Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

A couple of thoughts:

I don't think the success of OwlCat would ever hinder Larian's own success in any way. Outside of truly zealous fans, you're not really looking at any consumer exclusivity here between the 2 games. In fact, your audience for BG3 is most likely coming from WoTR and vice versa. The CRPG market is simply way too product starved, and the relatively cheap "one-and-done" nature of the product simply won't foster that kind of consumer base. It's not like MMOs or the live-service franchises where there's a tendency for consumers to commit and sink most of their time, attention, and money into just one product.

If anything, I'd argue that there is a bit of a "network effect" in the CRPG genre. I.e. the success and exposure of a few companies/products will helps improve the visibility and viability of the entire genre. Not to say there is no competition, but CRPG releases are basically few enough and spaced out enough that the consumer base heavily cross pollinates. So many of the smaller, indie-developers in this genre basically relies on the bigger names to generate word of mouth and sales. From a videogame standpoint, the CRPG genre's biggest threat isn't each other - but competition that threatens to make the entire CRPG genre mostly forgotten (i.e. think the dark days of the early 2010s when everything is about Skyrim, titles like DA deviating to be more "action focused" to appeal to more casual gamers, etc).


In terms of evaluating the financial success of WoTR vs. BG3, and OwlCat vs. Larian, that is tough as nails just because both companies are completely private and we don't have any solid information outside of highly speculative numbers. But that's all we have, and I think the above discussion is very interesting. Some things I'd like to point out:

- ROI is definitely a good starting indicator of project success, but the project size absolutely matters too. It's simply harder to coordinate bigger projects with more teams and people, so you never fully expect the same amount of return. Valuation of companies/success is something pretty difficult to do EVEN if we had the numbers (just due to the varying risk levels each company can take on, different goals and markets), and is basically impossible with just speculated numbers.

- In terms of comparing sales, the price point and time of sale is pretty important to factor in too. BG3 obviously starts at a higher price point (I think for the U.S. it's just 20% more - 60 USD vs 50 USD). Frontloading sales is pretty important in terms of determining financial health of a project. There's obviously the time-value of money, but also because tail-end sales tend to be driven heavily by discounts. The 1-2 million+ EA sales is actually a massive success for BG3 due to its effects on company cash flow (2 years before launch). ​

The overall company health of both is even harder to discern. As a complete outsider, Larian's aggressive expansion scares me. As per the investment issue I pointed to above, the more employees, the more the culture and talent pool gets diluted. It's simply much easier to find, maintain, and manage a high performance team of 20 vs 100. Over-expansion is an easy way for a relatively successful company to falter. However, one thing that Larian has on their side is their own Divinity IP (which has value of its own). It makes taking on a project like BG3 less risky and provides more upside (it's putting the company into the spotlight). Whereas Owlcat doesn't have that fallback and has yet to make that "franchise-leap", which can be a pretty big risk factor for a company (especially if they were forced to, i.e. Paizo went exclusive with someone else).

Ultimately, the 2 projects/companies likely have pretty different goals (speculation, of course), and thus different definitions of success. WoTR seems heavily targeted to CRPG core, and I think with its heavier than POE2 sales numbers, they've been relatively successful. Whereas BG3 is clearly trying to expand the current CRPG consumer base, pushing towards the "mainstream" and the old base of the peak Bioware games, and maybe a bit towards newer base within the rapidly growing Table Top world. Realistically, I think the next Owlcat game will benefit hugely if BG3 is successful.

Now look carefully what these games are. Most of those games, which are less than 1% away from CP77 are half-baked indie games made by 1-2 people, often on the RPGMaker software. They never claimed to push boundaries or that they have immersive worlds. And yes, this is the level of CP77. Any more questions?

nm, this is silly

Completed the game as Mythic Path of the Demon. It is not very popular, but completely in vain. I think many who have passed the game in other ways will be interesting to listen to.

Spoilers! lol

I know the other paths all have their own differences to the story and campaign, its an absolutely fantastic amount of content and value. I'm currently running an Azata game, but I have saves for several other ones.

I'll be playing this game for years at this rate.

I already want to play the game again, it's too good. On the way of Azata, you can turn to the side of good of many villains, even Minago? Or something like that as far as I read. It is worth seeing and an interesting experience, I would like this path of goodness, if we could heal this unfortunate demon and get rid of the desire to attack MC. Although not sure about the healing, there was definitely a Azata dialogue.

But the repeated passes will be in the story mode, the combat system is excellent, but it makes no sense to re-do such a challenge, it seems to me.

ha, im just about to start an Azata playthrough, looking forward to it. The badass feeling the mythic paths give you is just so good right?

If every mythical path has the same unique experience, then it's just fuс***g awesome.

I already see that Lich also has a 100% unique experience and is well-developed, but as for the rest of the paths, I'm not sure that there will be so much other content.

But if Azata is also very different (I hope so), it's just a brain explosion

From what I gather, each path has something quite unique about the experience. All have something pretty awesome, even if its a twist at the ending, or different companions/paths, and so on.

Its really quite the game. Honestly once its polished just a bit (I've had no game ending bugs at all but minor issues) I can easily rank it as one of the great games of all time.

I think the game does a great job of giving each path some pretty amazing moments, even if the main plot / events are roughly the same (i.e. no Witcher 2 style branches), there's enough moments and context shifts that makes each playthrough quite fresh.

Some definitely feel more complete than others (i.e. Lich and Angel), but I've enjoyed the ones I've played so far.

Honestly, assuming that most 5e players really care about compliance with the rules is quite naive.
5e has gained so much popularity in relation to older editions that due to the simplicity that helped attract casual players (I bet they are the vast majority).
We are also talking about an edition which was supposed to be characterized by great freedom.

The game will sell to DnD fans (among those who actually play the games) only because it is located in the forgotten realms. As long as the game is good, it guarantees that most players will not care if the game is compliance with the rules.

reporting in that i completed wrath of righteous. the game is seriously so good!. gonna 2nd playthrough with trickster on hard. i'm not sure how larian is going to win me over with baldur's gate 3 in all honesty. the only thing that is opening my eye for baldur's gate 3 is just the visuals and d&d for now. i only completed bg3 EA once and it has been forgotten since that.

i really hope larian could change my perception with full release.

Larian needs to pay attention to the success of Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous and draw conclusions about what everyone expects from RPGs and Dark Fantasy. I would like to see something similar performed by Larian with AAA scale and animated scenes, even if it is not BG3 but something in the future.

Hilarious. Apparently for some, any RPG made by Larian is automatically the best game ever made, and all RPGs made by any other developer are a "scam."

Looking forward to buying and thoroughly enjoying CP2077 in a few weeks.

if you weren't on the hype train thinking it was going to be gta and skyrim combined, it's not a bad game at all. It feels very much like a Deus Ex style of game to me.

the only thing that larian beats owlcat is their game engine in my opinion. wrath of righteous is seriously good in terms of gameplay. however, the story, lore and characters were really great for me too. the real issue with owlcat engine is that there are too many loading screen and it took some time to load though. i completed twice during beta and only complete once with angel. i still love angel quite abit but trickster is something.. especially there are 2 extras bosses to fight i heard. starting on hard is really tough though. the difficulty of the game lies during the early level of the game. visual looks phenomenal too. not sure if it's just me but it does looks better to me in final release and smoother too (in performance) comparing to beta.

What do you think about the musical part of the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous? OST is great
The voice actors are pretty nice too.

What about Owlcat sense of humor?
Not only on the Trickster's way, the scientist Kitsune is very funny. Her personal quest is the most brutal thing in the game, and worthy of separate discussion and hatred, but it was intended that way.


When you try to leave that location without solving the riddle, Kitsune becomes sad. The player says "we'll come back here sometime", and she breaks the fourth wall saying that you need to be realistic and no one will come back here.

How do you like that cute quest when you need to collect dreams for Arushalai?

How do you like the evil but lawful knight gnome? Comic or serious? In passing as a demon, he tried to kill me along with his knights.

How much can beautiful and sophisticated in appearance Camellia surprise you? This is a natural maniac, but you can become her real friend or beloved, and the game does not condemn us for questions of morality - it only gives an opportunity, and this opportunity is well developed. Although, the ability to persuade her to a lesser evil like Viconia in BG would be nice so that she does not go away in the epilogue, but perhaps there is such an opportunity, I'm not sure, I need to go through the game again. For example, through the persuasion not to kill her father in a personal quest and to have at least some boundaries.

Although Camellia looks like pure evil, totally corrupted, not amenable to any correction - even Arilu Vorlesh and Nocticula look netural compared to her, Aeon cannot correct her because such is her nature, and this is definitely an interesting experience. I am glad that Owlcat did such a performance, such characters are really unusual and interesting. I love the fact that you CAN act out that way to have a romance with Camellia and see the whole drama, and not just "kill her and that's it." She is able to seduce to take the path of evil to build a relationship with her, learn Larian.

Ember is the same pure embodiment of goodness. A character who is able to make the player want to pass for Good way.

And the charismatic Deiran and his secret? This is the analogue of Astarion. If there were statistics on who the female players liked more, he would definitely have the first place.

WoTR's music is 10/10 for me. It's straight up epic. For me, I honestly can't really think of a CRPG that has done it better... maybe since Mask of the Betrayer?

Their greatest accomplishment IMO is the fantastic job of making each Mythic theme sound very distinct but individually beautiful, which contributes greatly to each experience. I.e. Angel feels appropriately epic, righteous and powerful, whereas something like Aeon is hauntingly alien and beautiful, etc. That main "Mythic Power-up Theme" is also an absolute banger.


I don't really love Owlcat's sense of humour. It's roughly in the same tier as Larian's where I'm not actively bothered by it, but it's also not really something I enjoy.

Actually, games like GTA don't appeal to me at all, and I did not care for Skyrim. But I loved TW3, and the only reason I didn't buy CP2077 right away is that I tend to like only RPGs in fantasy settings and generally have a hard time with immersion in other settings, especially ones involving guns/directed energy weapons because the consequences of getting hit by those kinds of weapons don't seem to be realistically represented. Any thoughts (from anyone) on how to get past this?

oof, that's rough. If you don't like the setting, you're going to automatically start off on the wrong food. I LOVE anything Science Fiction and Fantasy, but Science Fiction is probably my favorite genre period, so it's easy for me to get into it. Putting the difficulty to maximum would definitely make the stakes seem higher could work maybe? I used to have to use mods for Skyrim to make combat deadly for everyone, me and npcs. one or two hits was all it took if you weren't paying attention. That would make the game more tactical, but I'm not sure if that's what would help you enjoy it though.