Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Slings and Darts ultimately unavailable as weapons?

Was going to start a new run and noticed a small but potentially bummer-y detail: Sorcerers (the latest class to have been added) are missing their Sling and Dart proficiencies they're supposed to have according to the rules, while Druids (added prior) and Wizards (there from the start) have them. The question that arises is: were the proficiencies on the druid and the wizard a placeholder - making it seem like we aren't getting those weapons in the end - or were they just not added to the sorcerer because the game doesn't have those weapons yet?

Honestly, given how magical ammo is implemented in the game (D:OS-style rare arrows that work for both bows and crossbows and are more about utility than extra damage), unless there's going to be a big revamp of the the whole mechanic (separate ammunition types, finite regular ammo) in the future, it's very unlikely that there will be a whole third weapon type for which there needs to be a different kind of missiles (having slings launch arrows will be incredibly dumb). Plus, I don't think there were any datamined models found for either slings or darts, although if Grymforge is anything to go by, there isn't quite everything equipment-related in the files just yet.

On one hand, almost every weapon type that exists in BG3 were weapon types that previously existed in DOS2. Those that aren't are more or less slightly modified versions of those that are.

Adding in new ranged weapon types like slings and darts would probably take a bit more resources than usual, and then there's also the question of what benefit they'd ultimately add to the game. From the most pragmatic standpoint possible... Not very much. You'd also eventually have to come up with unique weapons of those types, and then that brings up the issue of whether it's better to give those effects to already existing weapon types rather than risk the community not using said unique weapon(s) at all, simply because they aren't part of a weapon type that the characters specialize in.

Plus, as you've said, special arrows exist. Any new ranged weapon type is going to need something to match the ability to use special arrows. I wouldn't be surprised if javelins also don't make it in based on this principle alone, even though they're arguably the signature ranged weapon of Paladins.

Sorcerers missing those proficiencies reads a lot more like Larian deciding not to add them into the game, in the end.

I suppose my counter question would be, why is this more resource/effort/value for Larian than it's been of every other company that's ever made a D&D rpg? Why do they get a pass on this kind of stuff, because it's 'more effort'?

They don't, at least not in my book.

The benefit is the benefit it always is - and it's not a strictly mechanical one, but one of a feeling of completeness, of options, of freedom to choose and freedom to characterise - things which matter more n this type of game than most. Larian doesn't get a pass on that because it doesn't match the specs of what they can hack together or modify from the specs of their old game engine. At least, they don't for me.



Unfortunately, I do feel you're right. Biting off more than they can chew, over-promising and then under-delivering, is one of Larian's strongest hallmarks of game-design at this point. This game deserves better.

I hate to say it, but it's not an option to leave out strength based ranged weapons, i.e. thrown weapons. Strength-based warriors need javelins, ideally hand-axes and slings as well due to physical resistances that might pop up.

I mean, from what I understand throwing stuff is rather powerful. It's just in BG3 one is throwing armors instead of javelins

Yeah, I'm largely in agreement, though I didn't feel like wording it this way as it's a rather exhausting argument, so to speak.

Although I had forgotten that there are supposed to be strength-based ranged weapons. Yeah, at least one of them is going to have to be added in for that reason alone.

But then that wraps back around to the issue of special arrows existing, which is... Yeah. Even Pathfinder for all its options had the vast majority of players default to using crossbows and bows, because of things like special quivers and feats that only worked with bows and/or some ranged weapons like sling staves had a feat tax in requiring exotic weapon proficiency. Although throwing axes were considered the best ranged option in WotR for a specific companion.

They give our characters option to fight when regular way is not possible for some reason.

For example Druid ...
Druid Cantrips have only 8m range in BG-3.
Druids are profficient with: clubs, daggers, darts, javelins, maces, quarterstaffs, scimitars, sickles, slings, spears

Meaning if you cant use Cantrip and dont want to spend your spellslot, your druid is litteraly useless unless Slings, Darts, or Javelins are implemented.

That is pure pragmatic reason ...
Then there are others, sometimes coventient excuses, like: immersion, freedom of choice, and also options ... players usualy love to have options.

I dont think there needs to be some huge mechanic rewamp, or special amunition type for every single weapon ...
If they would keep arrows as they are now (wich i hope they dont, even tho i probably hope for different changes) it only means that if you will be using Slingshot, Blowguns, or Darts, you will not use those arrows, nothing more.

I cam quite easily imagine that Darts will work like yet another throwing weapons, just like bombs, smokepowder satchels, or the vial of some fluid ...

Then all Larian need to do is reduce range for throwing (of everything except those Darts) by half for example, wich they should do in my opinion anyway ... and implement Sling as item that double your throwing range (again, except Darts, yes im aware it would mean that you would be able to shoot your boots through it, but i dont think its necesarily wrong).

Im trying to say that let us not make premature conclusions.
Either that, Druids and Wizard had this profifiency was just a placeholder ...
Or that Sorceres dont have them is just oversight ...
Chances in my opinion are 50/50.

Javelins are technically in the game with ogres throwing them, though they do it via a separately-implemented action. Slings not being in the game would mean that most weapon-based ranged attacks against enemies like skeletons and golems would either be half as effective or absolutely useless.

I mean, a +1/+2/+x version of a weapon is already something. We have every kind of martial melee weapon available but only a few types have unique magic versions at this point (there isn't a single unique scimitar, for example, despite it being a staple for a dual-wielding martial class). It's certainly already better than Solasta in this regard, where certain weapon types are either obsolete (handaxes, clubs, spears) or non-existent (most of the martial melee list, slings as well).

I don't know how the pipeline for adding new items looks on Larian's end (my personal gold standard for this kind of thing is how NWN did it, where you just open the editor and use wizards to create child versions of base items, like a unique halberd, or a new type of ammunition), but considering how many mods have already appeared that add new gear, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I suppose a simpler (if corner-cutting) solution would be to rename all the arrows as "missile". Making them a "missile of fire", a "missile of darkness", and so on, with a vague icon. It magically becomes an arrow when shot from a bow, a bolt if shot from a crossbow, or a bullet if shot from a sling. Problem (kinda) solved, but it's still underwhelming in a way. Ranged weapons do have the ammunition property on them, but right now it's just a meaningless tag, since we have no quivers, and managing ammo outside of special arrows is definitely a mechanic that's noticeably absent. I don't really want to see it go in the name of the casual player's convenience.

Personaly i would hate such solution ... :-/
It would seem just as weird and unimmersive as firing arrows by sling.

What about racial proficiencies? Does Druid, for example, turn them off? Because an Elven Druid would have Elven weapon profs to work with too.

Not that slings and other throwing weapons should be excluded, mind, I'm looking at "options".

NO it does not turn them off ...

I just (naively) hoped it will be clear that i didnt want to write that this only apply when your Druid is: Dragonborn, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, Half-Orc, Human, Tiefling, or Gith ... aka litteraly everything except elves. -_-

I only picked Elf here because it was obvious that they'd get bows. I'm reasonably sure that, as the game gets fleshed out, and throwers of various types get added, hopefully, that even more options will open up. I will likely do an Arcane Archer knockoff build, maybe a bard, maybe a wizard/sorc. I'm not sure which, at this point. I might try a Divine Archer too. What I'm not doing, however, is basing my opinion of the finished product, and the company developing it, on what is essentially an Alpha Build. Just because it's not in now doesn't mean it won't be. It also doesn't mean it will be, at which point my thoughts on this will change accordingly, although I do think slings and darts should be added, it's just what my thoughts on the finished product will be.

I'm not even seeing the obstacles raised about special arrows. Bolts, bullets and darts, along with a host of throwing weapons, could be given some of the same properties. I can't be sure how that's handled here, but in NWN, you could choose properties for gear from a rather extensive list in the toolset, when you were designing items for a campaign/module. I would think that a similar system would exist here, but as I said, I can't be sure. At this stage, however, I'd rather wait and see what happens, than throw the game, and the devs under the bus. I'm all for suggesting things that are missing, but I'm not going to assume that they're left out because they're not going to be added, but because they weren't important to the testing of the systems that are in place, in a release that's all about the testing of those systems.

Honestly, even if slings don't make it into the game in the end, the ammo mechanic simply has to change.

Being unable to shoot special arrows outside of using them as consumables a-la D:OS leads to being unable to use them with sneak attacks or other special moves (hamstring shot, horde breaker attack...). We really need a quiver slot even if special arrows remain rare-ish, otherwise their supposed utility remains heavily underused. It wouldn't even upset the balance all that much given how save DCs on them aren't that high, so even if you use arrows of thunder for every occasion you aren't going to dominate every fight by their grace alone.

They both sound epic, especially somekind of Sling of Fire.

It's not a D: OS thing. They were the same in Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 off the top of my head, all games that predate D: OS.

No, all of those had quiver slots which would use your special arrows in those slots just like they would use normal arrows you put in those slots and apply all relevant bonuses, like sneak attack and what else, using your normal attack.

This is the difference people are talking about. In BG3 they function like a whole own kind of ability which is impossible to use with other abilities, such as Battle Master Manoevres or Sneak Attack. Though I would want to research whether bonuses to ranged attacks and your equipped weapon's magical effects still apply before I say they don't, because I don't know if they do it not.

Yep, exactly. All the Infinity Engine / NWN games (and ToEE too) gave you designated quiver slots where you put whatever missiles you want to use with your ranged attacks, rather than make their use a separate move in combat. You could, say, have Manyshot active and use it to spam elemental arrows, which were available in bulk and served as a source of extra damage first and foremost.

In the D:OS (and, by extension, BG3) games elemental arrows are mostly used as a tactical tool rather than a direct boost to your combat potential. Their main use in BG3, apart from the few special ones (thunder, Ilmater), is to create surfaces, because their additional damage is too low / infrequently triggered for how few of them are available for it to be in any way noticeable. While the traditional +x missiles don't seem to exist at all (yet?), so ammunition management isn't really a mechanic in the same way it was always implemented. I am not saying the game should just drown the player in magic ammunition instead of how it's implemented now, but given how crafting would be a thing in the full game, there would definitely be a bigger stock of non-regular ammo available for use, and to be unable to use it with extra attacks, sneak attacks, and maneuvers will be just incorrect from the rules' standpoint.

By the way DOS2 also has its own type of special arrows that you can use with your other attacks. Archers have a skill which works pretty much the same way as "dip" that we have right now. So at least half of the programming is there.

So, Larian, please. We know you can do it, you know you can do it. And you should do it, because otherwise those special arrows are going to become perfectly useless by the second third of the game. I'm already choosing special attacks over them more often than not.

There are darts up to +2 in the files already, I remember someone using one on stream. They just can't be found in the game yet