Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But since the Pathfinder system averages out the typical skill DCs between characters of all skills, Pathfinder characters that put a lot of ranks into a skill are much better than their D&D counterparts.

In Pathfinder, a level 1 "moderately challenging" DC is 15. A player with ranks in a class skill can have a +6 (60% chance) while a player with no ranks in it has a +1 (35% chance).
But at level 18, a "moderately challenging" DC is 30. A player with points in the skill can easily have a ~27+ (including magical items, feats, etc: >90% chance) while the player with no ranks has a +6 (0% chance). Even players with a few ranks will have maybe a +12, which is still only a 15% chance.

Whereas in 5e, normal level 1 characters (ignoring rogues/expertise) will have a +5 bonus to certain skills and +1 to some others (55% and 35% chance again to hit DC 15).
At level 18, these same skills will have bonuses of +12 and +2. Let's say the DC for a similarly difficult check goes up to DC 18. This is a 75% chance for the skilled player and a 25% chance for the unskilled.

In sum, higher level 5e characters have a lower chance of success for skilled checks than their Pathfinder counterparts, and the difference between unskilled and skilled 5e characters is less than Pathfinder characters. Thus, rng matters more in 5e.

You're missing a detail here;

In Pf, the DC of checks moves relative to the party - as you said yourself, a moderate challenge is represented by a 15 at low levels, and by a 30 at high levels in Pf. This is NOT the case in 5e.

This means that your comparison is not balanced.

In Pf, a level 1 moderate challenge is 15. And players might be expected to have a 60% chance to succeed if trained towards it, and a ~35% chance if not.
In 5e at level 1, a moderate challenge is 15. Players might be expected to have a +5 if trained (55%) and +1/+2 if not (~35%).

At level 18 in pf a moderate challenge is a 30 DC, and a +90% chance if we include feats magic items and features (trusting your numbers), while an untrained character won't be able to succeed at all, at this 'moderate challenge'

At level 18, in 5e, a moderate challenge is still a DC 15. That's the marker for a moderate challenge and it doesn't change. A character with proficiency, and let's say one core stat exceed and one magic item that adds +1 to the skill in question, nothing else - they'd probably have more than that, but I'm keeping it slim - will have a +13 - so a +90% chance to succeed. An untrained character will still be at that roughly 35% chance to pass a moderate challenge that they were originally.

In sum, higher level 5e characters have a equal or better chances of success for skilled checks than their Pathfinder counterparts, and generally have to sacrifice less to get there, and the difference between unskilled and skilled 5e characters is less than Pathfinder characters.

If you present ME those two systems and ask me which one feels like better character skill progression and growth, I'm absolutely going to tell you it's the second one, hands down.

In one game, my level 1 ranger has a +9 to hit with her bow - on the trip through to level 4 she never missed once.
In another game my rogue has +11 to stealth at level 5 (and +10 to initiative).
In another game, my bard has a +12 to performance and persuasion, still at low levels as well.

The bonuses are plenty potent enough in 5e's system, and they absolutely do NOT need to be any higher. You can definitely build your characters to be effective and skilled at certain things, already. The skill progression in 5e is good. It's Meaningful. I far, Far prefer it to other previous systems.

Like Pathfinder... where you will frequently have characters who will drown on still calm lakes because they didn't have the spare points to put ranks into their specific "swimming" skill, because they needed those skill ranks for other things that actually made them effective in their role, like stealth, sleight of hand, disable device, perception, bluff - you know, the ones that matter... but since they didn't 'waste' ranks on 'swimming', they now will drown on calm placid lakes on sunny still days, if they try to take 10 on the swim across it. Such a great system I don't think, thanks...

Last edited by Niara; 12/12/21 12:17 AM.