stopping the ceremorphosis. However, she knew things could go wrong and decided to install a failsafe into Bernard. Should she start feeling the symptoms, she would say the phrase and have the automaton stop her heart with a single, painless blast of electricity.

After all, that's the exact strategy Nettie suggests with the Wyvern poison.

Hmm.

So ideation is only the first stage. Lenore is well past that, and everything about her does scream warning signs. (The more specific the plan, the greater the danger.)

That said, I really like this theory.

In fact, this is probably the strongest theory I've heard to date.

Bravo! I also do like this theory. I will say that sometimes it amazes me how much detail they put into this game in certain aspects. It is clear that Lenore never intended on leaving permanently. She was just planning on going on a long trip that would be several months in the making. She said she planned to be back by the end of the year. Her research was extremely important to her. It was the most important thing to her. She was willing to sacrifice just about everything to see it through. So I really don't think she would have committed suicide at least until her research was done.

So it is likely that Lenore died in Baldur's Gate and that's why she never returned. Whatever she had completed as far as her research was most likely stolen, meaning her ring that she mentions. So if she was the first with a tadpole in her head, that would make a lot of sense and tie it all together.

One thing that still puzzles me is the damage done to her Tower. The top two floors are extensively damaged as if something massive tried to break into the tower. At first I thought that maybe her Tower was just not completed, but then I noticed during my last playthrough that that was not the case. It was almost as if a giant airship crashed into the top of it, damaging the top two floors. If someone or something try to invade her Tower from the top down that would explain why the towers only guardians were on the top level. They were up there to repel Invaders. But if this is the case, where are all the bodies of those that might have invaded? Did Bernard and the animated armors dump the bodies off the top into the lake?

Either way, I really like your theory. That really makes sense as to why she would create a kill switch phrase. Being so intelligent, if something went wrong she would want her guardians to kill her. She seemed like that type of person.

Okay. So now the height thing is bugging me. If she was a shorter person, would she have created a seven to seven and a half foot tall robot and program it to give her a hug? I can see her creating it as a guardian, But receiving a hug from such a tall machine would never be comfortable I would think. In the game, regardless of what race you choose, it looks painful. I can't imagine if you were shorter than most of the races in the game, that it would be comfortable at all, ever.

So shouldn't Bernard be shorter if Lenore is shorter?

You say facts ... but those are just presumptions both ...

Lenore build a "kill" phrase to her automatron ... that is all fact we know.
To say that she implemented it to "kill her" is just another theory.

And i feel the urge to mention that nothing in game that i have seen supports this theory. :-/

There is many other mushrooms in her tower ... and not just mushrooms, but also flowers, crystals, sussur tree and lots and lots alchemical equipent ... Lenore was quite obviously experimenting with those things ... but we dont even know if she was brewing Omeluum's potion ... nor if she even knew about the posibility.

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As far as i know, her notes from the tower just mentioned some really important research ... we have no idea what was that about.
If i had to gues, it would be about Sussur flowers, since they (as it seems) dont just "drain" magic from their surroundings, but also keep it (like a batery) ... based on the fact that once we insert the flower to that machine, whole tower starts working ... and there was "empty" sussur flowers laying all over the place ...
Maybe her research had nothing to do with tadpole or Mind Flayers ... maybe she was simply researching possibilities of sussur flower uses.
I dare to say such research would still have incredible value for cleric of Mystra.

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About her death ...
I know we dont know what race Lenore was ... only that she was quite obviously shorter than anything we can curently play.
(I never managed to get there as Halfling ... since i really dont like that race please tell me what it told you if you did)
I would just like to point out that IF Lenore was Gnome ... there is "halfeaten" gnome corpse around Hooked Horror location ... not so far from the grave Lenore was wisiting ...
I would just like to point out that it is entirely possible that she either never made it to Baldur's Gate, or even worse, has ben killed after she returned.

If I were a gnome, i would make a tall robot too, so he could fetch me things from the top shelf.

One thing does, as mentioned by the OP: Bernard will try to kill the player upon hearing the kill phrase even if he thinks the player is Lenore. If she designed the phrase as a defense mechanism, perhaps to trap prying intruders, that seems like quite an oversight. In fact, given that she lived alone, she's the only who would've known of the phrase. That makes her the likeliest person to die from it.


No, we don't. Be we do know she studied anti-magic fields, we know what the intended effects of Omeluum's potion are, and we know she had the ingredients to make it. Keep in mind those are dangerous ingredients to have around for no reason. If she wasn't using them, she would have probably gotten rid of them. Even if she didn't brew Omeluum's exact formula, it's plausible that a potion with those ingredients could have a similar effect.

I'll concede that my hypothesis fills in some of the gaps with suppositions. But there can be no doubt as to the kill phrase's intent nor to the presence of cultivated Tongue of Madness and Timmask Spores in the tower.

The defense rests.

Just for reference:

1. Treatise on the Antimagic Properties of Sussur Tree Flowers - A research paper on Sussur Tree flowers. Only the first paragraph is finished.



2. Threadbare Book



3. Dusty Book



4. Torn Out Paper



5. Handwritten Letter



6. The Roads to Darkness -- This play tells the epic tragedy of three friends who kill each other in their quest for power.



7. To the Grey -- A duergar mining chant is inscribed here on plain paper with thick, blocky script.



8. Patched Parchment -- A small poem about love and loss is inscribed on this torn paper.



9. Excavation of the Enclave of Nhalloth -- A carefully kept journal, filled with concise prose and technical diagrams of a lost, once-submerged city.



10. De Hurst's Diary -- The otherwise plain book has the words 'L. De Hurst' and 'Diary' written on the front in faded silver ink.

Thank you very much for your efforts, JandK! This helps a lot, so we don't have to reload and search all the books and notes in the arcane tower to gather the information.

First, I thought Lenore's story might be unrelated to the main events, but now I'm not so sure.

"Excavation of the Enclave of Nhalloth " is especially interesting to me - we have again a connection to Netherese magic. She mentions some Shadovar she met, and if I remember correctly, most Shadovar were worshippers of Shar. I wonder what Lenore found in the ruins - and who was watching her...

Edit: And I have reconsidered my thoughts about the kill phrase being intended for suicide. Maybe it was more of a last resort when being attacked.

Funny how this was originally meant as feedback. "Larian, nix the kill phrase. It makes no sense."

Now, it's more of a general discussion. Was the kill phrase actually intensional? Is Lenore a main part of the story? After all, you don't have to visit the tower. Nevertheless, it's open world. If you miss key story elements, that's on you.

That is statement once again based on theory ... wich was missinterpreted as fact ...

Bernard is not Warforged, only Automatron ... therefore Bernard is not self-aware, or in other words he do not think at all ... he simply recedived a comand phrase and reacts acordingly to his programming.

What is oversight about it? All she need to do is never say this particular phrase out loud in his presence ... we dont know Lenore, we dont even know if she was talking to Automatron except when she was reciting those phrases.

In my opinion its pretty clever, to code comands in phrases from an Theather play ... those are not phrases you usualy say during work.
The point here is she could forget the phrases ... so she write them down (just as when Wizard write his spells to spellbook) ... but anyone else could find her notes and then Bernard would be useless as guardian once again ... so she smugled there single trap comand ... if someone get to the tower, he would like to try every comand he find, just in order to find out what else they would do, or what secret they could potentialy reveal ...
I should know, that is exactly how i get to reciting that sentence.

I believe that is not corect, as we have seen the tower was empty ... yet her notes was still there ...
Anyone could find them there ...
I dunno why ...
Maybe she was affraid that she will lost them, wich would mean that her tower (Bernard seem to have acess to whole tower, since he is using that transportation mechanism when you shove him down) would be no longer habitable for her ...
Maybe she left it there for purpose to "test" what will happen, maybe she was hoping that someone will get there and wanted to find out if her trap will work ...
Maybe she simply believed that her security is well enough to left the tower ...
Maybe she simply forget them there ...
And maybe something entirely different. (Including that option that nobody from Larian gived it this much thoughts)

Not at all ... that is proably the reason those phrases are coded into quotes from some play ...
So she dont say them accidentaly and make her own creation to kill her.

On the contrary, since she is the only person who actualy KNOWS what phrase she cannot speak out loud, she is the only person who have litteraly nothing to say.

I mean we are here limited by gamedesign that remember the phrases for us ...
But i believe this is exactly the same situation as Gale had with that Magma(?)Mephit ... you need to say his name and you need to say it corectly ... maybe if someone would say the phrase incorectly, the robot would also start killing rampage.

Come on, one and half floor in basement is taken by some machine that is able to squeeze some energy OUT of Sussur flower, and power up whole tower with it ...
Please dont tell me you are willing to ignore this and keep claiming that she only studied Anti-magic fields for their anti-magicioning effects. :-/

Yes, WE do ... but that does not mean she did too.

Yes, she did ... among many other things ... including other mushrooms, flowers, crystals etc ...
All parts of her research, quite possibly ... the only thing that connects them all is the fact that they are all Underdark resources ... why are you ignoring them?

I never said its for "no reason" ... i just believe there are other reasons than just to brew exactly that potion Omeluum told us about.

Even if nothing else, she could aswell ben just researching possible uses of those mushrooms.
Or she was curious about how (and if) their effects are affected by sussur anti-magic field.

Why? Except for then your theory would fall appart?
I mean ... there is lot researchers in the real world, that are holding "potentialy dangerous" materials for "future research" ... the point is, if you know that thing is dangerous and handle it acordingly ... then its no longer so dangerous, at least not in your eyes ... and at least for some time.

I mean come on havent you seen any american action movie with escaped virus?

Its certainly posible, yes.
But there is equaly high possibility that she was brewing someting else entirely.

I mean if you find that someone is growing a poppy ... you could acuse him for using it to create opium ... while he was only using it to brew sleeping drops.

Im trying to say that the possibilities are endless, especialy in alchemy ...
You brew somethig ... add some other something, or you dilute it with something, or you destile it instead of brewing it, or you dry some ingredient up instead of squeeze just the juice out of it ... AND VOILA sudently you have something entirely different.

Now when we talk about those mushrooms ...
I would also like to point out possibility that she created that "killme" comand after experimenting with Tongue of Madness ... and had a little accident.

Same here.

I made a halfling and went back to the Arcane Tower to check the height.

The halfling was too short.

So then I used disguise self and went through every option. Basically, Lenore seems to be taller than a dwarf or halfling but shorter than every other choice I had available: elf, drow, half-elf, human, githyanki, tiefling.

I thought, maybe Lenore is usually sitting when she gets a hug, so I tried sitting on the stool. Can't talk while sitting on the stool, though. I automatically get up when I engage in dialogue.

So I tried climbing on a crate as a halfling. Game didn't recognize my artificial change in height, still said the interaction was meant for someone taller.

I don't know. I'm at a loss.

Maybe Lenore is of a unique race that's somewhere in between in height. Maybe Lenore is as tall as a halfling, but floats around a few inches off the ground?

Maybe the cut scene needs work and they decided the size difference made for a good excuse for it not looking right?

Back to Triton or Kenku theory. They're both between dwarf and elf/human. Probably triton, for kenku tend to be selfish and greedy, and Lenore doesn't seem like either. Triton's tend to have a good heart. Also, her tower is by water, so she could have chosen the spot on purpose to be closer to Ebonlake.

There is also the possibility that she was just a short human. I'm 138cm tall, and more or less human ^.^