Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Shadowheart's Armor Revisited - SPOILER???

OK. So, remember when we had those debates back and forth about onyx stones = Shar symbols and some were debating that just because you wear an onyx stone it doesn't mean you're a follower of Shar?

So, was selling an onyx stone in BG3 to a vendor, and noticed the description. It clearly says that it is said that wherever Shar walks onyx stones are dropped, or something to that effect.

So, even Larian is agreeing that onyx = Shar symbol.

Therefore, once again I'd like to revisit the "We should have our characters roll immediately upon meeting Shadowheart to see if we recognize her armor as Sharran and then provide our character with some sort of idea who Shar is. A brief description of her being a Goddess of Darkness and Loss, etc. Then, Shadowheart reveal happens immediately. She is a cleric of Shar. Done.

Either that or put her in something besides Dark Justiciar armor. If that armor is vital to the story and makes the most sense for her to be wearing, because maybe she was resurrected in it or something and didn't have time to change, then fine, but we need a roll in the beginning so players know who Shar is and that Shadowheart is a cleric of Shar. Fail the roll, and you don't know. Find out during the rest of the game.

Anyway, this was sparked by the onyx description and thought I'd throw it back out there for re-review.

In real world we also have moonstone ...
Does that mean that anyone who wears it worship moon?

I mean ... this is classic A = B =/> B = A situation ...
Every shar worshipper will wear Onyx ...
Not anyone who wear Onyx is Shar worshipper.

Sure, there are other things like shape of that symbol on her forehead, paudrons, and on her armor in general. :-/
I still believe she should be using Discuise Self on her armor and reveal its true looks after she admits what she is.

So +1 i gues.
Even tho i dont agree with premise, the outcome would be welcomed.

In the real world you don't have gods and goddesses who actually enter into the world and walk among people. Unless of course you believe that Jesus is God.

Like it's been stated before, people do wear the cross and they're not necessarily a Christian. Nevertheless, the cross is still very widely known as the symbol of Christianity. If you wear a cross, you will cause people to wonder if you are a Christian or not. If you are a pastor or priest, and you wear a cross, no one will even wonder what you are a minister of. They will assume you are a Christian minister.

Indeed ...
Except crosses dont exist naturaly in the world.

That would be good example for her shoulders and the form on her jewel on forehead ...
You know what i mean right? Comparing shape, to shape.

Onyx on the other hand is just a stone ... a material.
So to make adequate example you would need to say something like:
All Christians wear at least one jewel with Ruby ... therefore if you see someone wearing Ruby, its logical to presume that person is a Christian.
Wich does not work like that.

The fact that Gods can manifest physicaly in this setting seems completely irellevant to me.

+1

Look. All I'm saying is, description of onyx in the game calls out that it is a stone of Shar. Onyx = Shar. That's basically what the description says. Shar walks, onyx is created.

Cleric shows up in armor with onyx stones on it as big as day. She has them on her shoulders and on a circlet on her forehead. Clerics are supposed to require a spell focus which is their religious symbol. The ONLY item that even comes close, which actually should be a required item for her to keep on her to cast spells, is her circlet. It has a big onyx right there in the center.

So, let's use another religious symbol, since we may not want to keep bringing Christianity into it. Don't want people getting all fired up about religion here. The exact religion here isn't the point.

So let's use the Yin Yang. You just crashed on a beach, the boat you were on has sunk. You encounter a person with robes that have the Yin Yang all over them. You discover they are a priest, but they don't offer up what priesthood they are apart of. But they have Yin Yang all over them.

All I'm suggesting is that a Religion check be made. If our world was an RPG and the scenario above I just provided were applied to our real world, a person would roll a Religion roll to see if they recognize the Yin Yang symbol. 10 or higher, a moderate difficulty. A roll of 10 would give me information that the Yin Yang belongs to some sort of Oriental religion/philosophy. I made the roll, so I know something, but I don't really know much about the Yin Yang. I just know it's religious/philisophical, and it is Oriental in nature. I also happen to know that the meaning is that there is a bit of evil in good and a bit of good in evil. These are basics about Yin Yang.

A roll of 15 provides me with more information. Ah, it has its roots in Taoism. It is a Chinese religious/philosophical symbol. The yin is the dark swirl, associated with shadows, femininity, and the trough of a wave; the yang, the light swirl, represents brightness, passibon and growth and is also the masculine color.

Either way, if I discovered that this person is a priest and he is wearing robes with a Taoist symbol all over them, I'm gonna guess that this priest is a Taoist Priest.

Likewise, if onyx is a gemstone of Shar, and a cleric is wearing armor that has these gemstones, and she is also carrying around a spell focus holy symbol with an onyx at the center, if I make a Religion roll and know that onyx = Shar, I'd probably make the connection. At the very least, the player should be informed, if you make the Religion check, who shar is and that onyx usually represents Shar so the player can make the connection right away.

Unless... again... they really want to do some big Shadowheart reveal to those who, for some reason, don't know she's a Cleric of Shar, since by now unless you know nothing about the game you should know she is one... and if that's what they're going for, a Big Shar Reveal, then they REALLY REALLY shouldn't put her in Dark Justiciar armor with big onyx stones all over it.

I'm just saying. I see Yin Yang... I know you're a priest... doesn't take much to put that together as priest of Taoism, since I know about Taoism and the Yin Yang symbol. However, if there is a person who just knows it as a Chinese symbol, they may not put two and two together.

So, again, I"m just asking for a Religion check. If the character rolls success, they know it's typically a Shar stone. If fail, they know nothing.

Either that ... or its just they way people think about them, but that seems irellevant anyway.
The question here is not how the stone was created ... but how it is used.

So lets say you are right ... just for the sake of arguments.
Shar walks, onyx is created ... what exactly stops any non-sharite to pick the onyx up, prefferably few dozen of sencuries later, and make a jewel out of it?

I never heard about Yin Yang material ... O_o
Is that some kind of stone? Is that some kind of fabrick? Is that some kind of ore?

No ... its just different shape, just as the cross was ...
So again:
As Captain America would say: I can do this all day.
And you know it, so please at least try to make an expression you actualy read it at least once. :-/

I can use different example if you like ... some you were using in the past, so you should understand it better:

Settlement = Water ... Water =/= Settlement
A = B =/> B=A

Same rule works here:
Shar = Onyx ... Onyx =/= Shar
A = B =/> B=A

But you are not recognizing symbol ... you are recognizing just a f*cking stone!

I mean yes, it would be possible if Narator would say something like:
"That stone looks like and Onyx ... they are often used by worshippers of Shar, but you cant say for sure that is the reason she is wearing them."

And even that would need to be used only after you pass your Investigation check to even determine that stone is a f*cking Onyx.

Does she?
Wich one?
Her crown, or circlet, or w/e you want to call it?
Then she would be unable to cast once you unequip it ... she isnt. O_o

When you say "big onyx stones all over it" ...
Wich one are you talking about?

Since the only stone i can clearly see is that one on her forehead ...
2cm top, that is hardly big, nor all over ...

And yes, there is that black part of her armor ... not even sure that is Onyx, by the way ...
That one is indeed quite big, well more like medium but w/e ... but all over? O_o

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But once again i repeat that i still believe that she should use Discuise Self on herself ...
She do know the spell, its allways prepared even, and she even have scroll with it. :-/ What more do we need?

You know. You really love this game. It's commendable. You really fight tooth and nail to try to keep even little things from being considered.

That said, I'm gonna try one more time.

You seem to be getting hung up on nuances and little things. A symbol is a symbol. If it was established that a ruby was a symbol of the Muslim faith, and you saw a priest with rubies on his shoulders, a big circle on his chest that looked like a ruby with a design on it, and a ruby at the very center of his forehead on a circlet, and if you knew that in order for a Muslim priest to actually be able to bless someone that he would have to have a holy symbol on him (because that's ESTABLISHED D&D FORGOTTEN REALMS LORE) then chances are you'd likely assume that the priest was a Muslim Priest.

Here's a real world example. Jade. It is firmly established that jade is symbolic of nobility and wealth in Oriental cultures. It is known as the "Gem Supreme" and the "Jewel of Heaven" and the "Stone of the Heart." Green Jade symbolized the Five Virtues of Humanity in Chinese tradition. The Jade Emperor in Chinese culture was one of the representations of the first god.

So, a person in ancient China sees a priest with jade stones on their shoulders, a jade circle on their chest that takes up about a foot diameter on their chest, AND he wears a jade stone on a circlet on his forehead. The priest even makes it clear he's a priest. Hmmm. What is he a priest of? Or... um... is he just wearing jade as jewelry? Did he just think it was pretty and put it on his clothes because it looks nice? Or... maybe... just maybe... if you succeeded in a Religion check, meaning you actually knew something about the Jade Emperor, wouldn't you then draw a connection to the Jade Emperor because you saw this guy, who you know is a priest mind you, wearing not 1, not 2, but 3 jade stones on his outfit, one on his forehead, and a big jade circle with a symbol of some kind on his chest? Jade, a stone, was commonly known in China in those days as symbolic of the Jade Emperor and of heaven. Many nobles and emperors of ancient China wore jade BECAUSE it was symbolic of heaven, and they wanted their peasants to believe that they were granted authority and power by heaven to rule over the "lesser" peoples of the world.

As for Shar walking and onyx being created, you're missing my point. I don't think the description Larian gives us in this regard is literal. The point is that even Larian is pointing out that an onyx stone is symbolic of Shar. In their description, they are telling us that onyx = Shar. So, if we know this just because it's in a random description somewhere, shouldn't our characters be given the opportunity to point it out immediately if they succeed in a Religion check? I mean, it's in the description of an onyx stone that onyx is a symbol of Shar. How can you refute that? Pull it open. Read the description yourself in the game. It relates onyx to Shar. And if it relates onyx to Shar, then if someone is a cleric and they are wearing onyx stones in their armor set, you should have the ability in the game to call Shadowheart on it. Even the look of the armor is constantly thrown in your face from the Grove murals all the way throughout Grymforge. Dark Justiciar armor with onyx stones as large as life all throughout the armor proves that Shadowheart's armor is Dark Justiciar armor.

So, let's say you create a Sage background character who is also a Wizard with high intelligence, so your Religion/History skills are high - like +5 or +6 at level 1. Shouldn't this type of character, who might have actually studied up on Sharran culture, armor, weapons, history, etc. have a shot, at least, of knowing, right away, that Shadowheart is a Sharran cleric? And wouldn't that also be true for the DEFAULT Tav character build who is a cleric of Selune who should know a great deal about Shar since Shar is her religion's ARCH-NEMESIS?

So please don't be so flippant with your $#@$$ stone comments, thank you. Those kinds of comments are just you trying to instigate fighting and debating. Please stop. I'm done with that kinda stuff. Stuff like that is why I ignored you before a couple of times now. It's really not necessary.

And yes, EVERY cleric in established Forgotten Realms and D&D lore is supposed to have a bloody, blinking holy symbol that they carry on them which enables them to cast their divine spells. This is not DOS or Dragon Age or I don't even know (do they have holy symbol requirements???) Without a symbol of Shar, she shouldn't be able to cast spells at all. So, when I see a circlet on her head, and I see no other holy symbol at all that could even potentially be being used by her, I'm assuming that in her initial character design, someone knew D&D well enough to know that she needed a symbol of Shar somewhere on her outfit for her to be able to cast cleric spells. Which then means that logically speaking it IS her holy symbol. It certainly isn't her mace or wooden shield or leather boots. It's either the onyx stones on her pauldrons or her circlet. So, yes, she has a holy symbol on her as big as day on her forehead. Your argument that you can remove the circlet and still cast spells is only valid because Larian is currently, in the game presently, ignoring established Forgotten Realms/ D&D Lore.

So, to be clear, if you look at her armor, she has 1 onyx stone on her forehead, and one on each pauldron (shoulder). Biggest ones are on the shoulders. Those could probably be used as golf balls.

And finally, as far as Disguise Self spell, yes, IF she started the game with that spell cast already, then she wouldn't LOOK like a Dark Justiciar. THEN a Religion/History check would logically not be needed UNTIL she lost concentration and the spell ended. Thus, when you see her for the first time lying unconscious on the beach, she'd be in full Dark Justiciar armor and THEN a skill check should be made because you can then see the armor as clear as day with onyx stones shimmering in the early morning light... or not, as the case may be.

Fact: The ONLY items that could be holy symbols on her are onyx stones.

Fact: She has 3 onyx stones on her gear.

Fact: She's of the Trickery Domain.

So, if I'm a brand new player who knows absolute jack poop about Forgotten Realms and I know nothing about Shar or her symbols or anything, shouldn't I be given the common courtesy of at least a skill check so that should I succeed I might learn something about this BG3 major deity and how Shadowheart is dressed like a cleric of said major deity so that by the time I get to her BIG REVEAL I don't feel like a total idiot moron who has no idea at all who Shar is and only AFTER I get to maybe Grymforge do I start to fully grasp the reality that she is some super nasty evil dark goddess of wickedness who has instructed her servants to murder and torment and kidnap countless untold numbers of people? Shouldn't I, if I succeed in said roll, have the ability to immediately make the decision, "Do I keep this crazy chick in my party who is a servant of such an evil deity, or do I kick her to the curb? I mean, I'm all alone out here. I probably need her to survive, but SHOULD I risk it?"

This is my point.

And now, I am done. Thank you and good night.

From someone who hates this game so much so he fight tooth and nail to try to force even little things to change ...

I take this completely wrong and irellevant observation as a compliment.

Yup, and material is a material.
Glad to see we are geting somewhere.

And once that person would take all those Ruby off, and still would be able to bless me ...
What does it tell me?
That those are clearly his holy symbols he desperately needed to do his blessing? O_o

Well, i have different outcome. :-/

And by the way ...
I just noticed i thing i have finaly found an error in your example ...

When i show you 3 males, all of them would have Ruby on their forehead ... on their chestplate ... and on their shoulders (even tho i didnt notice that one on Shadowheart) ...
And i would tell you that one of them is a priest.
How would you know wich one it is?

That is my point, there is no way to tell if Shadowheart is wearing them bcs she is worshiping Shar, or bcs she simply have bad taste for jewelery, unless you ask her.

Yes you are able to by Investigation roll determine that the stone on her forehead is an Onyx ... THEN and ONLY THEN you might be potentialy able by Religion roll determine that Onyxes are often used by worshipers of Shar ...
BUT still, there is no way you would be determine by simple roll if that is the reason she is wearing it.

Cute ...
Let me quote someone you should understand:

"It is firmly established that jade is symbolic of nobility and wealth in Oriental cultures."

Conclusion: That person is wealthy and noble ...
Therefore he is wearing a jade, no deity included.

A=B =/> B=A

Being a Sharite means wearing an Onyx ...
Weering an Onyx does not being a Sharite.

I litteraly cant say it simplier.

I not refuting anything, whatever that means ...
Im only pointing out that there is at least one more way to connect the dots.

I wonder why are you resisting so hardly ...
Yes i know, we as a players are aware that she is a Sharite, but our characters are not.

Eh ... no? It isnt.
Until you reach the Grymforge, there is litteraly nothing to compare her armor with ...

It would be like wawing with a flag with a symbol on it (i dunno, for example jumping red wolf on black field) before you face for few hours (days in game time) ...
And then reveal to you that this symbol is used by local Nazi group, since swastika is forbidden.
That does not mean that you had Swastika before your eyes this whole time ... it only means that you never know until now how is this used.

You know you dont need to be Wizard to have high Intelligence score?

And yes, such purposely created characters should be suspicious.
They still should not know, tho. :P Maybe after some mind probing.

Well, since we are so rudely honest with each other ...
This kind of coments make me glad you did.

And im certain it would not take long until you shall once again, since well ... you dont show any signs of different behaviour compared to the past.

I wonder if you feel like winner, if you refuse to listen to anything that dont fit to your concepts. O_o
It must be horribly lonely. :-/

No ...
There is no Divine magic in Dragon Age at all.

Since she is the only cleric in game, who needs this (as far as i know Tav doesnt have any holy symbol, Minthara doesnt have any Holy symbol, Goblins have no Holy Symbols, and Duergars neither) ...
And since you can easily take that item off, an her ability to cast remain unchanged ...
And since you can then put the same thing on your Selunite Cleric and nothin happens ...

Dont you think that this is one of those rules that "dont translate well into video game" ?

Your Tav have X-ray sight? O_o




Since no matter how much i look, i litteraly dont see any on those shoulders ... not a golf balls size, not even a rainbow balls size.

Source?
(And im not talking about rules ... i ask how your character know this)

I mean for your characters, yes ... there are some black stones on her gear ...
Thats practicaly it.

Hey Lae'zel have Rubies on her armor, is Ruby therefore Vlaakith stone?
Is she secretly Cleric of Vlaakith?
Is Vlaakith giving her clerics different kind of power, that would give them inhuman strength, compared to amount of muscles they have should barely keep their body together?

Source?
(And im not talking about rules ... i ask how your character know this)

2 ...
As far as i know.

And ... i presume you guessed it ... Source?
(And im not talking about rules ... i ask how your character know this)

I dare to presume this should not require futher comentary.

Right now i honestly wonder if you know that you can get all those informations from any books about Shar, that lies litteraly on every corner.

If rest of your party is Gith, Vampire and Werewolf ...
Some evil deity is least of your problems.

Sigh. I was literally complimenting you, and you choose to constantly insult me. I was literally saying I commend you for your love of the game.

And I don't know how many times I can say I love this game but you are convinced I hate it.

So, I call this yet another pointless attempt to have a decent Convo with you. All you want to do is be mean and debate things until you feel you are the winner.

So, with respect, I've made my points. They are valid. I know they are. Whether you think they are or not, it matters little.

If a player is role-playing a character that has an interest in religions...
If the player's character was raised around followers of Shar...
If the player's character is a follower of Shar...

It would be reasonable for that character to see the onyx and, inevitably, associated it with Shar. This could prompt such a person to think, or even to ask, "is the onyx a show of fashion or of faith?" Does the player's character hate Shar or praise her?

+1 for the choice.

I do.
Aproximately same amount of times as i told you that this:
Is nonsemce.

But you simply "know its truth" ... even in cases when it isnt.
Wich is much more often than you would believe.

That's because you are looking at outdated screenshots. The shoulder gems has been coloured for several patches now (at least since the one we got during summer). It also matches her character art.

Indeed? Well i admit i didnt start the game to check.
Okey, my misstake at least in this one. Thank you for saying ... it was quite helpfull. ^_^

So, back to the topic, her armor is almost an exact replica of dark justicer armor, she is wearing onyx stones which symbolize her goddess, she casts spells without any other item as a holy symbol spell focus, and she is of the trickery domain. Everything about her from the very beginning screams, "I am a cleric of Shar,"and if you are a player who knows nothing about the setting or the deities, you will be completely clueless to this. Only if you know the setting and the deities would you pick up on this.

So, logically speaking, there should be a religion check or a history check so that the game can determine whether or not your character picks up on all the obvious clues that she is a cleric of Shar. And if character picks up on it, the game should tell the player who Shar is so that the new player who knows nothing about the setting isn't left in the dark. Pun intended. 😁

But if the intention is to have some big reveal later in the game, then she needs to be more subtle with less obvious armor. She needs to have some other holy symbol on her making it seem like she is a cleric of some other god or goddess.

Everyone is so complicated about the Onyx Stone.

The simple answer can be that those stones are added for lore reasons.
So for game purposes, everywhere you find an Onyx Stone where normally its not expected, it serves as a breadcrump, a hint that something or someone has to do biusiness with SHAR or its a hint that the mentioned Party of Shadowheart (all are dead by now, as she tells us) left some clues to follow.
Those Stones can also be somekind of special payment for Shar supporters, which maybe they can change at their temple for another reward.
Or its just the way like secret Handsigns like from Moles Thieveguild.
Stones to show someone is a supporter of Shar.

Theres so many possibilities to give meaning to those stones.
But games normaly do not think too much around corners, it must be something simple, easy to comprehend.

My best guess:
Onyx Stones = breadcrumbs leading to part of story, like parts of puzzlepieces in a bigger story

I have thought about this at length.

What if SH was dead IN her Dark Justiciar armor from 1371, and she has lost her memories, not even realizing she's toting something obviously Sharran?

Still. Others should recognize it, especially Halsin who fought against people wearing almost identical armor.

Halsin should recognise it, but Larian (who proclaimed themselves our DM) will say that he ignored it because a single armour doesn't actually mean much. Our party could have simply found that armour during our travels, didn't recognise its origins and gave it to SH, purely by accident.
After all, if you manage to kill Gith patrol and dress your party in their armours, nobody asks you whether you are working for Giths.

However, if our entire party would be dressed in these while brandishing the same dismissive faces and goth snowflake attitude, now that would be a completely different matter. At least it should be for Halsin.