Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Why I Want More D&D 5e Rules

What does it matter who said what and when?

If I go to the McDonalds and buy a Big Mac, and I take a bite out of it and it doesn't taste like what I was expecting, I would go to the register and say, "There's something wrong with my burger. It doesn't taste the way I expected it to. Can I:

A. Get a refund

Or

B. Could I get a replacement; another one that does satisfy me, the customer.

We are Larian customers. We are unhappy with the combat system and rules used for this game. We were expecting D&D 5e. We got something totally different.

Now, I'm not looking for a refund, but I'd like Larian to do something to make me a satisfied customer. If they do, I walk away liking Larian more because they were willing to do something to satisfy me and make me happy. If they don't, I'm likely not going to be a very happy customer and I might not ever buy anything from them again.

I see ...
Well, as many other people im sure, i also dont read everything in every topic i write something ...
That is why i quote ... to explicitly and clearly state what im reacting to, not to cut your coments to misleading out ot content cuted parts that can be evily twisted to make completely other sense (as some people seems to believe around here) ...
Cant do much more than just ask you to thrust me in this matter tho.

Therefore i can with one hand on bible and another one on heart i can tell you that i didnt know it was said.
That is why i asked for the source.

I actualy find this sentence quite funy, but simmilar as most other asumptions ...
I was acused countless times of this ... but never provided any clear example. O_o

So, feel free to be angry at me if you feel like it ... but such acusations sounds to me like some general gibberish, people use when they wish to insult someone indirectly, bcs they dont have anything solid in their amunition folder. :-/
But to be honest, you make me sad ... i had higher opinion about you.

Me neither ...
Not today, not ever ... not about this ... acusation of lie is a serious one and i hate it with all my heart.

Personaly i find number of people irellevant ...
There are, were and continue to be a very great number of people across many countries who believe that Earth is flat ... but that doesnt make it true. :-/


I never said they did ...
Selective perception is well documented phenomenon ... that that have nothing to do with hallucination.

In short ... people tend to hear what they want to hear and tend to ignore what they dont want to hear ...
You practialy prooved it on those quotes you give me in your previous post ... YOU presumed those changes Swen was talking about will be just some minor irelevant things, but HE never actualy said it.

Exactly ... expectation ... not adversiment.
As i keep repeating all the time.

Please try to uderstand me ...
I really dont mind if people wish to make things more 5e (despite of what some people around here think) ... me myself wants some things to be more closer to that ruleset ...
The only thing i simply cant stand in topics like this is that complaining about Larian laying to them ... bcs that is simply not true.

If Larian advertising would be so much focused on "we will bring you 5e" as you (and all those not hallucinating, yet pissed off fans) are trying to say ... how is that possible that i never had the feeling that this was promised? O_o
Here is a hint: I never EXPECTED it.
They did ...
And while we were hearing the same interviews, read the same articles, watched the same shows ...
I come to conclusion they are trying to create fun game, while using 5e as inspiration from wich they will borrow from time to time.
You come to conclusion they are trying to create fun game, while using 5e as source material, to wich they will add from time to time.
I mean come on, the only difference is that expectation here ... i cant explain it more clearly even if i draw a picture. :-/

Dont think i dont get it ...
I also had my fair share of false expectations in the past ... my last disapointment so far was Venom 2 ... but i would never even think to blame studio for it, they made it just the way they wanted to, it just didnt fit my taste and i expected something else than it was suppose to be, but that is my own fault.

I wonder what do you mean, when you say Media ...
Is that those articles as you quoted previously? That last two? When someone entirely different, and not tied to Larian in any way claimed to give people "certainly confrimed information" that quite soon showed themself to be false?
Yes that is a problem, totally agree.
But its not Larian problem ... and it sickens me to see people i respected so far to see spiting on Larian for something someone entirely different claimed. :-/

It would be like judging you for something i said. :-/
That simply doesnt seems right.

I cant honestly believe this.
That person who would not care no matter what would simply started the discusion and let others join him ... most likely you would not even know (as you dont right now) ... its nice to theoreticaly exclude them, but since there is no way to find them, the practical value of such statement is 0.

Question is how many of them were with Swen ...

Then there would be second question and that would be how is that possible that they all dissapeared coveniently?
Another phenomen come to play here ... selective memory, again nothing new, well documented thing.

Thats what im trying you tell you. Quite litteraly.

And you THOUGHT you know what does it mean ... and it meaned in your eyes exactly the things that were in like with YOUR EXPECTATION ... how covenient ...
Now you find out it meaned something else ... and you are frustrated, i can understand that.

Fun fact: What is even large-scale? And im not asking about your opinion here ... im asking for some general, universal definition.
Once again there is expression in my country: 100 times nothing killed the donkey.

Or different example ...
When Mike Tyson was fighting some much large boxer (i dont remember a name) in start of his carier, nobody believed that he even can win ... surprisingly he did.
When they interviewed the large one after the fight he said: "He reached barely my chin ... but he did it often."

What im trying to say here is that even if Swen would say they "just adjusted the minorest thing in the world" it means little, if they did it with every single thing in the game ... sudently its a large scale of minor tweats.

Yup ... that is exactly what im telling you.
You believed them when they said "as faithfully as possible" and ignored them when they started with "but there will be adjustments" since you simply expected them to be minor, insignificant and obviously there, bcs those things were granted ...

All im trying to tell you is if you would not ignore the rest, you would not dismis them as "obviously irellevant compared to that superexiting news" ... you would not be so dissapointed. :-/
I feel for you, but its still not Larian fault.

Well ... their first and foremost goal is to sell the product, after all ...
Cant really blame them for trying to. :-/

I really wanted BG3 to be that game.
This might surprise you but ... I would like that too.

I believe so ...
But that dont mean it cant become one.

Depends on what "give up" means ...
But if you would believe me at least a little, try the rest sometimes ... not accept, but reconcider ... take some things you are dissapointed about and think if you could change your attitude towards them to feel less down about them ... i started with this few years ago, and it might be quite enlightening sometimes.
Not allways tho, bcs sometimes people are just dirty douchebags and you can do nothing about it.
But its interesting experience anyway, the one i can only recommend.

Im just killing time actualy.
Also i dont defend design choices, well, not all of them at least.

Nah, not at all. :-/
What makes me happy is seeing people understands what im trying to tell them (lately its mostly Flooter and mrfuji3) ... it doesnt matter if they agree with me or not, different opinions are more that just welcomed (i allways despite people who surround themself with only those to agree with them, or those who fear to express their honest opinion just so they dont get expelled from some grou) ... the important part for me is seeing that message was recieved and processed corectly.
Seeing someone disagree bcs he obviously missinterpret something i said makes me sad.

And also ... i honestly love and kinda envy your energy you put to your focused feedbacks ...
This forum would be much poorer without you.

You never know that, at least not until full release ... just bcs they dont respond that dont mean they dont listen ...
Just look how many thigs was allready changed, and they never seemed to listen (at least based on responces). :-/
And even if they dont, someone else might ... someone with skills and will to make a mod, just need the right push.

If that is any comfort, i personaly believe that you did tremendous job in your reporting and analysing.

This is never easy job ...
But back in the days i was moderator on one czech forum, i was told by one senior that this kind of work is thankless, endless and frustrating ... but it only will be worthless if you stop. :-/

We all kinda burned out, a year is a long time. :-/

That was never my intention.

The best part of taking part in an EA is that you get to play with all the mad shit before it gets fixed or taken out. I'm enjoying it while it lasts, because I do think that larian will pull all the threads together.

Keep giving the feedback. The game is changing, and it seems to headed in the DnD direction and that will at least in part be due to the feedback.
There's less grumbling about barrels here now, or surfaces as these have been changed. I want better class distinction too, and monsters that are closer to the given description. But I also understand that the Tabletop game allows for modifcation to those desciptions to fit the DMs narrative, and I'd expect to see that here too.

So. I'm not in the "happy with the game" camp, because it's not a game. I am reasonably happy with the direction development is taking but frustrated with the slow pace. As for communication, that could be better. Half the problem here is we don't have enough to talk about, just the same old people having the same old conversations until we're all either grumpy or quitting. Maybe if Larain put things out for us to offer opinions on (like models for new monsters or races, armors, animations...) anything to put some meat on the bone we're chewing for them.
Because enthusiasm has lapsed, you can really see that here.

I would like goblins NOT to have 3d6 bombs (lol) and not to have a quiver of magical arrows. The surface effects are still ridiculous and cause constant concentration checks for no reason.

Dodge a fire arrow and then lose your spell to 1 point of dmg from the burning surface. What a joke.

It will one day be a great EA story to tell your kids about.

Hi Umbra,

I couldn't agree more.

To add to this, I want to be clear that modifcation to those desciptions to fit the DMs narrative is totally good with me too. For example, the spectator being able to petrify and depetrify. I had a problem with it at first because they shouldn't be able to do that. However, text found in the Underdark calls this out. It is part of the narrative that this is a special spectator. So, I'm fine with it. Great. That's the kind of stuff that you'd expect.

So we 5e'ers aren't all just about absolute 5e, as some would accuse us. We just want more 5e and less homebrew to stabilize the game and make classes more unique and special.

And I agree about the "same old conversations" too. I've thought about giving up on BG3 more than a dozen times. I'm getting really tired of fighting the battle against the same old argumentative people who just want to debate every little tiny detail to DEATH until the dead horse is so mutilated we can't even tell it was originally a horse.

I would ABSOLUTELY love it if Larian gave us topics. I'd also love for them to at least tell us what they're planning. If you ain't gonna give us a 6 party max, for example, just say it so we stop crying out for it. Even if they say, "Hey. We hear ya. We're trying to make 6 party max an option to work but not sure it will." At least that's something. And if they're like, "Nope. Not gonna happen.". Let us know. If I know the answer is no, fine. I'm good. I accept their decision and will live with it.

This endless screaming into the void is wearing REAL thin. I literally never want to be a part of an EA again.

It matters a lot, when the statements are being attributed to someone that didn't make them. It matters a lot when those statements are taken and twisted by others to imply that Larian has said something they didn't say. The most "damning" quotes in Niara's post are irrelevant, because they weren't made by Larian, but by a third party, and they weren't based on anything Larian said, but on what they hoped for from the game, or on what they hoped would bring them the most clicks, since that's how they make their money.

The problem being that you didn't order a Big Mac, you ordered a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, and they didn't give you the cheese, or maybe not enough cheese. There are some flaws, after all, that do need to be addressed, but at it's core, it is a DnD combat system. Despite your outrage, the basics are there, and it really doesn't get much more basic. Having played both Solasta and BG 3, if one isn't hitting up all the exploits, the combat plays out basically the same, except that it does seem, even w/out the "loaded dice" that had to be added because of skill check rolls that made the community unhappy, that I still hit more in BG 3 than in Solasta. Something that has come up on Solasta's forum as well.

So, as someone that isn't taking advantage of broken mechanics, that hopefully get fixed before release, the game feels very much like DnD. Of course, for me, this isn't a deal breaker either way. I'm looking for something else entirely, based on most of the same information. Contrary to your weak attempt at character assassination earlier in this thread, I'm not looking for a DoS/DnD hybrid, I'm looking for a game that's going to have me looking at the clock and realizing that it's 4 AM, and I should have been in bed hours ago. If this game can do that after release, it's going to be successful in my eyes, and any review I might be inclined to write would state that.

If your post takes more than a second to scroll through please shorten and/or spoiler tag it. Separately quoting every single line from long posts mainly just makes posts extremely long and disjointed to read. Quote fewer (but larger) parts of others' posts, condense your responses, or just put quotes (and/or your responses) in a spoiler tag and @ the user you're responding to so they know to read it. Thanks.

Also Niara you've done amazing work here, providing many in-depth and useful analyses of various aspects of BG3 - the game itself, Larian's communications and EA process, etc. I certainly have enjoyed reading your various posts and debating you on certain 5e rules. The forums would be worse off without you. That said, if you're mainly unhappy with the time you're spending on the forum, then you should prioritize yourself. Even if we take as truth that Larian is looking at and considering all of our feedback here, honestly they've probably already gotten 99% by now...at least until actual new content is released. Is Larian - and other posters - worth it? (But if you do take a break please come back to give a scathing detailed review of Larian's next PfH XD)

I'll second this:
At some point, if a large enough sample of people are confused or feeling deceived, the speaker (Swen, Larian, OR the media in this case) is at least partially to blame for any miscommunication. If I went to a high school intro physics class and gave a high-level lecture on quantum mechanics - the Schrodinger equation, probability amplitudes, and Bose-Einstein Condensates - is it my fault or the students' fault that most of them wouldn't understand? (Edit: This is obviously not the same as what happened here; it's just an example showing how the speaker can be at fault.)

I've effectively ignored you Rob. Sorry. You just won't stop relentlessly defending Larian for some reason. You must REALLY love Larian because no matter what anyone says you are fervently defending them tooth and nail. I'm glad you are such a fan, but I really hate pointless debating and arguing over things that don't matter.

I'm a customer. I didn't get the product I thought I was buying. 2nd of story. I'm suggesting that Larian implement options for people like me, since I'm not alone, so that we can also play the game the way WE want to play it.

The way I see it, you are in European football camp. I'm in American football camp. The game is more made for European football lovers. I'm hoping they make it an option so we American football players can also more fully love the game.

That's it. No arguments about who is right or wrong. I don't really care who said what or whether Larian has a legit reason to totally ignore my request. I think it would make the game better, so I'm suggesting that they do more 5e because the point of EA is to provide such feedback.

This is a suggestion board, people are making suggestions (in this case about better implementation of the 5e ruleset). There is nothing wrong with that.
I'm playing in a pen & paper DND 5e group at the moment and have the comparison in real time, since I'm also doing a new playthrough of BG3. And there is stuff, I wish would make it into the BG3 game.
And yes, I want 6 companions in the group, a better fighting system and other stuff. That doesn't mean, I hate the game, far from it. But I see it as my job as a player of EA to give feedback. I'm not doing it as constantly as GM4, Niara and a few others here, because of real life stuff keeping me busy, but I'm wondering, why people, who point out stuff, they think could benefit from a change, are treated as if they are haters.
Maybe instead of looking who said what when, concentrate of what you like or don't like about the game and give that feedback - yes positive stuff too. SO if Rag finds everything great, he should say it as much as GM4, who wants a more faithful 5e implementation.
That is my 2 cent about all this. I would find it sad, if people turn their backs on the forums or even the game, because they think, they are not heard or worse, their opinion is not valid.

Absolutely fylimar! Thank you.

And now, let me metion what BG3 does have that IS D&D 5e:

Dice rolls for dialogue options. Yes! This is good. If anything, I'd like to see more of it. I know some people hate it because they just want to pick a dialogue option and succeed every time, and maybe they could make an option for that, not just weighted dice, but I love it! Talk about replayability! Every time I play this game, it's a different experience because you never know if you're going to succeed on any given Persuasion or Deception roll or whether you might succeed or fail on Insight or Intimidate or Medicine, etc.

THAT'S what I"m talking about. That's pure RPG D&D gold, and I want more.

Example: I've mentioned it on a different thread. In the beginning, we meet Shadowheart. For some reason, she's wearing a Dark Justiciar armor set. We now know this because when we reach Grymforge you can find a suit of Dark Justiiciar armor that is virtually identical. Other Dark Justiciars in Grymforge are also wearing similar armor, and the statues indicate, Yes! This is Shar worshippers at their pinnacle.

So let's have a History or Religion roll as soon as we meet her. Failure means we don't detect anything. Success means our character knows that she's wearing armor of Shar. Then give the player a very brief synopsis of who Shar is. Something like, "She's wearing an armor with symbols of Shar on it; the round, black onyx stones. Shar is the Mistress of the Night, Goddess of Darkness, Pain and Loss. She is considered evil by most people."

Bam! Now we know right then and there that she's a Cleric of Shar IF we succeed in the roll.

Another example: Arabella is bitten by Teela, the snake. Give the player the option to make a Medicine check. If Failure, you watch, like current, as Arabella dies. If Success, you recognize the type of snake she is and immediately devise a remedy to save Arabella's life. Quickly, you snatch up some leaves off of a vine nearby. Grabbing a flask of water from the table in the chamber near the other druids, you crush the leaves into the water, swirl it, tilt Arabella's head back and pour the cure down her throat, saving her just in time.

THAT'S the kind of stuff I want more of. Give us more of that. Yes!

And more 5e combat and stats and class traits and stats and so forth.

such a long thread. just to cast my vote on the OP. can't say it better myself. i concur. it doesn't taste like hamburger to me as well. the biggest issue for me on how much it looks, play and feels like DOS2 to me and i'm getting the notion that larian really just wanted a DOS game in the veins of d&d which is truly wrong IMO. it's right spot on by the OP on the monster stats and the bonus action / stealth which take outs from rogue and given it to everyone else seems inappropriate personally myself. if those were taken out, would that make the gameplay worst or slower and annoying?

Yeah, I would love more of that kind of stuff - but I do have some issues with the system. And I think it is less BG3 and more DnD 5e.

I find bonuses from characters builds to be underwhelming. Maybe it will get better as I level up, but in EA, bonuses I get from attributes/skills feel minor compared to buffs. As such few things feel like a reward for picking certain build. I do favour Obsidian's flat skill checks, but Disco did dice rolls recently and did them better - with both less RNG through use of two dices, and bigger impact of our build on the result.

The issue I have, is that I feel that check like that still wouldn't properly recognise our investment in medicine. Those who invested in medicine would have advantage, but still best bet would be to buff and force our way through RNG. I don't get the feeling from BG3 of "I build my character that way, and therefore I can do this". I am not sure where the fault lies exactly.

It's just because you're at such low levels right now. Level 5 and beyond, proficiency bonuses start to increase, and skills become more pronounced.

This is also why rogue expertise is sorely missed by players like me. It sets rogues apart by doubling proficiency bonuses.

Check out the proficiency table at this site:

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Character%20Advancement#content

Also, read this explanation: https://www.fandomspot.com/dnd-5e-expertise/

As you can see, proficiency bonuses are what makes classes more distinct. Without expertise, rogues and such are not much different from anyone else. With expertise, they are clearly set apart.

I wouldn't say that they are very important.
The difference between a character (with proficiency) on level 1 and a character on level 10 is a miserable +2.
This is a stupid system and I hope 5.5e will fix it eventually.

That is why skill expert feat exists.

Double proficiency makes a +2 a +4 difference.

So maybe at level 1 you had only +2, but by level 10 with skill expert, you might have +8. Quite the difference.

It's all about what's important to your character.

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/feat:skill-expert

i thoroughly enjoyed pathfinder 1st ed. heard pathfinder 2nd ed. was quite a nerf which i personally dislike. new to dnd5e. does level 20 brings to high level fights? are there mythic progression in d&d5e? or it's simply a nerf version for low level campaign?

In all my games of D&D 5e, I don't think I've ever seen a person take the skill expert feat. It's just not worth it, except for maybe on a high level fighter since they get so many more feats. You lose out on an ASI or one of the much better feats. And even if you do take it (since most campaigns stop around level 10), this gets you an additional +3 or +4 bonus to a skill which is...not really that much. 15-20% better chances of success.

I dislike 5e's system of skill advancement combined with the variance of a d20. There's ~no customization as you level up, which makes leveling up more boring. The bonuses are generally so low, even for level 10+ characters. And you have to take a feat to get proficiency in any new skills. This would be a thing I'd be happy for Larian to change, though I still want some amount of randomness.
- Perhaps Dicso Elysium's 2d6 + bonuses for skill checks. I've also seen 2d10 suggested, which is more similar to 1d20
- Some system of improving or getting new skills at level ups. Int mod (minimum 1) skill points to spend every ~4-5 levels, additional skill proficiencies added to classes/feats, something.

It's all about DC. In previous versions, DCs could easily be above 20. 5e stabilizes DC, keeping the high end at 20 with very rare instances above 20 for really really hard actions.

So a +1 is actually a 5% increase to your skill roll.