Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Underdark Mysteries

@GM4Him Some really good points raised when it comes to narrative context of Larian's map design. I am not sure much can be done about it aside from "suspension of disbelieve".

Larian wants "open worldish" (single map? Open map?) design for gameplay reasons, but doesn't support it narratively. Generally open locations like that tend to be supported narratively (prison in Gothic1, Deus Ex/Thief where the character doesn't have a reason to venture outside given area). I think it is just another way in which Larian's RPG tend to lack cohesion.

This particular thing didn't bother me that much thus far, but perhaps it's one of those things because of which I see BG3 as artificial game space, rather then world I am exploring.

Yeah, everything feels bizarrely compressed, akin to the Underdark map from BGII where you had Silver Dragon lairing on the doorstep of Ust Natha etc. Broken record here, but the Goblin camp, Blighted Village, Druid Grove, and Waukeen's Rest would all probably have been on different maps if it was designed like BG I (or even II, to a lesser degree, since quests usually had you going to a different map across Amn or at least a different district in Athkatla.

I have been playing the new Pathfinder game recently, and so far I really appreciate the feeling of verisimilitude I get from the passage of time and distance while adventuring. Destinations are hours or more apart-they aren't all on the same map. You can even be intercepted by enemies while traveling-It's a little touch, but seeing it in that game made me really appreciate the 'You have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself' from BG.

I would say that such attacks age quite quickly.
I don't know if the new pathfinder should be a role model in this matter.
The problem is that they went the other way there and most of the locations are the size of bg1 or even smaller.
More than 20 years have passed since bg1.

Dang! They've flipping jacked up the entire timeline.

1. Halsin says Ketheric built a stronghold between Moonrise Towers and the Underdark leading to the Temple of Selune, but he never got to launch an attack from there because he was defeated at Moonrise Towers.
2. Documents in Selunite Outpost stated that Jarrus and Morna found the Temple of Selune, "a new temple with settlers to guide." Meaning, Moonhaven and the Temple of Selune were founded at the same time. Since Moonhaven was full of Selunite worshippers, it makes sense that they were built at the same time especially since this document says so.
3. Ketheric betrayed the people of Moonhaven and killed them, his troops butchering them for sport. Halsin and Roa fought back against him and pushed him back to Moonrise Towers where he was killed. They found his wight in the Cursed Land and put him to rest.
4. Drow attacked Jarrus and Morna and killed them all. The only way to save the temple was to seal the entrance so no one could get through.
5. Dhourn, Xargrim, and Filro were drow living in the Underdark near the Selunite Outpost. They were there searching for Grymforge to claim it for Menzoberranzan. Xargrim got into a fight with Dhourn and summoned the spectator that Mynthe, initiate serving Morna and Jarrus, spotted. Mynthe was also the one to spot statues of drow near the spectator. So we know that Dhourn was turned to stone prior to the drow attack on the Selunite Outpost and the temple being sealed off. However, Dhourn and his two companion drow were competing to find the "Great Forge" and had documents about the forge detailing its foundation as if by that point it had already been defeated and Ketheric was long dead. In other words, according to this, the Temple of Selune was just founded and Moonhaven as well AFTER Ketheric was defeated and Grymforge was shut down.
6. There are signs in Grymforge that Infernal beings were also partially responsible for the defeat of the Sharrans.


Again, none of this is making sense. Ugh! So frustrating. Confusing as ALL get out.

And don't forget in Grymforge: A History it says that there was an older Grymforge, that Silouv's pact with Ketheric is trying to rebuild. So it's possible there was a forge at the temple already but Silouv rebuilt it. I'm not sure what you're referencing with the wight, is that a Halsin convo? Also Moonrise is a Selunite cathedral, so some references to a Selunite Temple might be confused.

The days of a completely interlocking tapestry of maps from Nashkel to Baldur's Gate are behind us it seems. I think the EA map is supposed to be like if most of the BG wilderness maps were put together into a larger map, but because the map doesn't feel that large, and because we're never forced to reckon with travel times, it ends up feeling smaller.


Like if everything south of Beregost was one mega map

Okay. I think I figured it out. I think the timeline goes something like this:

1358 - 1371, Sharrans and the gnome Yali built the great forge. Like you said, it was just a forge. It was not a strong hold. Yali made Grym the guardian, his favorite creation. However, it is clear that he guided the building of the forge, it's initial creation. The text says so.

Shar's influence during this time began to spread across the western heartlands. Silvanus Then gifted the Emerald Grove to Roa and Halsin and other druids of their circle. This was the first mural in the Grove. They were to help root out the darkness in the area.

All this drew Selune's attention also. So she sent her own followers to the area. They established the temple and moonhaven. Ketheric was probably their leader and champion, a paladin of Selune. He was probably a moon elf and had a moon blade, since there were at some point references that alluded to this. He was likely a resident of moonhaven and may have taken a human wife as well. There is some data mining that indicates that he had a daughter. Could this be Shadow heart?

Anyway, in 1371, dark Justiciars attacked the town. This was after Roa had caused the dark Justiciars some issues. I'm thinking that during this first raid, tragedy happened to Ketheric. Either his wife or daughter was killed or they were captured or both. Some documents that were removed from the game indicated that Halsin killed his daughter. Whatever the case, documents in the game support that he was good but then because of his grief he turned evil. He became the leader of the dark Justiciars.

So I think after that first raid, he left Moon Haven and went to Moonrise towers. He then learned about the forge and went there and led the building of the fortifications and the Temple. He quickly became their leader, and he planned on using the forge location as a tactical staging ground to attack from both the underdark and the surface.

A little less than a month later, he leads the final attacks on moon Haven. The final raid is the one that finally destroys the village and kills The necromancer. During this month Selene and other Harper's join The druids which is the fulfillment of the the mural about the Concord being made.

In reply to moonhaven's destruction, The druids and Harper's and clerics from the temple march on moonrise towers and defeat Ketheric. Roa kills him but also loses his life before escaping. His glaive is corrupted by shadow, but Halsin later retrieves it and stores it in the vault in the Grove.

During the assault on moonrise towers, The druids and clerics and Harper's learn about the forge, but with the death of the dark Justiciars, no one really knows where it is.

Word spreads about the forge. It reaches menzoberranzan. They send three mages to find it. Dhourn, Xargrim, and Filro. At the same time, High initiate Jarrus leads his fellow clerics into the underdark on a crusade to bring light to the darkness. My guess is, since he was one of the founding clerics, and he probably fought at moonrise towers, he learned about the forge and was attempting to lead the clerics on an expedition to find it and destroy it.

The three drow found it and learned about its defenses and how to operate it, but each had different pieces of information, and in their pride, they refused to work together. They fought with each other, one summoned The spectator, one was frozen in stone, because it was a unique spectator, which is noted in one of the documents from one of the clerics, that it shouldn't be able to do that, one was killed, and I never found out what happened to the other. Either way, the forge was never found.

What it seems like to me, is that the Drow founded the decrepit Village, because there are cleric notes that mention that the lived in the area somewhere near the Outpost. So my guess is, the clerics pushed too far into the underdark, ran into the Drow who saw them as a threat to finding the forge and completing their mission, especially after their leaders died, and they retaliated by attacking The Outpost and butchering every last one. The surviving clerics retreated into the temple and sealed off the entrance. Shortly after that, with the clerics having lost so many including their leaders, and without a flock to Shepherd because the village was destroyed, the clerics eventually abandoned the temple and probably returned to Baldur's Gate.

As for the Drow, they couldn't find the forge, so they also returned to Menzoberranzan.

Years prior to the game, the iron hand gnomes send some of their kind to Baldur's Gate to be artificers there. This includes Barcus. Within the last year before the game, a blood feud breaks out in the city. The gnomes in the city call out to their clansman in the underdark, and tell them about it. They set up an expedition to the underdark of the western heartlands, and begin searching for the forge. Their hope is that the adamantine will give them an edge in the marketplace in the city.

There is evidence that Decrepit Village was not their main base of operations. The main proof was a note warning those at the village about duergar prowling the shores. So the author was warning what I believe was Expedition 42 to watch out for duergar. Thulla and Philomena and Wulbren were part of the main camp looking for the forge near Glut's Grotto. Duergar found Glut first, wiped out his circle because they were in the way, and then captured the main gnome camp. Shortly after, they found Grymforge.

We know Wulbren was in the main camp because his amulet was taken from him, and eventually somehow wound up in the Lower City where Barcus finds it on a thug. So Wulbren must have been at Decrepit Village at one point and left his journal, which was burnt up somehow.

Months later, Thula escapes to Decrepit Village, probably to get their help, lures Gekh there, the rest of the gnomes are killed or captured, and viola.

Ketheric was turned before the first raid, I think that's the betrayal that Halsin alludes to but also there are correspondences with Ketheric upbraiding his second in command (forget her name) for her failure.

Whatever grievance Ketheric had, I think their might be a Roa angle, his glaive is called regret right, either regret for killing his friend or for possibly causing whatever caused Thorm's fall.

Without any concrete date the occurrances of the Outpost foundation/battle are up in the air, what we do know is that they see the petrified Drow, putting the events likely before most of the Dark Justiciar business. We also know that there were no survivors, because they sealed off the route to the temple and then made a last charge against the Drow. One wounded cleric was left on top of the gate to let them back in or seal it forever. It was sealed forever.

I think you're probably on track for the village but I see no reason not to believe that the Absolute already know where the forge was and have been sending out raiding parties from there.

What makes you believe that the village wasn't where all the gnomes were to begin with? Why does it have to be more complicated than that?

The Outpost documents make it clear the temple was founded with Jarrus and Morna. They arrived with settlers. So Moonhaven was founded at the same time. Jarrus is the one who led the clerics into the Underdark. During this, they encounter the Drow and the spectator which we know was summoned by Xargrim. They are the ones with the forge book stating Yali created Grim and guided the Sharrans in building the forge.

Dhourn makes it clear, no one knows where the forge is except him, and if his rivals are gone, you must die so that he can claim the forge. If Ketheric was around then, at the forge, or the Sharrans or Yali, that doesn't make sense at all. How could they claim the forge if it was founded and owned by Sharrans who were obviously in the area around that founding time.

First of all, we already know that elements of this quest have already have been retconned so be mindful;
Second we have no idea how long Ketheric was reestablishing the Sharran presence there, or how secret it was, and again, we know that both the old temple and something called Grymforge predate Ketheric and Silouv.

The pages, apparently copied from a master tome, describe the construction and use of a grand forge in the Underdark. “Among the Sharrans dwelled the gnome Silouv Yali whose talents for wizardry were known from Candlekeep to Sorcere. Under his tutelage, the Sharrans built the Great Forge, which could heat mithral with such vigor as to turn it to adamantine. With this astonishing metal, they could mold the finest blades and armor. Yet the jewel of Yali’s eye was not the forge itself, but the protector he conjured from the magma to guard it - a construct said to be so mighty that no blade could fell it, and no spell could pierce it.” Instructions for operating the Great Forge are listed underneath. Ingredients: raw mithral ore and a proper mould. Place the ore and mould into their respective chambers. Pull the lever to lower the hammer and prepare the ore for smelting. Open the valve to allow lava into the crucible, and drop the hammer again to forge the product. (Ebonlake Grotto Secret Stash. Flumph Mating Rituals.)

So, it is clear that Yali guides them to build the forge. It does not predate Yali and the Sharrans. This book was in the hands of Xargrim, as if through his searching and researching of the forge, he found this book.

Dhourn: Dust. On. My. Tongue! I offer to parlay, and he brings a spectator? Twit. Quite ruined my ambush. Now. You are?
Me: You first.
Dhourn: We simply haven’t time for all of my titles. I am Dhourn. Third son of House Ba’Tol, first rank evoker, and initiate of Gravenhollow’s… oh. Oh no no my dear dark GOD’S BELOW. NO!
Me: What’s that?
Dhourn: A memory shard. They hold their glow for years - and it’s fading. It contains knowledge that is precious to me. If it has grown this dull… Then my enemies have already found the forge. Which bastard stole my glory - Xargrim? Filro?
Me: Do you speak of the adamantine forge? It’s still hidden, as far as I know.
Dhourn: Impossible. My rivals would have stopped at nothing. Unless, huh. Hah! The fools must have turned back, or better yet, died in the search. Good. If they had just surrendered their research to me, we might have found the forge together. But no. They hoarded their knowledge, left each of us clinging to scraps. I had the good sense to lock mine away in here, and now I can claim the forge alone.
Me: What knowledge does the crystal contain.
Dhourn: Bold of you to ask. The others knew of the forge’s defenses, its operation… but I know where to find it. The rest, I can figure out with time. Now, I am the only one searching… or… almost the only one. You proved your power in freeing me - but I need no more rivals. Try to take this as a compliment. Yes?

If Ketheric found the forge after the Drow, wouldn't I say, "Well, there was this guy Halsin told me about named Ketheric. He came after you and founded an entire fortress at the forge site.". Instead, my character is like, "Yep, nope. No one after you has found it.". Sure, not aware that the duergar have yet, but ultimately my MC is making it clear he thinks Your came after Ketheric. No one has found it since Dhourn.

So. Yali and Sharrans came first. Moonhaven and the temple were founded. Ketheric was good to begin with and people really loved and trusted him. He suffered loss. He went Anakin Skywalker on Halsin and Roa, he became Darth Vader and killed all the younglings at Moonhaven, they defeated him at Moonrise, THEN, later the Drow showed up, which means the temple was destroyed after Ketheric was defeated.

As for the gnomes, the warning about duergar is found in Decrepit Village, which means someone somewhere else in the Underdark was sending it to warn decrepit Village of duergar. So there was another gnome camp out there. Wulbren's amulet had to have been confiscated and sold months before current time so Barcus could see it in the Lower City and make his way there by the game timeline. However, decrepit Village is freshly attacked. So some gnomes were obviously taken but not the ones at Decrepit Village until more recently.

So decrepit Village was likely a small dig site, not their main base, since only a few dead gnomes are found there.

This is what I'm referring to:

Grymforge: A History

[The binding of this book is thicker than its combined pages, which are surprisingly devoid of detail.]

We know little of the ones that came before, but we know they worshipped the Lady of Loss. We know they constructed the great fortress, named...[The next few words are smeared and illegible]. But from whence they came, and why they departed - this is a mystery event to Ketheric Thorm himself.

What we do know is that Shar's chosen has heard Her call. Just as Grymforge served our Mistress eight-hundred years nigh, so it would again.

Here, Thorm's Dark Justiciars shall rise.

Here, we will fulfill our Goddess' pact.

Here, we will rebuild the lost city of Grymforge.

So far will our shadows spread, and so dark will they be, that Selune's light may be forever extinguished.

--

emphasis mine

The use of 'nigh' maybe a little inelegant but it seems that the original temple or at least the city built around it was 800 years old.

Wow. How did I miss that one. Is it at Grymforge?

Ok. Updating timeline. Grymforge was created, then, by Yali and Sharrans some time in 571-ish, 800 years prior to the events of 1371.

Wait a minute! WHAT? Filro is the hook horror drow? He's still freaking alive and in that location?

Now that's straight up unbelievable. And he says his hook horrors bring him gnome flesh to eat.

So wait, how long have the gnomes been down there? According to Thulla, not that long because they had some sort of blood feud in Baldur's and that's why they were down there, to find something to turn the tide.

So you can't tell me they've been down there for over a hundred years?

And what's with the carrion crawlers? Were they around when the drow and Selunites fought, and now they're not there anymore because no on left to inhabit the area after the drow left?

Ugh! Too many questions. My head hurts.

First, I think Yali is clearly brought on board by Ketheric, I think the Forge is new, or possibily the Adamantine part of it is, I think there are some references to Ketheric or Yali being interested in recreating or refurbishing the old forge, so it doesn't necessarily have to be 800 years old. The book also references Grymforge as being a city, so the city could be 800 years old and the forge could be from Ketheric/Silouv's time.

There are under-gnomes in the Underdark, they don't need to be gnomes from that expedition. I'm thinking these Ironblood gnomes have been mining there for a month or more, were enslaved by the Duergar to help excavate the temple, maybe a week or two ago, with Thulla escaping very recently.

I don't think creating a exacting timeline is on the table, judging from the way distances and such are dealt with, like the ladder down to the Selunite outpost, one of the few travel cutscenes we get (the other also being Underdark related). How long are we supposed to understand it takes to climb down to the Underdark? I was under the assumption that it could take days or weeks of serious spelunking before reaching it, but as you know I'm no expert. So it's just going to be one of those hand waving things, how long does it take? Whatever amount of time makes it work. How far are the distances between A - B and A - B - C? Whatever makes sense for the story.
I'm not too bothered by this mode of storytelling as long as the game doesn't create too many loopholes and internal contradictions.

By design, none of this is clear, and as we've seen a few times, it's subject to change.