"We heard the fan feedback, and we listened, so we're really happy to announce: Fixed shovel: now can be wielded as a weapon!" About lines up with my expectations at the moment, I'll admit.
Is that why they implemented the salami wielding thing? Someone said, "I want them to add salamanders to the game," and they thought the person said salamis?
So THAT'S why stuff like that gets added but we're still waiting for the REAL stuff we're asking for. All makes sense now. 🤣
I made a similar post on Steam. Bad place. It's a no no from me. Either way. This thread seems a way better place than make another OP. So lets blow it.
I feel like after 16 months of development it's time we get a roadmap on future goals and what game content we're going to be getting in the end. No need for false promises or release dates.
RELEASE WHEN IT'S READY.
But man please, we were asked to pay full price to participate in EA and that is totally fine. I'm not a fan of this format of developing and it starts to show why. One starts to wonder after almost a year and a half in Dev, why are they NOT showing anything on what the final product will look like. Silly PFH cosplay time is fun and all, but come on... If "direct communication" makes development better then why, as mentioned above aren't we getting clearer images of it?
Most noteworthy RPG titles in EA or GoFundMe campaigns have clear as day goals on end product content from day 0, and they never pride themselves as much as asking for full price. Only thing that comes to mind is they're having trouble with Covid and everything, which again... it's FINE.
Having said the above, I WANT TO PARTICIPATE in this EA as much as possible, but I just can't because there is nothing to participate to other than trying to break the game and report bugs back.
What I personally NEED real soon, doesn't have to be in the next PFH is at least a rough roadmap on future projects-additions and timetables, and also I feel like everyone woul finally love to know what's the end product content gonna look like, cuz it just feels like from the communications Larian gives us this is something way way WAYYYYYYYY onto the future or something that simply can't be communicated due to complications. Which again, we'd LOVE to know MORE about...
Roadmap Directly addressing common forum topics and/or an AMA Explanations behind implementations of certain mechanics, or lack thereof New class Updated reaction system
Oh, and
Originally Posted by Jess Larian on May 12, 2021 (hotfix #11)
We will be back soon with a larger community update, that goes into some detail about how we process & parse feedback and data we get through talking with you, and the telemetry we have in the game. ‘Til then, sit tight!
This was posted almost a year ago but I have yet to see any significant statements from Larian about this. At this point it feels safe to call this ^ statement a lie.
I don't really care about review panels or official correspondence through the media. That is all too controlled and non-interactive. I would much rather have informal direct participation with the development team right here on the forums. Heck, even crusty John Winski (BioWare luminary who hated forums) would at least sometimes engage in a conversation thread back in the BG II development days. I know how frustrating things can sometimes be on the forums, but overall I think participation with the developers generates a certain personal bond with the players which in turn engenders loyalty to the franchise. And once in a while good ideas get transferred into the game ... no one can deny that fan input had a profound effect on the BG series. It would be so easy for a Larian writer to start a new topic on something like, "What things did you like and not like about the cleric stronghold quest in BG II?" I bet you'd see over 100 replies on that one, maybe more.
I would love to see a roadmap too - but based on my understanding on the way Larian works, I really, really doubt it will happen.
Their approach to game development seems to be UTTER CHAOS. They seem to be a highly "creative people" driven studio, as opposed to the production or the money people. They tend to be way too ambitious and take an "iterate until they get it" approach for writing, mechanics, everything, which tends to destroy timelines and add tons of redundant work when things are constantly being changed at the foundation. In the past, this is what's led them to launch basically unfinished games due to running out of time/money. I don't think we'll get a roadmap because they literally do not know how long each item takes, nor have certain key internal deadlines they're hitting.
If you have the time to spare, I'd highly recommend giving Sven's DOS 2 GDC speech a watch, or the documentary made about their journey up till DOS 2. Links in spoilers.
GDC Speech: Documentary:
Some highlights of note in those videos:
- Only 1/4 of the maps planned made it into the final release of DOS 2. Originally, there was supposed to a land for each race. What we got from Act 1s to 3 (Fort Joy, Driftwood, Arx) was JUST the human lands.
- Voice acting the entire game was a decision they came to around 9 months before release. AFTER they chose to delay it to September. In June 2017, they told the voice recording studio 600,000 words are required. By July 2017, they came back and said 1 million+ words are required. A chunk of this was due to miscounting, but it still shows you the immense changes/scope creep due to their approach.
- Because of the above, a good chunk of the dialogue was actually written/finalized in the last 2 months before launch. The middle chunk of Sebille's origin story was apparently changed again 1 week before launch.
- Revamped their entire combat AI in less than 9 months prior to release. Doing this meant they basically had to hold off testing and finalizing their encounters until the AI was updated.
- They eventually accepted the armor system was flawed, and desperately iterated to try to fix it until the very end, where they basically ran out of time and had to ship
- They have a pretty democratic idea system (which really hurt them during DOS2's development in terms of timing, but it looks like it's happening in BG3 again). Any developer is given a "Joker" card that gives them the right to insert one of their own ideas into the game. This is basically how the Salami made it into the game. Confirmed at the end of this article - a random developer just chose to add it in one day (https://www.gamesindustry.biz/artic...te-3-an-adventure-in-failure-and-success)
- They've had a history of always running out of money (getting close to bankruptcy a few times, i.e. during DOS1), having to deal with publishers and never getting to have the time to fully finish a game. I feel like with the relative financial safety net provided by DOS 2 and BG3 EA, they are going to indulge themselves this time.
This is not an endorsement by the way - as someone who has worked in a similar type of industry (in both production and creative driven companies (though mine had far more of a dictatorship)), the way they described their workflow was giving me anxiety. But it did provide me tons of clarity as to why Larian is the way they are. If you didn't think they were right for BG3, I think the documentaries will basically confirm and clarify all of that for you. It'll also be pretty clear why they'd probably never commit to any form of a roadmap.
Last edited by Topgoon; 03/02/2208:40 PM. Reason: Spoiler added
This is not an endorsement by the way - as someone who has worked in a similar type of industry (in both production and creative driven companies (though mine had far more of a dictatorship)), the way they described their workflow was giving me anxiety. But it did provide me tons of clarity as to why Larian is the way they are. If you didn't think they were right for BG3, I think the documentaries will basically confirm and clarify all of that for you. It'll also be pretty clear why they'd probably never commit to any form of a roadmap.
I found that a depressing read and reaffirms my opinion they were never the right choice for this project nor realised the scope of what they were taking on. I know from experience that any creative endeavour has a certain amount of chaos but they apparently seem to revel in it. It goes someway to explaining the total lack of community engagement; I assume their ‘script’ has had more reworks than a Beverly Hills plastic surgery. I always found it weird that all we have ever received were pre-patch announcements and nothing addressing the pages and pages of feedback. This is really not an ideal way to approach the development of such a beloved game series.
There is no doubt they’re a talented bunch; the success of their previous games is testament to that but it’s not a style that appeals to me personally and that’s what disappoints me with BG3.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, I do think the exact same reason why Larian's production process is relatively messy is the exact same reason why they've also been a pretty pro-consumer, product/game focused-first RPG studio. Simply put, in 2022, if the "money people" are in charge, they would NOT be making games for the CRPG genre. Rather they'd likely be chasing the more monetizable trends and genres (i.e. live service loaded microtransaction).
So even if you don't love Larian's stylistic approach, I do find refuge in that Baldur's Gate 3 isn't going to be a live-service persistent world multiplayer cash grab.
Any studios still focused on making that core CRPG experience will likely also be driven by creative-people, and likely have similar production issues like Larian. Pre-microsoft Obsidian and Inexile, Owlcat, they've all had a tendency to crash and burn just as bad from a production standpoint. If anything, in the CRPG space I would say Larian isn't particularly bad. In the GDC talk, Sven did talk about overstaffing on writers on DOS 2 in anticipation of their own chaotic tendencies (although he also admitted that they created so much work that by the end of the project they were understaffed for writing).
All I need is more upgrades & improvements advancing us steadily but surely to full release. Hopefully patch 7 is as good as patch 6 was ….loving the game ….just make it the best ever !! - no pressure
This is not an endorsement by the way - as someone who has worked in a similar type of industry (in both production and creative driven companies (though mine had far more of a dictatorship)), the way they described their workflow was giving me anxiety. But it did provide me tons of clarity as to why Larian is the way they are. If you didn't think they were right for BG3, I think the documentaries will basically confirm and clarify all of that for you. It'll also be pretty clear why they'd probably never commit to any form of a roadmap.
Geeze. That sounds more like they were filming an artificially dramatic reality TV series about making a game, more than actually making a game. That's not the way you want to do things. There's a depressing term called 'feature locked' that exists for a reason, so you aren't making radical changes when you should be finalizing and polishing. I hope they have more discipline in making BG3.
This is not an endorsement by the way - as someone who has worked in a similar type of industry (in both production and creative driven companies (though mine had far more of a dictatorship)), the way they described their workflow was giving me anxiety. But it did provide me tons of clarity as to why Larian is the way they are. If you didn't think they were right for BG3, I think the documentaries will basically confirm and clarify all of that for you. It'll also be pretty clear why they'd probably never commit to any form of a roadmap.
Geeze. That sounds more like they were filming an artificially dramatic reality TV series about making a game, more than actually making a game. That's not the way you want to do things. There's a depressing term called 'feature locked' that exists for a reason, so you aren't making radical changes when you should be finalizing and polishing. I hope they have more discipline in making BG3.
It's a double-edge sword IMO. Their willingness to iterate and reworking things is likely a key reason why their last few products have been so successful, but it's also responsible for their production chaos. I'm sure studios doing the EA sports games or even the COD games probably have much tighter and structured timelines, but are very also likely phoning it in on many other aspects of design.
As someone who has worked in the creative field, this kind of chaos is kind of typical when you have a "creativity first" studio (though Larian's case seem to be a bit on the extreme side). Based on their learnings in DOS2, it does look like Larian have learned some key lessons:
- By the end of DOS 2, they've assigned a proper writing lead for the story as opposed to a the beginning democracy where EVERYONE had a say (they literally had a Google Doc where anyone can comment previously).
- They are still expecting a million changes, but have at least revamped many of their systems to accommodate it. I.e. automated testing to speed up QA rounds, testing within a "white box" setting (i.e. testing key changes without needing to put in all the other details). improved documentation system so that it limits confusion and messes between writers, scripters, and QA people.
- One of the reasons they've been expanding like mad is basically to accommodate their iterative workstyle that basically requires a lot of time and attention. Different offices in different time zones = more work done on the same thing in 24 hours.
And lastly, to be fair to Sven - last year during the interview where he said that they're only doing PHB classes / content for BG3 was a key feature-lock moments of the game, where he firmly established where they were drawing the line in terms of bringing in PnP content.
I do think videogame developers (outside of the copy and paste stuff like NBA2k22) have a stronger tendency to have these scope struggles because the "canvas" in which they're doing work on is completely unconstrainted. At least for film, a TV show, or even TV commercial, no matter how much you revise your scripting, visuals, or concepts, you're still working within a very tried and true medium and are constrained by a duration (i.e. 2-3 hours max for a movie, 30 minutes for a show, etc). In a videogame, everything is up for you to decide and can be changed. The story, the duration, the gameplay, the duration, the literal engine the thing is built on. It's very easy to get lost in there.
Still, just thinking about how unbound the everything at Larian is, is mindboggling to me. But in a way it all makes sense now. All those times Sven is answering "I don't know" and "maybe" to questions about game features, he's not being cheeky and hiding things from the public at all. After watching those videos, I legitimately believe that he does not know.
It's cute how multiple people in this thread are asking for Larian to "clarify" if the party size's gonna change or if there will be an RTWP option in the game, goes to show how out of touch a number of posters are.
