Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback How to make combat more engaging?

Hi guys

Just finishing my first playthrough for EA, and while I'm really excited about the potential I can see, so far am just finding the combat a bit bland compared to BG2 or DOS1/2.

The main issues as I see them (which others have raised before):

- At least at the current level cap, it doesn't really feel like different character classes feel very different. You have a general division between spellcasters and melee, both of which will just spam their 1-2 different attacks round after round. I seem to remember DOS2 did a great job of making melee fighters feel interesting by giving them a wide variety different attack types that could cause different status effects. At the moment I can't really say there's any meaningful different between how I play a wizard character or a cleric, especially since all classes can pretty much use all items.
Potential fix: Give different classes more different unique abilities that really highlight their unique role in the party.
- Even worse, I can't say that the different fights really call for much creativity in how I set up and deploy my abilities/attacks. Just spamming those same standard attacks and then mixing in the odd shove/push seems to cover me in most cases. The Goblin camp fight was a huge chore in this regard - at level 4 I never felt remotely in danger, it was just a boring grind of low-level mobs.
Potential fix: A bit more variety in abilities between enemies where possible, or else adding a few more different types of enemies in groups.
- The frequent missing is a definite issue, and I'm struggling to come to grips with why I'm finding it so much frustrating here than in other similar games. I fully understand why this makes sense in the context of 5e rules, but from a gameplay enjoyment perspective it's a definite negative.
Potential fix: Tricky one! When trying to balance higher hit % and HP bloat I would probably rather have higher HP and higher hit rates than the other way around. I've seen others complain about what is already a relatively bloated HP context, but don't see any other solution. I think that more combat animations could be quite helpful as someone else pointed out.

Some positive points (not really related to the combat):

- Game looks great already, though am playing on Stadia so definitely noticing some issues. The underdark is really something to behold!
- The quests have been quite fun overall and I do feel like I'm given a variety of interesting choices on how to approach many of them.
- The fast travel system works for me, I really enjoy not having to spend so much time covering the same ground again and again.

Anyway just my two cents, will keep playing and looking forward to seeing how this evolves!

I get you, feeling kinda the same.
- Classes probably will feel more different once we hit higher levels but even considering that, they should be tweaked a little to feel more different at low levels as well, and i agree probably reason they feel samish is because generic actions can be used in a similar manner by all of them (scrolls, jump, shove). also, though it might be just me but i also felt given everybody is able to do the special attacks provided by weapons (pin down for example with bow) that also make every char the samish a little bit? i think these weapon skills are a good idea in general but im not sure if i like that everyone has access to these by default?
- Melee chars indeed could use some variety in actions to keep it more interesting, when in tabletop we play and somebody is a fighter they dont just attack but sometimes do some extra stuff (try to knock down, hold, unarm enemies, even to climb on huge monsters). Again, i know fighter gets more special actions and manouvers like these at higher levels in dnd5e, but maybe there is something they can add? I saw some good ideas shared on this forums already
- about missing. they are working on a loaded dice mode as far as i heard but setting that aside: it would be nice to have more ways to buff attack chance before fights. There is a couple of skills already, i expect potions be another way, i wouldn't mind to see mood factors (after a delicious meal or a good song by the campfire all members receive +1, something like Astarion's happy bonus) and then a better tutorial to explain how these chances can be increased. Maybe there is a lot more ways already im not familiar with, it just needs to be highlighted more by the game
- and again i agree, some battle scenarios also feel the same, besides tweaking the action economy as mentioned earlier they can make interesting and diverse AI behaviours based on the enemy's intelligence so they can either attack in group/attack strongest or weakest char or even downed ones first, try to protect their leader, lure players into a trap, or run to ring the alarm etc. also i think if enemies in later acts could have more vulnerabilites and resistances to bludgeon, piercing, slashing attacks and elements, spells it would also spice things up.

I also agree on almost all of the positive points, though im not a fan of the i can fast travel to anywhere anytime, i see why most people prefer that.
Just my 2 cents, im pretty sure Larian listens to feedback and will make meaningful changes to combat, im looking forward to see how much they are willing to tweak though, i have the feeling that we will find out in the upcoming patches!

Another thing came to my mind regarding missing often: this can be eased with a Graze mechanic maybe where if its not a radical miss the character still makes some damage (so infinite battles where both sides keep missing has reduced chance to happen). also some games have an optional easier attack action next to standard attack where damage is less but you have a bonus on attack chance, similar thing basically.
Im curious what Larian will come up with eventually

Not to be dismissive, but you could summarize half of that post with "It's D&D and I don't like it" and the following suggestions with "Make it NOT D&D".

It's not entirely without merits, since the low level range is notoriously where D&D is typically struggling a bit to warm up, before getting genuinely fun from level 5 going on... But still, "Give new cool powers to every class" is not the most sensible suggestion when it comes to a game based on a pre-existing and well-established ruleset.

I guess the feeling that classes are all played the same comes from the homebrewed rules.

- Dipping, shove, hide, disengage and jump are probably the most common bonus actions. They're available for everyone at each turn and they're usually very powerfull.
In D&D bonus actions are special. In BG3 they're common and powerfull.

- Higherground and backstab are the only situation you try to reach because that's what we have to do... That's the easiest and cheaper solution to have a powerfull advantage. Why should we use a spellslot or an action ? Flanking is not implemented to increase the synergy between melee character, neither is shove to prone, neither is help.

- On the other hand, everyone can rez, use scrolls, potions, eat during combats, use fire or poison things (arrows, potions,...)...

A few month ago our dear DM said that they want to give us many choices... it's sucessful on many points but in combats : it's a failure.

D&D has many choices (and many aren't implemented) but if a few mechanics are too powerfull, it is not choices anymore. If everyone can do any powerfull things... This is not meaningfull choices anymore.

All those things are common and the difficulty is balanced arround them. It's not choices : it's how you have to play BG3.

=> More actions would lead to more variety and more situations (ready, dodge, a better implementation of help, why not delay turn, grap, shove to prone...).

=> Less (powerfull) bonus actions would lead to more meaningfull choices and a better implementation of bonus actions would lead to more specialized classes in their role (i.e rogue,...)

=> Less OP items, less potions of everything, less scrolls and scrolls only available for casters, ... Would lead to a difficulty more balanced arround D&D and to more specialized classes (casters are casters, battle masters are battle masters,...).

I'm not sure anyone could say that every classes are the same in Solasta because they aren't... even at level 1-4.

Sorry to talk about it again but this is the only available game that use 5th edition. I'm nearly sure OP wouldn't ask "more things" for classes if BG3 was balanced arround D&D instead of all those homebrewed.

Maybe he would ask for more actions / round as many players ? That's exactly what you have playing with an increased party size.

The layer added by Larian above D&D is nearly 100% what define combats in BG3. And I guess that's what could give the feeling of repetitivity because this layer is very limited and is far from being complex.

Solasta has got the combat gameplay right.
BG3 feels archaic compared to it.
No shame in borrowing great ideas.

I agree on this, but I think main reason why DoS is more interesting here is due to possibility to do multiple actions ( even attack actions ) in one turn, which itself give more room for tactical decisions. Many useful actions ( enrage, haste, teleport) can be used instead of one attack, and you still get 2-3 attacks. But that require departure from DnD rules, and I doubt it is easy to implement

I agree, and I posted suggestion how this could be solved fairly easy, without any impact on 5e rules ( ie, AC and modifiers will have exactly same effects )

Will there be an update that allows me to wield a fist in main hand? I understand it is not currently ideal or advantageous, but i hope we can enjoy an opportunity to witness the potential ad/dis vantage at play. Certain spells ex. Summon flame could be stackable on unarm damage and i think that would be fun flavor to spice up combat. I wonder if having a fist or shield equipped should effect whether shove is a bonus action too. Warriors and certain martial classes might be more entertaining in combat if they had more weapon specific abilities that refresh when a new battle begins rather than after a short rest.

Please consider making light hammers and a martial club as part of the finesse category, so a rogue does not feel damned by the confines of dex based damage and utility. A murder is not always less arduous or tedious than a ko and i would appreciate a notable difference of outcome where it should matter.

Some nuances of turn order and how it is determined might be better explained to people that are new to the game. In my experience it is typically best to seperate party and sneak into combat with best dex character to preemptively attack and start initiative. Before ending turn introduce each member to combat with either range combat or manuever into melee. This is also the ideal moment to use enviorment as advantage since in my experience there is a bug where using environmental damage does not always start combat and all damage caused will be healed promptly if combat is not begun prior.

I think Characters Personality should change when their lvl grows, so the combat feels different too. They are growing from these homeboys, to real heroes. Turn based combat is quite hard to make engaging. Music could be one way too.

Or then something like when the battle start, You pick your Leader and the "feel of the combat" comes from him/her. Bulky Dwarf Warrior should be much different than some nimble Elf Girl for example.

XCOM2 had fun combat, but they spend tons of time designing it, Larian seems to be focusing more on other things.

In a way. All the suggestions you make is surface presentation stuff - something that can make mechanically dull action game work, but I doubt it will help turn based game much.

TB spotlights mechanics and decision-making, and key to making TB work is nailing the gameplay. Larian presents players with a rich amount of choice but it fails hard in offering players interesting choices - combat is too unbalanced, classes made too homogenous. DnD isn't a top shelf gameplay experience to begin with, and BG3 is much worse then that thanks to Larians changes.

Real-time nature and lack of feedback in BG1&2 made shallow underlying mechanics easier to glance over. BG3 doesn't have that luxury.

Two questions:

1) What?
2) What have Character Personality to do with combat? O_o

^This right here says it all about why D&D and TB combat are actually NOT complementary. Thye problem is not so much the TB combat itself (which I admittedly dislike). The problem is the boring nature of the underlying mechanics, and especially combat mechanics, of D&D.

One thing which would make the combat more entertaining to watch would be that characters in melee should exchange blows with the enemy while waiting their turn. Like some blades clashing against each other and some shields bashed heavily with axes. We could imagine as well archers shooting arrows on the floor or on shields etc. It would look more like a proper battle.

I think you nailed it here. The moment i heard of the kind of strict D&D rule implementation i knew exactly how it would play out even without seeing anything of the game.
But i think Larian cant do much about that. So they need to continue their way of trying to implement little things to make it more interesting. The weapon change which was introduced the last patch are such things i guess.

And to be honest the system isnt that bad, at least better then i thought it would be. If its 3/4 the fun of the DOS2 system it will still be a good game with maybe a bit less focus on the combat.
Is it already at 3/4 of the DOS2 combat ? I dont know but its definetly not that far from it

They could have "battle personality" when they step into a combat, extra "spicy-ness" comes out of them. Making the battle feel more engaging and immersive.

It should help quite much actually. You've 6 Characters who each feels different in Combat. You can battle 6 times if you use them all one time. How many battles DOS2 had? 50? 100? There gotta be good solution, giving them more variation.

Im pretty sure BG3's combat is gonna be more or less a mess, theres so many builds/items/races/multi-classing etc. We cant get Xcom2. Btw, this is the reason why Larian should give players a battle generator to design battles.

If Battle Personalities doesnt do the trick, throw some different kind of Music to each Leader too, So that should most definitely do the trick. Something Melodic stuff for Sorcerers and Wizards and more Rhythmic Battles stuff for Warriors. etc.

Larian's style is ALL about "smoke and mirrors" isnt that quite clear. So if you are gonna do smoke and mirrors, give some extra love for Characters. Thats where Im coming from. I could do Narrator and Characters the best way I ever could. I might even bring Narrator to the battles, sometimes Narrator gets crazy and throws something on enemies or player. Lets say you've an easy battle ahead of you, but in the middle of the battle, Narrator sends Giant to the battle.

I still have no idea what are you talking about ...

Like while Lae'zel would be yelling "for Vlaakith" while cuting her enemies head off ...
Karlach would be yelling "Zariel will not get me" while cuting her enemies head off ...

Is that the big change?

It depends on how big change you want to make. Usually means how much money you are willing to throw at it. CRPG are interesting as you've multiple character. I would take an advantage of it. Normal Single Playing RPGs can not do it. Imho, my idea is excellent for CRPG devs. In Skyrim and Witcher, you have this one dude, not much you can do with it. Or if you want to do things bad, go with AC Valhalla style.

I think Larian is quite foolish if they dont take my idea, to be honest. My idea even has a bit of "tabletop" vibe in it. Sure they are still more Actors than Kids/Adults at table.

@GreatWarriox You should probably give exemples because TBH I really don't understand what your suggestion is.

Go sit in Library and then go to Street Fight, you can test it yourself. Or then find some shy teenager girl and after that try some wild busty MILF. Then come to me and tell about "engaging".

Battle Personalities should help a TON game like DOS2 or BG3. Sure it takes time to create like 6 of them for each Main Character. But if you think how long the story itself is, not so big job.