I'm curious what you think battle personalities should entail. In my mind it wouldn't really be anything beyond a couple phrase barks characters shout out in combat, and I don't really see how that would contribute to world building. Though it would be good for characterizations, which I also fully support.
World Building? Game industry typically talk about Lore, World, Universe, Quests, Story, Characters,etc.
Narrator could help a ton with giving lore to a player, like she could tell stories about the world/lore. Lets say you're close to enter Druid's Grove, before that Narrator might have told some stuff about Druid's Grove to a player, so hes a bit aware. Or two Character in the party might have discussed about it earlier like Astarion and Gale. "Hey, have you been in Druid's Grove, I heard the chicks are hot, Nah, too big butts.
World Building? Game industry typically talk about Lore, World, Universe, Quests, Story, Characters,etc.
Narrator could help a ton with giving lore to a player, like she could tell stories about the world/lore. Lets say you're close to enter Druid's Grove, before that Narrator might have told some stuff about Druid's Grove to a player, so hes a bit aware. Or two Character in the party might have discussed about it earlier like Astarion and Gale. "Hey, have you been in Druid's Grove, I heard the chicks are hot".
Well, world building is generally lore, world and universe stuff. Giving that information to the player and revealing more about the world they're in. To bring up another example I used earlier in the thread, at the start of Wrath of the Righteous, we have two characters casting healing magic on your character by saying a prayer, which provides world building by indirectly letting the player know that healing magic comes via faith and divinity, etc.
What exactly do you mean by a narrator? Do you mean an actual character in the game that exists to narrate and give exposition, or the standard "sourceless omicient voice talking to the player about what's going on"? Either way, I think that's a poor approach. Just having a voice telling players everything is kind of boring and impersonal. And pretty lazy. Having an actual character to do that would be hard to make believable for the most part. Though I would believe something like a magic artifact that's basically a sentient encyclopaedia, but that still feels lazy on the part of the devs. Having two characters discuss things so you can hear about them though is the kind of thing I'd vastly prefer.
World Building? Game industry typically talk about Lore, World, Universe, Quests, Story, Characters,etc.
Narrator could help a ton with giving lore to a player, like she could tell stories about the world/lore. Lets say you're close to enter Druid's Grove, before that Narrator might have told some stuff about Druid's Grove to a player, so hes a bit aware. Or two Character in the party might have discussed about it earlier like Astarion and Gale. "Hey, have you been in Druid's Grove, I heard the chicks are hot".
Well, world building is generally lore, world and universe stuff. Giving that information to the player and revealing more about the world they're in. To bring up another example I used earlier in the thread, at the start of Wrath of the Righteous, we have two characters casting healing magic on your character by saying a prayer, which provides world building by indirectly letting the player know that healing magic comes via faith and divinity, etc.
What exactly do you mean by a narrator? Do you mean an actual character in the game that exists to narrate and give exposition, or the standard "sourceless omicient voice talking to the player about what's going on"? Either way, I think that's a poor approach. Just having a voice telling players everything is kind of boring and impersonal. And pretty lazy. Having an actual character to do that would be hard to make believable for the most part. Though I would believe something like a magic artifact that's basically a sentient encyclopaedia, but that still feels lazy on the part of the devs. Having two characters discuss things so you can hear about them though is the kind of thing I'd vastly prefer.
TBH, I dont know myself. I should EA BG3. Yup. I mean now what World Building is.
The scope of this game is uncessarily too big for Larian imho.
World Building? Game industry typically talk about Lore, World, Universe, Quests, Story, Characters,etc.
Narrator could help a ton with giving lore to a player, like she could tell stories about the world/lore. Lets say you're close to enter Druid's Grove, before that Narrator might have told some stuff about Druid's Grove to a player, so hes a bit aware. Or two Character in the party might have discussed about it earlier like Astarion and Gale. "Hey, have you been in Druid's Grove, I heard the chicks are hot".
Well, world building is generally lore, world and universe stuff. Giving that information to the player and revealing more about the world they're in. To bring up another example I used earlier in the thread, at the start of Wrath of the Righteous, we have two characters casting healing magic on your character by saying a prayer, which provides world building by indirectly letting the player know that healing magic comes via faith and divinity, etc.
What exactly do you mean by a narrator? Do you mean an actual character in the game that exists to narrate and give exposition, or the standard "sourceless omicient voice talking to the player about what's going on"? Either way, I think that's a poor approach. Just having a voice telling players everything is kind of boring and impersonal. And pretty lazy. Having an actual character to do that would be hard to make believable for the most part. Though I would believe something like a magic artifact that's basically a sentient encyclopaedia, but that still feels lazy on the part of the devs. Having two characters discuss things so you can hear about them though is the kind of thing I'd vastly prefer.
Given that this game has a "GM" giving us information, have you even played? There's a "narrator" for Us, there's a "narrator" every time our tadpole interacts with another tadpole as well. There's a narrator every time we force an interaction with the tadpole too. Lots of feedback from a "narrator" already in game for you to not understand what it means. If you have played, and still don't understand, this points to a completely different issue, and Larian can't fix that.
I've played, I just was confused about what GreatWarrioX specifically had in mind for the narrator. I have no issue with the narrator as they exist now, it does what a narrator should do. It just felt to me like Great was describing a different style of narration than what's already present, so I wanted to make sure we were on the same page.
However I maintain that not being able to talk with Asterion about Baldur's Gate is a massive missed opportunity that I hope gets ammended by the time of full release.
What would Astarion have to say, really? Depending on how honest he is, he either remembers very little of his mortal life, or wouldn't want to discuss it because it'd paint him in a terrible light. As a spawn, he was only let outside to lure people to Cazador's dinner table. So what is there in terms of conversation? Which taverns are best to pick up strangers at?
Shadowheart is too missing a lot of her memories. Only Wyll seems like he'd be up for a chat, but then another problem: what would you have to talk about? Baldur's Gate is not a small city, and Wyll is a noble turned Flaming Fist turned local celebrity. Maybe if you're a noble or another hero you'll have some shared experiences to talk about, and those I think will get some acknowledgement once the background tags are properly implemented. But what would he have to say to an urchin or a guild artisan? You're in completely different social circles, walking completely different paths in life, and have completely different experiences of the city.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but if I meet someone from the same city while travelling, the place itself will be a conversation starter at best.
It'd be good if companions asked you about yourself though. All too often in these games it's you interrogating everybody else, and never the other way around. I want to know everyone's history, why don't the others want to know mine? PoE did a little bit of that in the beginning, and it was very nice to flesh out my character's background beyond the option at character creation.
However I maintain that not being able to talk with Asterion about Baldur's Gate is a massive missed opportunity that I hope gets ammended by the time of full release.
What would Astarion have to say, really? Depending on how honest he is, he either remembers very little of his mortal life, or wouldn't want to discuss it because it'd paint him in a terrible light. As a spawn, he was only let outside to lure people to Cazador's dinner table. So what is there in terms of conversation? Which taverns are best to pick up strangers at?
Shadowheart is too missing a lot of her memories. Only Wyll seems like he'd be up for a chat, but then another problem: what would you have to talk about? Baldur's Gate is not a small city, and Wyll is a noble turned Flaming Fist turned local celebrity. Maybe if you're a noble or another hero you'll have some shared experiences to talk about, and those I think will get some acknowledgement once the background tags are properly implemented. But what would he have to say to an urchin or a guild artisan? You're in completely different social circles, walking completely different paths in life, and have completely different experiences of the city.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but if I meet someone from the same city while travelling, the place itself will be a conversation starter at best.
It'd be good if companions asked you about yourself though. All too often in these games it's you interrogating everybody else, and never the other way around. I want to know everyone's history, why don't the others want to know mine? PoE did a little bit of that in the beginning, and it was very nice to flesh out my character's background beyond the option at character creation.
The main reason it's a missed opportunity is precisely becuse it's an opportunity to build both their and your character. The same goes for Wyll. He can talk about his perspective of Baldur's Gate as someone high class, and depending on how you're roleplaying your character (assuming they stick with the idea you're a Baldurian by default) you can compare and contrast your feelings over the place. Maybe you hate Baldur's Gate, maybe you love it. If you're an urchin or an artisan, then that's an opportunity for you to clash based on your different upbringings and perspectives on the city. It's an opportunity for you as the character to better define your own history and inner life. And for Asterion, they could have it be that he's unfamiliar with aspects of Baldur's Gate that he probably should know, and it's an opportunity to subtly set up that he's not who he says he is. There's lots of opportunity there that's so far left untouched.
Also, I heartily agree with you about more people asking about us. I loved how they did it in PoE.
However I maintain that not being able to talk with Asterion about Baldur's Gate is a massive missed opportunity that I hope gets ammended by the time of full release.
What would Astarion have to say, really? Depending on how honest he is, he either remembers very little of his mortal life, or wouldn't want to discuss it because it'd paint him in a terrible light. As a spawn, he was only let outside to lure people to Cazador's dinner table. So what is there in terms of conversation? Which taverns are best to pick up strangers at?
Shadowheart is too missing a lot of her memories. Only Wyll seems like he'd be up for a chat, but then another problem: what would you have to talk about? Baldur's Gate is not a small city, and Wyll is a noble turned Flaming Fist turned local celebrity. Maybe if you're a noble or another hero you'll have some shared experiences to talk about, and those I think will get some acknowledgement once the background tags are properly implemented. But what would he have to say to an urchin or a guild artisan? You're in completely different social circles, walking completely different paths in life, and have completely different experiences of the city.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but if I meet someone from the same city while travelling, the place itself will be a conversation starter at best.
It'd be good if companions asked you about yourself though. All too often in these games it's you interrogating everybody else, and never the other way around. I want to know everyone's history, why don't the others want to know mine? PoE did a little bit of that in the beginning, and it was very nice to flesh out my character's background beyond the option at character creation.
The main reason it's a missed opportunity is precisely becuse it's an opportunity to build both their and your character. The same goes for Wyll. He can talk about his perspective of Baldur's Gate as someone high class, and depending on how you're roleplaying your character (assuming they stick with the idea you're a Baldurian by default) you can compare and contrast your feelings over the place. Maybe you hate Baldur's Gate, maybe you love it. If you're an urchin or an artisan, then that's an opportunity for you to clash based on your different upbringings and perspectives on the city. It's an opportunity for you as the character to better define your own history and inner life. And for Asterion, they could have it be that he's unfamiliar with aspects of Baldur's Gate that he probably should know, and it's an opportunity to subtly set up that he's not who he says he is. There's lots of opportunity there that's so far left untouched.
Also, I heartily agree with you about more people asking about us. I loved how they did it in PoE.
Why can't I clash over personality instead? Why does character building have to focus on where they're from, instead of who they are? More accurately, I guess, is why does "where they're from" even matter. It wouldn't matter if Asterion was from Baldur's Gate, or Luskan, since our initial meeting, and first camp scenes are contentious, to say the least. Are you implying that if he wasn't from Baldur's Gate, he'd behave differently?
This brings me to the biggest disconnect I've seen in these forums, pretty consistently; why are players acting like they've played the whole game? To wit: "Gale doesn't talk about Waterdeep." What conversations does he have in Act 2? What about Act 3? Is Waterdeep going to be relevant to our current story, or a bit of exposition for the sake of exposition? Things like "I've played x hours in EA, and I still don't know who the Absolute is, so "bad writing"" is a thing too. It may even be in this very thread, this time...
At the end of the day, I'm more concerned with missing content. I'm concerned that Gale's romance arc is so hard to achieve, even if I don't particularly care to romance him. It shows me that something is broken and needs attention. That's a lot more relevant than "he doesn't talk about Waterdeep", and I feel the need to add "yet" to that, because I have no idea what's on the table for the rest of the game. I'm concerned with how much is tied to LRs, with no indications that you need to take them, which is how I've managed to miss a majority of the camp scenes, because I'm rarely there. Note here that I'm not talking about content from future acts, but content that is already in the game, and can be easily missed.
We absolutely can clash over personality, andI 'm sure that we will. A conversation about Baldur's Gate would simply be a good catalyst for that sort of clash that would also provide a chance for the player to learn more about the world and also give the player a chance to place their character more firmly in the world. It's an opportunity to do multiple things at once. As for him behaving differently, I don't know, because I don't know what sort of culture he'd have grown up in if he'd grown up in either of those places, since the places you grow up in and develop in do have an impact on your personality. His whole situation with Cazador would obviously have more of an impact, but the specifics are all just "what ifs" that aren't worth getting into.
I'm just trying to highlight some stuff that I feel really should be covered in act one that I don't think has been covered yet. The Waterdeep example I've given isn't a great one, and I agree that something like knowing what the Absoluteis is a mystery to unfold throughout the game.
The main reason it's a missed opportunity is precisely becuse it's an opportunity to build both their and your character. The same goes for Wyll. He can talk about his perspective of Baldur's Gate as someone high class, and depending on how you're roleplaying your character (assuming they stick with the idea you're a Baldurian by default) you can compare and contrast your feelings over the place. Maybe you hate Baldur's Gate, maybe you love it. If you're an urchin or an artisan, then that's an opportunity for you to clash based on your different upbringings and perspectives on the city. It's an opportunity for you as the character to better define your own history and inner life. And for Asterion, they could have it be that he's unfamiliar with aspects of Baldur's Gate that he probably should know, and it's an opportunity to subtly set up that he's not who he says he is. There's lots of opportunity there that's so far left untouched.
Also, I heartily agree with you about more people asking about us. I loved how they did it in PoE.
No disagreemements here, a conversation about living in Baldur's Gate can flesh out both characters and showcase their different perspectives on life. The question is: would that conversation happen in the first place?
My main concern in this is that I don't want the dialogue to sound unnatural (it's also why I'm against most expository dialogue). The standard practice in RPGs is dialogue-as-a-questionnaire: you go down a list of questions and the NPC diligently answers every one of them, no matter who they are and what circumstances surround them. You can chain these questoins with little to no transition or flow between them, and the NPC will not bat an eye. I don't need to tell anybody this, but people don't talk like that unless they're on a job interview. Things are usually better during quest-related or other important conversations, but the regular unscripted dialogue suffers badly from this. Just look at Shadowheart's repeatable dialogue to see what I'm talking about. This is a very old issue, and I'll keep complaining about it until videogame writers learn better.
That is why, in my opinion, it's important to examine how a potential conversation could start. A clash of personalities, lifestyles, and values can happen during any kind of conversation, so we should pick those that won't make the characters sound like robots. In my previous post I've outlined why I don't think a conversation about living in Baldur's Gate can start in a natural way, so I don't consider a lack of one to be a lost opportunity.
And robertthebard is right too of course. We don't know what kinds of conversations we'll get at release, and what is already there will likely get some polish. It's all up in the air.
So Bethesda used a plethora of books to explain the backstory of the world, it was clunky, but mostly ignorable, you read them the first time, got the background, then ignored them in consecutive playthroughs, and really, Bethesda isn't good at CRPGs, but Skyrim was a roaring success. They did this in at least the last two Elder Scrolls games.
Pathfinder found a different way to get that information across, from the looks of that screen shot, it seems far more intuitive.
The Forgotten Realms has reams of information available about it, but the player doesn't need to know about Thay, they don't need to know about Zhentil Keep, they need information about the local geography, the relevent gods, and data that influences the story. There isn't a call for an in depth history of Icewind Dale here, but a bit of information on what the Underdark is about, what might be encountered there, and a bit of lore available to the common man might not be out of place. It wouldn't hurt for your character to find a map of the sword coast for instance, even if your location on that map is not clear.
The devs have already used a bard to tell a tale, though it could have provided actual information rather than being used to create a wierd story element. They have books, though really, they are just as clunky as they are in other games, so I hope they don't over use them. I personally don't intend to carry a library in my inventory. I do see the appeal when you consider cross platform gaming however.
We have yet to come across a tavern in EA, but installing a bard in a tavern that sings tales of the sword coast in the background could also be of benefit for general information.
We have yet to come across a tavern in EA, but installing a bard in a tavern that sings tales of the sword coast in the background could also be of benefit for general information.
What if I dont want to get information while Im at Tavern?
I think one should be able to ask from Narrator, when the player feels the time is right. More flexibility you give to a player, the better it is. Do I want to battle now. Should I think my build. I want get into Lore. I want to chat with this Character etc. Now Im ready for long quest, etc. I wish I would do whatever of those whenever I want. I think its bad design, if games gives you tons of information/lore, if you dont want to get it.
We have yet to come across a tavern in EA, but installing a bard in a tavern that sings tales of the sword coast in the background could also be of benefit for general information.
What if I dont want to get information while Im at Tavern?
Then just don't click on the bard at the tavern??? Or, if the bard sings it automatically, just tune out their song as background music and/or don't wait around in the tavern to hear the entire song.
There shouldn't be hugely important information that requires listening to a bard, but background information about the world that is just nice to know.
Originally Posted by GreatWarrioX
I think one should be able to ask from Narrator, when the player feels the time is right. More flexibility you give to a player, the better it is. [...] I think its bad design, if games gives you tons of information/lore, if you dont want to get it.
Agreed that information that is more relevant to areas you'll explore/people you'll meet should come from specific clicks on a book/NPC.
Progressive disclosure of information. Use the loading screens to give information about the world. Include item lore on magical items, as was done in the other games. Bits and pieces of knowledge here and there, told as stories, rather than flat facts. Tooltips that become available during conversations that would let players have optional access to additional information on the topics in their conversations. Volo should open up access to a library with info on the areas traveled, people you’ve met, cultures, monsters fought, and other things to provide additional knowledge to players. Standard townsfolk questioning, but be creative.
If there was some more built in downtime, or if the downtime we get was used to spiel out some lore, I think the game would probably benefit.
I don't personally have a big issue with it right now, but considering how many conversations around things like Shar there have been, doing some more groundwork might help.
We have yet to come across a tavern in EA, but installing a bard in a tavern that sings tales of the sword coast in the background could also be of benefit for general information.
We have yet to come across a tavern in EA, but installing a bard in a tavern that sings tales of the sword coast in the background could also be of benefit for general information.
What if I dont want to get information while Im at Tavern?
Then just don't click on the bard at the tavern??? Or, if the bard sings it automatically, just tune out their song as background music and/or don't wait around in the tavern to hear the entire song.
There shouldn't be hugely important information that requires listening to a bard, but background information about the world that is just nice to know.
From Larian's point of view, you want player to listen/read all information, because they spend more time in the game. Lots of games are trying to do this but then you end up with loads of lore/information to read. You have 20 tutorials, 20 location, 20 weapon type, 20 character bio to read etc.
Narrator tells you about the Tutorials, Locations, Weapon Types and Characters when you feel the time is right, sounds like the best way.
I played AC Vahalla DCLs 1 month back and it had so muuuch info, I wouldnt bother get into them. Hopefully Larian finds good solution, especially its CRPG.
Sorry for necroing this thread but I think this reddit post is on topic and kind of strengthens the argument that Larian needs to take internal consistency more serious if they wish to call bg3 a game set in an immersive fantasy world.
if they wish to call bg3 a game set in an immersive fantasy world.
Do they tho?
I mean no offense, but imagining myself on Swens position i would be quite satisfied with delivering game that many people will enjoy, most importantly will buy, and therefore earn me ridiculous amount of money.
Sure there will be people complaining about how things should have ben different, and how it would be better ... they are allways there, no matter how hard you try to make the game to their liking ... if you satisfy one, you will make another angry, this is how it is.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
