Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

The 300 kick?

I'd like to be able to kick when playing other classes too. It's basic.

From the PfH, I can't tell exactly how throw works (both the picking up and the throwing at an enemy parts), but I did notice that:

1.) Picking up and enemy and throwing them never(?) failed, at least not that I noticed while skimming through the gameplay.
2.) Actually hitting the enemy could fail, but the thrown goblin still took damage (~4)
3.) Hitting an enemy did 8 damage to both targets (roughly equal to normal weapon damage).

I'm assuming that #1 was just due to pure luck, because if not that is so so so bad. At the absolute minimum, picking up an enemy and throwing them into another enemy should require 2 rolls.
- An Athletics check or an attack roll vs AC against the first enemy to pick them up and throw them somewhere.
- An attack roll vs AC or a Dex ST to actually hit the second enemy with the first

Damage-wise, the current implementation is too high even with the above ^ restriction, unless my observed 4 damage on a miss and 8 damage to both targets if hit were both luckily high. Assuming 75% chance for both rolls: [ 0.75 * (0.25*4 + 0.75*16) + 0.25 * 0] = 9.75 expected damage. While normal weapon attacks only deal ~(1d8+4)*0.75 = 6.4 expected damage. So attempting to throw an enemy into another on average deals 50% more damage than a single weapon attack. And we haven't even included fall damage into the calculation, or the benefits of repositioning!
Damage should be split or at least reduced if one enemy is thrown into another; they shouldn't each take full damage.

When I made my throwing-wizard play through thread, it was using this style of throwing all the time, and it was indeed more effective than making attacks. It also could not fail, because the throw was a character action that did not interact with the target creature being thrown at all; it *sounds* like you've just descried the exact same thing.

I blame you Niara for this LOL. YOU gave them this idea or you have a talent of foreshadowing. So instead of "Shove" as an action they have "Throw".

See below...

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=807010#Post807010

I have never been more disappointed to have called something than I am right now.

I'm gonna do it. I'm downloading the update now, and tomorrow gonna play it. Barbarian solo shove/throw feat. No weapons. See how far I get.

Imma even take on Zalk. See if I can throw him off the nautiloid or down a hole or something. Who needs his greatsword? THROW/SHOVE BABYYYYY!

Nice and strangely appropriate meme… lol

You can *probably* use the the same trick that people use to long jump into the command room from the start area, to throw Zalk out the same way, I'd imagine.

Man, watching the panel from hell, I really thought that the shove/throw strategies were nerfed.

It shows that I didn't really know that much about DnD 5E at all, or at least never dabbled in these specific mechanics. Or Larian went and changed a couple things that I didn't immediately recognize because of my lack of knowledge in this specific field of the mechanics.

If I am able to do it, it never failed for me either. It seems there is a roll made if thrown character/item will hit the target, but not if it will be picked up and thrown - will investigate further this evening. If so, then it's guaranteed insta death for character light enough to be picked up.

OK. Created Dwarf Barbarian:

Dorm
Str - 15
Dex - 15
Con - 17
Int - 8
Wis - 9
Cha - 8

First battle with imps. Solo'd. Picked imp every time. 3-4 damage every time I threw them. If I threw them into each other, usually 3-4 damage to each. I also picked up and threw into exploding nautiloid tanks which definitely did additional damage. Easy slaughtered all three alone.

On deck. Two imps. Threw them into one another. One died ahead of the other. Threw dead imp into living imp. Killed living imp.

Fought intellect devourer and three thralls. This was, admittedly, a tougher fight. Thralls were too heavy to throw. However, intellect devourer was not. First round, threw devourer into thrall, killed thrall one hit. Intellect devourer did 7 damage. I have 16 total at First Level. Used healing potion and threw devourer over the rail. Took half its health off when it fell to the lower deck. Shoved thrall 2 to railing. 2 rounds later, shoved thrall 2 completely off the nautiloid. Didn't shove him down to the lower deck. Shoved him TOTALLY off the nautiloid. In other words, from the upper platform, shoved from edge of railing beyond the woman saying "Bull got me," and beyond THAT railing off into Avernus. Next round, threw intellect devourer again over the railing to the lower deck. It took fall damage and died. Ran up to thrall 3, shoved her to railing, and yeeted her like thrall 2 off the nautiloid.

Next fight, intellect devourer in chamber with lots of pods beyond Shadowheart chamber. Threw him. Shoved him. Threw him again down into the lower area below the pods. Unfortunately, had no choice but to finish it by throwing a single hand axe. Not with disadvantage but 90% chance of success (this NOT with Rage or Reckless). In other words, throw and shove damaged it enough that I was able to kill it by throwing a hand axe. 8 damage from axe, 13 from throw/fall.

Deck fight. Killed both imps and hellsboar simply by throwing imps at one another and at the hellsboar. If an imp died, I still used it as a throwing weapon. (Hellsboars are too heavy to pick up.) Threw some at Zalk as well, dealing 3-8 points of damage each time with a fairly high success rate. With the mind flayer's help, killed Zalk by throwing things at him, smashing brine balls on the ceiling with living imp bodies, and then shoving him into the brine to finish him off. Unfortunately, cambions then surrounded me and killed me.

Reload. Decided to just kill imps and boars and ignore Zalk. This was a bit more of a challenge to do with just shove and push simply because the cambions enter the room after a few rounds and attack you. So, killed all but one hellsboar simply by throwing and shoving. Then I activated the transponder. End of prologue. The only time I used a weapon was because I had to in order to kill the devourer that I couldn't kill in any other way. I had to throw my axe at it or TB would never have ended. It just kept skipping the devourer's turn, not even trying to get out, because it couldn't.

All in all, I'd say this:

Shove/Throw is broken because of distance and throw is broken because of just how easy it is to do. It is far too easy to pick up creatures and throw them into hazards or into one another, thus negating the need for weapons and items at all. I had to use several potions, mind you, but that's because I was soloing against intellect devourers. Still. Too overpowered.

That said, overall, I like the mechanic, to be honest. It just needs to be tamed down. WAY tamed down.

I think that if we attempt to throw an enemy we should make a roll to be able to grab him.

I'm more worried about being thrown, not being the thrower. Are enemies now able to yeet you off cliffs and into lava with no chance of failure? At least shoves aren't guaranteed.

So far i never seen any ...
But since in PFH Swen had to drink a potion that gived him 27Str to throw Gale ... i would not be too worried.

Goblins and Skeletons are coveniently light ...
Too bad for them they didnt eat more soup. :P

So, after prologue. Skipped Shadowheart. Went right to 3 intellect devourers. Two dashed right up to me. Grabbed and threw one into the other, shoved second away, and ran 30 feet. 2 dashed, and only one got a chance to slash at me. Missed.

Grabbed and threw. Shoved and ran. Since throw hit, the one I threw and the target of the throw were both knocked away from me into fire. Fire damage. Maneuvered around, shoved the third into fire and ran.

Next round, one had to dash to get to me. The other two took swipes. Only one hit. Threw. Hit. Two knocked away again, and shoved the third into fire. Ran.

Next round, one had to dash to get to me. Two swiped and missed. I do have a 15 Dex and 17 Con, so Unarmored Defense gives me 15 AC. Grabbed one and threw into another. Hit both. One died. Other in fire. Shoved third. Failed.

Two attacked the next round. Grabbed one, threw into the other, both fell into fire. 1 died because of fire damage. The other had little health left. Next round, one attacked, 8 HP off. Picked up and threw into fire. Died.

Next fight. Grove entrance. (Skipped the dank crypt, Gimblebock, etc. and Lae'zel, Astarion and Gale and just went straight to the grove.) Only the blonde guy with Aradin died. I threw goblins around and helped kill them. The greatest damage I did was at the top of the hill across from the gate. Grabbed goblin and threw him off. Throw + Fall Damage. Goblin only had 2 HP left and was prone. Archer girl killed before I could get back to it.

Fought Bugbear near Pink-Haired Tiefling Nadira. Ran up to him on round 1. Shoved him 30 feet off edge. Dropped two levels. He dashed up to me. I ran down to him. Shoved him off again. He ran up. Shoved him off again. Went up to top of the ledge. He ran up to me and got a single hit on me. Shoved him 15 feet to edge and he just kept going until he landed all the way at the bottom of the cliff by the bear that's fishing near the beach - a good 100 feet horizontally.

AND, since Prologue, haven't used a single potion or long rest. Only short rested once. Long rested only after meeting Nettie.

Maybe I'll go back to the crypt, see how that goes.

I suppose we need to play as a halfling to find out. I personally will wait for Niara to do it.

I'm expecting to be thrown by Ragzlin and Minotaurs at the very least, but chances are, most enemies won't throw you. So, that's a plus. My dwarf barbarian with 15 strength can't pick up elves, dwarves, humans with no armor, so...

BUT... though my dwarf barbarian can't pick up people, Lae'zel can. So, expect perhaps Gith Patrol to also pick you up and throw you and maybe gnolls...

... and GRYM!

They either haven't played it or they absolutely give zero f*&#s that the rules were actually designed to make the game fun through limitations sometimes.

Quite right. If I was a player in a tabletop game where the DM wanted to throw in (pun intended) these houserules and homebrewed mechanics, at first I probably would have thought, "hmmm sounds like it could be fun." Of course then, when I witnessed the mind-numbing hilarity and brokenness of what you can actually do with it, I would have begged for a change. Seems like a lot of players have been begging for a change on these threads for the duration. Also seems like they're being wholesale ignored. Fix Shove? Nah, how about we make it twenty times worse by adding in a Throw-Anything-at-all-ever-wherever-you-want-right-to-death mechanic that we pulled out of our arseholes.

Oof, okay, just oof.

@GM4Him, you and I must be long lost Boomer twins or something, because when I read your posts, I'm reading my own thoughts.

This actually makes me wonder if we are on the wrong forums here.

We should probably be petitioning WotC to make sure we can play D&D instead of Shove'n'Throw Whac-a-Mole with surfaces when BG3 comes out.

Then again there's probably a clause in the contract that Larian can make whatever changes to 5e for "video game" needs. Video games are much more expensive to make than tabletop games anyway and the financial risks are greater. That would also explain why Sword Coast Legends was so heavily altered from D&D, and failed horribly because the videogamey fun wasn't so much fun in the end after all.