Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Focused Examination: Intimate Choreography with Small-sized Characters

Before I start I want to disclaim: I don't really care for sexual scenes in games in general (I find them rather cringe-worthy). Owlcat's Pathfinder romance is pretty much exactly where I would draw the golden line, but DoS2 also did a great job considering what they went for, however written/voiced interaction is about as far as I am comfortable with without feeling that it is too much and simply immersion-breaking.

As mentioned before in another thread, regarding sexual scenes in general I hope for a toggle option (primarily for Streamers cause... Well, free commercial for Larian) - but of course I would also be able to simply... Well, tolerate the sexual scenes as I know it is an adult game and as such, contains adult content.

So, to the actual topic. I believe that Larian would be treading on dangerous ground if they start putting racial restrictions for the reasons that you've mentioned. While I personally wouldn't bat an eye as I am used to the standard "This NPC is fine with A, B and C" and "This NPC is fine with A, C and D" - I am very well aware of that there are parts of the audience that would find it distasteful to put restrictions when we are talking about adults and would prefer the full freedom of player sexuality (something that Larian has already gone for and probably won't back away from now)... And, since Larian has already gone for the player-sexual path, then putting up restrictions would be treading away from the very principle. Now, I am going to be very skeptical and assume that the primary concern is not dwarves but halflings, as dwarves have been a established fantasy character across many fantasy universes and I have *never* heard anyone draw the conclusion that there would be any problems between the romance of Tauriel and Kili (The Hobbit movies) or any similar dwarven x non-dwarven relationships.

My primary comment would be that this is really the definition of a "non-issue" as no matter how twisted some people might be - Tav is an adult, whenever they are a halfing, dwarf, elf or tiefling, Tav is ALWAYS an adult. If someone feels the need to twist Tav into a child for pedophilia reason (do note that the BG3 Halflings do not have a body resembling a child's body in any way except for height), then that is not on Larian in any way and these individuals would hardly be affected in any way of halflings being romancable or not. Besides, gaming companies should not assume that their audience are criminals - in fact, doing so would be quite offensive.

Also, if things would turn out the way you fear and people would start running around with "BG3 is fine with sexual content including children cause halflings!" then I would do what I would have done if someone said the same thing, but regarding dwarves/hobbits, and simply roll my eyes at them. That argument is nothing short of stupid and desperate, and those kinds of people will ALWAYS find something to complain about no matter what so there is no use trying to please them.

Finally - imo, the argument in itself (halflings are short = could be kids) is to me as weird as telling people that have a very short spouse (dwarfism or not) that they are pedophiles because of their spouse's height. It is simply distasteful and factually incorrect. Very short individuals, dwarfism or no, are very real and they deserve to be treated like adults regardless of their height. Now IF there would actually be romancable characters that ACTED like children (regardless of which DnD race they'd belong to), THEN I'd have some major concerns (something along the lines of Ember in PF: WotR) - but alas, I don't really see the issue as long as the only concern is the height of the characters. Tav is an adult and acts like an adult - no matter which race the player chooses.

WHAT HAVE MY EYES SEEN???? AAAAH!!!!!

Hmm. I'd argue that in that case you should just be in for the "do not include nude romantic scenes period"-club. Which is fine, I am also sort of a part of it. I don't think sexual RP-simulations is necessary at all regardless of who is included. Sexual content in forms of suggestive dancing while in a bar? Okay, fine I guess. Witnessing sexual content between two NPCs when watching a cutscene? I'll live, np. Suggestive/sexual verbal content? Absolutely, no problem. Stuff like walking in on people in middle of sex? I mean okay, that could happen so why not. But actually roleplaying the sexual encounter between my PC and their love interest? Completely unnecessary imo - but like I said, that is my opinion and there are clearly many that disagree. Which is fine, it is not like I believe my personal opinion on the matter is more valid than those who want it included.

BUT. I have to admit that it sounds really weird to me when you go like "oh yeah no, short races/halflings can totally be romanced no issues there BUUUT if there are sexual scenes then there is an issue cause pedophilia." I don't know man, I just think it is weird to be okay with one but not the other when using your specific angle. If we're gonna argue that there would be a risk of pedophilia and use that as a reason to not include haflings in sex, then that should most definitely include the romance-part in general since you know... Grooming is a thing, and definitely just as frowned upon by society (as it should be as romance is something between adults).

Basically (TL;DR), if you don't think the romantic nude scenes with Tav is necessary period - then sure. I agree. But that has nothing to do with whenever the participating parts are dwarves, halflings, humans or githyankis but rather just that the entire thing is... Not needed, imo. If you are okay with player romance without restrictions BUT think that sexual nude scenes with certain DnD races should be censured because specifically when clothes are off there are sudden "pedophile vibes", then I just can't follow the process of thought at all. Imo, it is weird to be fine with one and not the other, if we play specifically on the pedofile-angle - and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. I just don't get it.

How a character acts and reacts during a sex scene could potentially add some depth to their personality.

ex.: Just think about Garrus being awkward as hell in Mass Effect (it didn't really have a sex scene tho), or Jack being so overwhelmed (and confused) by the emotions that she started crying.

Self-loathing, romanticism, awkwardness, and how deeply they care can all be shown through this.
It can also be used to subvert expectations of sexual stereotypes.

ex.: Imagine a male, massive, muscular, strict, rigid, charismatic dragonborn paladin holyman. Well surprise, he's not only gay, but he's also a bottom. Believe it or not, people would find this spicy.

These are the arguments I found for it. I think people generally know when something is tastefully done. I think what surprised me the most regarding this is: Jaal's gay romance in Mass Effect Andromeda has between 1-2 million views (iirc) on YouTube. Even straights watched it and liked it "if" we can believe the comment section.

I think this whole thing exists because Bioware popularized it. Can Larian do it better tho? I'm not sure if playersexuality helps them or puts them at a disadvantage.

And @Niara - great and detailed feedback as always! I absolutely adore the details of humor in the obvious confused interactions between the medium-sized humanoid and the halfling-sketch. X]

I am going to suspect that this is one of the major reasons why Larian chose to go for the slightly more dwarvish body type for halflings (considering the Halfling feedback tread) and not the 3e (that was the edition where Halflings looked like small scale humans, right?) because the wider hips and pelvis makes it more "realistic" for them to be... "Compatible"(?) even if the receiver is small and the giver is medium.

In any way, I agree with you - adjusting especially medium sized partners to small sized partners (halflings) will require some extra work and creativity. I am going to *assume* that since Larian has decided to go with nude scenes and player-sexual characters that they have done their homework for the final product, even if they might not have made it a priority for EA (I don't know, have not tried it).

Anyways, @those concerned with the FBI - when it comes to this the first thing that pops into my mind is the GW2 "minis" (non-combat mini-characters that follower the player around for purely cosmetic purposes). There are maaaaaaaany miniature adult minis of ingame characters and important NPCs and I assure you - there is NEVER any doubt in ANYONES mind regardless if they are male with or without facial hair, or women with or without big breasts that they are simply rescaled human adults. Children *do not have the same body type as adults. PERIOD.* The height is not enough by a mile to make an adult body into a child's. Add a more mature face, clothes, skin-marks, mature voice actor and maybe some body hair on top of their already mature skeleton and I assure you there will be no problems at all.

On one hand I can't really say I feel particularly invested in the topic of "nailing the sex scenes to perfection", but on the other hand I'm not sure what you are even attempting to argue here.

The game ALREADY allows sexual interactions between members of different races, like it or not, and some of these races may vary considerably in average size/physical structure. So at this point they may as well get the feedback/suggestions to do it properly.

I agree with basically everything you've said Dez, but I want to point out that the Dragon Age series infamously doesn't have any dwarven npc full romance options. There's an oft-cited (and likely taken out of context) quote from a writer: "female dwarves often look like 14 year-old girls."

DAI has a female dwarf NPC that you can flirt with throughout the entire game but that doesn't develop into the typical Bioware romance event. Which I guess is what @Blackheifer may be suggesting: romance but no sex. But then we circle back to it being weird that you can have graphic relations with some npcs but not (certain races of) other npcs...

Wtf are you even going on about by now? o.o At this point it feels like you are just getting mad that I do not share your view, assuming a whole ton of stuff doing so. :|

I already agreed that sexual scenes in general are unnecessary imo, for many reasons - just that I don''t think we need the medium x medium model either. So what are you even nagging that point over? :[

"The attitude" ? I am simply saying that I think your reasoning is odd, disagreeing and/or questioning is not an "attitude". :| If people want to draw a line between halfling and children, then they shouldn't just want to have the sex scenes cancelled but also have the entire romance option gone as well, cause romancing children - sex or no sex - is not okay. I am not sure how I could explain my point any clearer. It is really weird to argue "hafling looks like kids" = romance ok = sex not ok. *If* you seriously wanna compare halfling to children, then you should be against them being romancable by medium sized characters as well. >.< Otherwise you're being very inconsistent.

As for the discomfort some people have been expressing - Niara already addressed that in the post so discussing her particular images is going against her wishes. Besides, the ingame halflings (I trust you actually seen them ingame?) does not look like that. They look more like dwarves, with wider pelivs bones and much larger chests (not just breasts, but entire upper body). More like hobbits. :] And the reason Larian went with that design is most likely because they were afraid people would be of your kind of opinion. :]

"Maybe r/parenting" Ah. Yes. Bring it to the parental forums (that I already engage in, mind you) where they will literally be ready to call the social services if you do not parent your child the *exact* way they do. In *every* aspect. -_- I assure you that if I did, and they decide to view halflings as children, then they will be against romancing them as well - because, grooming is still a thing that is frowned upon in society just as well. And to be fair, that would at least be consistent. :] Though, I already know that the parental forums are swarmed by a giant hive-mind of individuals that step on others to raise their own ego so I wouldn't care much for their opinion to begin with. Maybe you do? That's all on you then. :]

"Pretend like I don't live in a larger community" ? Wtf? O.o Yes I do, and in this community grooming is just as bad as having sexual encounters with children. *thinking* Which is the entire god damn point I been trying to get across all along. q _ q If you make that parallel, then romance should be off the table too. Where I come from, drawing that parallel and being like "romance fine, sex is not" would be highly inappropriate. That is literally my entire point that I been trying to make all along. . _ .

And wtf is the "knocking on your door" supposed to mean? :| That part literally does not even make sense.

And please... "No game, movie or studio has crossed this line" ? Really? REALLY? X'D The entire loli-culture is all over internet. :'] Take a good look at the Steam Store anime department and come back. Although, that is COMPLETELY irrelevant, cause Larian is by no means participating in that. Their halflings look NOTHING like children. They look like small people, to a point where a lot of critics (read the Halfling Feedback discussion thread) says it gets comical and surrealistic. Saying that their height alone is making them look like children is nothing short of insulting to short people. :|

And for the very last time, I don't disagree with the graphic sex scenes being unnecessary. >.< Like I already said multiple times, I don't really see any point in RPing my character's sexual relationships. That's not my thing. But I am pointing out that you're being INCONSISTENT when you're trying to compare halflings to children as an argument to stop *halflings exclusively* from participating in the nudity, but yet for some reason you'd still be 100% fine with them being romancable like any other humanoid creature as long as clothes are on. That is really weird and inconsistent and would definitely not fly in the "bigger community" where I live (that you keep nagging about), which I have tried to say like a million times now. <.<

Anyways. This conversation with you is literally leading nowhere. I have made all of my points as clear as I can in English so if you still don't get it then there is no way we'll be able to converse anyways. And while I am trying to explain my process of thought in a friendly way, you're just getting more hostile with each reply. Have a great evening, happy holidays and a happy new year to you. :]

EDIT: Also, one final thing that I apparently forgot to include. If we're going to pull in r/parents, then we can also ask the r/little people what they think. My point is - depending on which audience you ask, you'll get different answers. I have read plenty of complains from the little people (individuals suffering from dwarfism) minority that they think it is insulting to compare them to children (there are interviews on the matter with a stripper called Tiny Tinxie, I think?). It is all about perspective. In the end, making one part of the audience happy will always displease another one - and Larian will have to chose wisely in this time and age.

Finally, the difference between Larian and Bioware is that Bioware's NPCs has never been player sexual - they always had set orientations. Which is fine, imo. I even prefer it that way as it avoids complications like these ones. But Larian's NPCs are player sexual and *IF* you start excluding people based on racial features WHEN you've already stated your NPCs as player sexual then you're definitely also opening a can of worms. Regardless of where they go from here, Larian is taking a risk. If they put enough effort into not making the smaller races even remotely similar to children (which I personally think they succeeded in), then I believe they'll be safe. Obviously, like I said - I agree that I personally would have other stuff where I'd rather put this money* at (like day and night cycle... More companions... More source books etc). So at this part I agree, but for a different reason.

* This money being the money directed in the animation department for the different kind of nude scenes; because like Niara already showed us - smaller humanoids will definitely require additional work from the regular medium x medium.

I agree. The conversation is looping, and I feel like we're not understanding each other. :[ I've dropped the conversation with my last reply. c:

Besides. NPCs in DA games have never been player sexual, as far as I am aware, so Bioware never really got into *that* part of the discussion. Arguing "well this character have these particular preferences" is much easier than saying "oh, sure our NPCs are player sexual. Why we have no sex scenes with the dwarves? ... We're afraid associating dwarves with children for nudity scenes" as the latter can be really tricky when it comes to the little people community and today's representation ideals in general. :|

EDIT: Besides... Is it not in the Faerûn universe that female dwarves have beard? *thinking* It comes from somewhere and although I do hate it with a passion I do not remember where the trend came from.. . _ .

DA2 companions were playersexual and in that game you still couldn't romance Varric. But yeah with DAI they went all in with the "this character has particular gender- and race-preferences", which helps them to sidestep any potential problem elements. Though 3 consecutive games where there's no dwarven npc with a romance scene is clearly a intentional decision on Bioware's part...

I think it just really comes down to the models. If the models look like children, that's problematic. If the models look like small adults (dwarf-, human-, or other-like), then that's fine honestly. Short does not necessarily mean child.

I think it's a Tolkien thing that female dwarves have beards...?

God what a time to be alive

Hmm... Seems like you're correct! :] DA:O only had male/female limitations for some companions. DA:I had certain limitations (Solas and Cullen), but other than that they were mostly gender-specific yet again. :] I didn't play DA2 (and may or may not have completely forgotten about it's existence... :| Sorry) so dare not comment on that one. My bad!

Well, no point in looping the conversation by repeating myself more than I already have, so I'll leave it at that. :]


100% agree.


Ooooh, you're correct! If I recall it right, all dwarves had beards (or at the very least very bushy sideburns) from early on in Tolkien universe. *thinking* I even remember Aragons comment about it in "The Two Towers" (EE) now when you say it. ... ... *shudders* :|

Hey folks,

I appreciate the support and the kind words, so thanks for that. I'm glad the little bites of humour were appreciated ^.^

I do just want to jump back to an earlier comment – on the topic of physical communication and care; I full get what Zellin is talking about, and though we don't quite agree on the dynamics of it, that's okay; we have different experiences altering our perspectives. What I do want to say is that I've, ah, danced with partners more than two feet taller than me, and partners who, if they just went ham and hammered away at their leisure from the get go would certainly do me a great discomfort or hurt... having a hand close to the scene, or just simply somewhere where they can feel it if you apply pressure, DOES make a heck of a difference. It's about trust and communication though – telling your partner what you need, and what is okay, and what isn't; I can't even talk verbally – using a physical contact point to do that, actively, works just fine. I may not be quite halfling sized, but it really is the same situation here; partners will couple to the extent of their comfort and enjoyment,m and communicate with each other on what those limits are at any given time, and that's just healthy practice... we are assuming consenting agreeable situations here, after all.

If it helps, Zellin: Consider the poses here to be representing the 'tightest in' positions; these are the “how this fits together at maximum” stills, or the deepest point of a full scale of motion. It is entirely likely that if there is a small-sized vagina involved in the coupling, that the actual functional motions might only really utilise the outermost few inches of that scale, and not this full lock-in, at least in most cases or for mos of the scene – pace, rhythm and comfort levels generally increase as the act progresses, after all. Consider also that a lot of the 'final adjustment' suggestions involve positions that deliberately limit how much depth of penetration can be achieved at all – which are ideal poses for smaller partners who want to be in firm control of that.


Dez mentioned the physical models we have right now, and the whys of it... and I do want to answer that, though it's disheartening. Yes: right now, the halfling models that we have have hugely distended hips that are actually the same width and depth as human-sized characters... it's one of the features that leads them too looking like humans with dwarfism, as opposed to natural healthy creatures of their own... and yes... that detail would make a lot of this choreography 'easier' and require fewer adjustments...

But isn't that just upsetting, really? It's the lazy option.... but more than that... if I have to choose between:

A) “Distorted, unrealistic halfling models that have been deformed so that they can fit into existing intimate scenes designed for medium-sized creatures without having to make many changes”

or

B) “Realistic and believable halfling models, who, by their nature, need to consider the positions they use and adapt how they engage with larger-sized partners, so that their intimate scenes actually look fitted to them and acknowledge them as legitimate people worth considering.”

… I want option B. And I really don't feel like that's an unfair or undeserved thing to ask for. I'm tired of the characters I generally prefer to play being cut out of these things, or forgotten about, or not accounted for – tired of them not being options ,being arbitrarily disallowed, or being ignored in the choreography so they clip and don't align in ridiculous ways. I want to have the same full experience that folks playing, or romancing, humans are allowed to have. I don't think that's unfair.

So yeah... you're not wrong, and that may be one other reasons they look like they do right now... but I'm not going to give up on wanting the models fixed, and made to look good. I'm going to keep pushing for that.

==

For the rest,


No. This is what always happens, and I'm so unbelievably sick and tired of it. The developers have decided, already, to put these scenes in the game, for once, and aren't shying away from acknowledging halflings and gnomes as mature consent-capable adults... for once, they're actually making moves to treat all playable races fairly and equally. That's happening, like it or not; so if you're going too complain about animated sex with small-sized characters being problematic, well, get ready to complain hard about BG3 itself, because it's there and it's happening – I'm just here to try to make sure, as best I can, that they do it right, and do it well. I'm not asking anyone to do anything they aren't already doing – just asking them to make sure they do it properly.


These are *Exactly* the sorts of comments and topics that I specifically and politely asked people not to bother with and not to get into, and you've come here and made them anyway, despite my request. If this is your angle, and the way you are looking at this, then this thread is not for you.

I'd ask everyone else not to engage with these comments either. It's not related to this topic, and it's a fictitious, harmful line of reasoning to boot. I do appreciate those who have jumped up to answer the criticism, but at the same time, I'd just ask that both sides please not pursue that debate – it's not what this thread is for.

==

Good to see you again, Niara! Again, thank you for your dedication and hard work - and my apologizes for engaging in the debate despite reading your wishes of avoiding it.

I definitely agree on all parts regarding the importance of eye contact and physical contact in the form of locking hands or keeping hands on each others bodies to read the body language clearer. It is one of the best ways to show comfort or discomfort and one of the first thing most receivers do when they are in discomfort is putting a hand up in a "stop!"-motion or pushing at the giver, and most givers in a healthy relationship would catch on right away - the signal wouldn't even take a second. It's a important details to include if Larian wants to go this route.


Like I mentioned in a earlier comment - the 3e version (... I am getting this right, right? :|) gives me the GW2 mini-vibes. Although your design is slightly altered to suit a smaller humanoid creature, I believe the end-result would be the same; no matter how you look at an adult mini in GW2, it is *very* obvious that it is an adult. With or without clothes (... There are summer models with minimal clothing for reasons <.<). Obviously, this debate would all be summed up to whenever people would believe halflings ARE more like a short human (aka, the dwarfism part), or an actual individual humanoid creature that just happens to be small (which would more accurately be portrayed by 3e halflings, hobbits or some type of fairies). Although my taste might not match your personal preference for a fantasy universe, I very much respect the knowledge and opinion of the halfling-community and believe that in this particular case I might be in the wrong for making the conclusion of halfling = very short humans while dwarves = very short wide humans. I do very much see the logic in the argument that these two (dwarves and haflings) would simply be too similar.

Anyways, back to the subject. The different combinations between mature body types, body hair, facial hair, hair cuts, faces and clothing makes it easy to distinguish the characters as adults, despite them being shorter than regular medium-sized humanoids. In GW2, even the mini version of the most baby-faced guy in the game would be impossible to mistake for a child - in fact, this is ESPECIALLY true for the less clothed/shirtless version.

There are many boosting elements to add - more mature (not speaking necessarily of sexual stuff now) animations, body language, facial expressions and an adult voice actor on top of all that, and you get a fully SFW (or NSFW in nude scenes..) adult small humanoid.

For skeptics, if imagination is not enough, then simply google "dwarfism" - many of these can be comparable to the current BG3 halflings and I sincerely doubt anyone would mistake an adult individual with dwarfism for a child if you're close enough to actually see them. - Or - if you prefer to keep things fantasy with a DnD 3e touch - look no further than the Hobbits (LotR) with small adjustments and normal feet. Or better yet! Give the Halfling Feedback thread a visit (that was also started by Niara) HERE.

I do hope you get your wish, Niara, and that Larian pulls off this in a clean manner that can satisfy everyone. Personally, I believe that Larian has all the tools they need to make this work out. I mean - short people/small humanoid romance/sexuality have started to appear every now and then as an acceptable thing in recent fantasy series/movies as the common people realize we're still dealing with 100% adult characters, so I bet things will be fine! :] Keep fighting the good fight!

I find it pretty amusing that this thread spiked up to 8k views in a handful of days - that's more than some of the megathreads, I think.

I'm debating whether to do F/F pairings as a follow up here; mainly because I have the feeling from what exists in game so far, that Larian need better consultation on F/F pairings in general first, even before we get to talking about adaptations for smaller character, so I'd probably be doing both together if I did, rather than exclusively focusing on smaller partner pairings... So I don't know if it would deserve to be a fresh thread, or just the next chapter of this one. Thoughts?

Haven't been as interested in the game as of late -- realizing it's just not going to be what I wanted from a sequel but I did want praise this thread and Niara's work.

Why hasn't Larian hired her?

^ Seconded.

This thread was linked on reddit (dndmemes I think) a couple of times; that probably explains the views.

If your post is going to focus more on F/F pairings rather than small-sized - especially if it will only have medium-sized wire frames - I'd vote for a second thread that can be given a more apt title. Then you could add the small-sized F/F posts to either (or both) threads.

O-oh...

Err... link(s) anyone? I'm morbidly curious to see the context/what was said...


If it was a fresh thread, I'd still need to cross-reference... I'd probably format it like this one - so start with a discussion of primary positions and the situations they work and don't work for, but I'd also want to do cross-referencing to the poses I discussed here, and talk about which ones can translate with adaptation easily, and which ones can't. Then it would be discussion moving from where we end up, to what else needs to be considered for smaller partners, etc... I'll have to think about how I want to do it. And work out if I have the time/energy/focus TO do it without over-working myself or burning out again. I have people who care for me keeping a close eye on how much work I take on, because I'm very bad at looking after myself in that regard.

There is a reason I prefer this forum to that one.

Be warned, lots of the posts are variations on "is this pedo "?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/ro2ola/thoughts_on_animated_sex_scenes_and/

I'm actually surprised by the number of people who didn't know that this game already has a fully animated sex scene in it.